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Are you REALLY ready for the negatives? (there are ALWAYS negatives)

Started by Lesley_Roberta, August 13, 2013, 06:31:24 AM

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Lesley_Roberta

Seriously, have you prepared yourself for the aspects of your gender that prior to transition you would have not had to confront?

What I am referring to, is all the baggage, all the garbage, all the bias, all the discrimination, all the stereotyping, all the excesses and the abuses and the risks.

Because we don't get to just waltz in and cherry pick all the good stuff of course.

A girls life is NOT the same as a guys life.
If you are MTF, you will gain some things, and LOSE some things.
If you are FTM, again, you WILL gain some things, but you DO risk losing some stuff.

I grew up in a quasi military reality because of my interests. In the form of a male, well there were a variety of situations a guy can expect. It has not always been the case where women were altogether welcome in the military, and frankly they still really are second class members in the good ole boy club that is the military.

I don't recall females getting drafted much in the past. I am sure a few countries expect service from females. But that is also a guess.
In a crunch, in a situation where you suddenly find yourself in a nation at war, a male will suddenly be confronted with a different reality than a female in most cases. I suppose it depends on how you see military service. Being male during the Vietnam era was a lot different than being female.

I have a friend that is MTF, and has work that involves wandering around various parts of the world for the company securing company property. Every time she enters a male centric society her being MTF is a mixed bag of conditions. Sometimes what is between your legs is a bonus and sometimes it is a burden.

The working world is full of biases we normally just never see for what they are. Every time I walk into a fast food store, seeing a male at the counter always seems 'odd'. It always looks 'odd' seeing a male cashier at a grocery store. Waitresses seem ordinary, waiters not. Male bartenders seem ordinary female ones not. I don't see a lot of female mechanics or plumbers or electricians or welders. You don't see a lot of men sitting behind a reception desk. If two men and 3 women enter a plane in company uniforms, odds are the two men fly the plane the others are stewardesses.
And while it might just might be ok to say well women are built smaller and all that stuff and don't have as easy a time being firefighters. Well a MTF might have the original mass of a male, but don't think anyone is likely to care. Because is you identify as female, you will be regarded as one if they really consider you as one, which won't always be an ideal response.

Right now, there are a lot of places I can just walk into, that I will not be welcome the moment I'm wearing a dress.
I recently asked my mother if they would accept me in the Women of the Moose? She is a long time member of this fraternity and so was my father. They have both held fairly high office. But nope, the response she gave me, was I had zero chance of joining. Maybe she was being a bit too sure of that, but, it did ring true. But I told her, the idea of joining the Moose Lodge ie as a male member was crazy. I have no interest in hanging out with old men. Not that I reeeeeally wanted to join, but, I felt it might get me more social activities. I also thought the idea of going to meetings all dressed up sounded nice. I kind of liked the idea of being expected to be in a dress as the meetings have dress codes.

Bars have ladies nights. I am not sure how that would routinely go.
I know some places are so desperate for attention, that ladies are free, as they use ladies to attract guys that are expected to pay for admission to the event and or location. Again, no idea how that might fly for MTF. You sure no if you are passing as female, if you can walk into an event/location for free and not pay for your drinks.

On the one hand, FTM persons want to be taken seriously, and on the other hand, sometimes being taken seriously means you get to participate in something that might involve a price. Women and children first is an indication that men are likely going to go last if at all.

Some cultures just plain don't value one of the genders, and it's basically females that get the short end of the stick. In the blistering heat a man can take off his shirt and not need to really care. It is nothing for a guy to walk topless down the street in 100 degree weather with their shirt stuck in a back pocket or carried otherwise. Women, even if legally permitted to walk topless, will not be casually unnoticed. And of course if you are MTF and lack breasts, well, it sure makes a mess of your situation if you think you can express your rights to be topless like the other women.

A man can walk into a coffee shop in work clothes that are clearly grubby and in rotten shape and be mostly bedraggled looking hair under a helmet that is a total mess and not feel the slightest bit out of place. He's after all, just a man getting coffee for the crew. Now if a woman walks into the same store like that, she is going to attract stares regardless. We just expect women to be clean and presentable. If they are not, we look down on them.

Both genders have a long list of advantages, but they also have a long list of disadvantages.

Are you really ready to willingly walk into all of the disadvantages, which are unlikely to be going anywhere any time soon.
Well being TG is no treat, but becoming separated has sure caused me more trouble that being TG ever will be. So if I post, consider it me trying to distract myself from being lonely, not my needing to discuss being TG. I don't want to be separated a lot more than not wanting to be male looking.
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Cindy

One of the most interesting discussions I have is the future.

Do you really want to be a woman? (Yes I know that is loaded)

After session one I can usually tell. Session two is explaining what will happen to them, session three is finding out if session one and two made any impact.

I say in three, do you really want to do your make up every day, do you really want to do your hair every day, do you really want to lose male privilege, do you really want to wear female clothes every day and they are just clothes, do you really want guys looking at you, do you really want to go to bed at night as a woman, do you really want to spend every single moment from this for the rest of your life as a woman? Do you wish to go into aged care as a female?

None of the questions are inclusive or exclusive. They are there for a person to think what the consequences are.

No more no less.

I don't want them to answer those questions in front of me.

They do that in session four.

Then I pass them on with recommendations.
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Danielle Emmalee

You have a point that there are advantages and disadvantages.  I don't think they are enough to warrant anyone rethinking whether they want to be true to themselves.  Also, I don't value a large percentage of the "advantages" that men get, so I'm sure that most MTFs would feel the same.   Its an easy decision if all that is keeping me from being a woman are these "disadvantages."
Discord, I'm howlin' at the moon
And sleepin' in the middle of a summer afternoon
Discord, whatever did we do
To make you take our world away?

Discord, are we your prey alone,
Or are we just a stepping stone for taking back the throne?
Discord, we won't take it anymore
So take your tyranny away!
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Jaelithe

You raise some valid points.  All of us should be thinking about how the world is going to change for us as we reach the point where we can drop our 'man mask' or 'woman mask' and be ourselves for real.  Unexpected things are very likely to crop up as different.  I will definately have to fight harder to progress in my chosen professional field, but I don't think it's insurmountable.  If I turn out to be wrong, I'll work out something else, I've done the secretarial bit while wearing my man mask before and it wasn't too onerous.


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Sammy

But after all - do we have a choice? I know there is always a choice, but You do not always get to outlive trying those "alternatives". I often think - can I reverse this whole thing? Making just one person suffer instead of affecting lives of more than one? Having experienced the effects of E in my system, can I return into male shell and shut everything down? I cant exist as an effeminate guy - the concept just disgusts me (no offence meant), but if I have to present myself as male, then I would rather be sort of macho (without womanising, mysogynia and bullying - just tight, sharp, professional, "no nonsense/straight to the point/take your crap elsewhere and just listen to me" sort of guy) - going for anything less just triggers that inherent insecurity inside of me - and I am fully aware why for my whole life I felt insecure as a male - because I never was a male, just a presentation. Yet, that would mean for me shutting all my emotional world down again and I just cant...
So, in short, NO, I am not ready for negatives, but I have no other choice. I have to finish the journey I started to see what awaits me behind that corner.
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Jaelithe

We don't get a choice in who we are, of course not. 

Choices and Consequences. Causes and effects.  We need to be thinking about those more than most people, if you're anything like me the trick is getting your brain to shut the hell up about it for a few hours.  But, as you point out, the consequences of turning back from the road forward are even more unbearable than the road itself.


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Lesley_Roberta

MTA? Male to androgynous? Guess this is correct.

Anyway, while I am not going to make the pointless comment I don't think a person CAN be a not either, because some clearly can be. But I suppose it's like with role game alignments, I don't permit players to be neutral. But I suppose I live in a black and white world, a good or bad reality to some extent.

I was born in this damned male form, and I have lived 50 years in a male realm. There are so many facets of male existence, some will like them, some will not. My list of likes and dislikes is a very long list.

Fate has prevented me from ever knowing so many of the facets of female life. Moments of time you experience as you grow older. I am starting this journey, and the film is already more than half over. I will really only be encountering the life of a female my age, minus a few experiences I am simply unable to replicate.

I will be honest, I simply can't comprehend the androgynous experience. I think the people around me, if not given a distinct female presentation to lock onto, would just consider me male otherwise. I can't picture being referred to as androgynous.
Well being TG is no treat, but becoming separated has sure caused me more trouble that being TG ever will be. So if I post, consider it me trying to distract myself from being lonely, not my needing to discuss being TG. I don't want to be separated a lot more than not wanting to be male looking.
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Sammy

I believe it is much easier to be FTA than MTA, because androgyny essentially was about girls using male presentation and passing as boys/young men. It is easier for girls than guys - unless we talk about teenage persons, since as soon as Your puberty is over, it is quite difficult for a man to pass as someone in between (with few exceptions excluded as always). So for me, Andro presentation is mostly about clothing - I wear male pieces of clothing which given their cut or color could be perceived as being good for women too - slim-fit jeans, V-collar T-shirts, tees with shorter sleeves, sleeveless vests etc.
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Sarah Louise

There are Positives and Negatives to "Everything" in life, not just transitioning.

Its best not to spend too much time worrying about them.  Keep moving forward and just live your life.
Nameless here for evermore!;  Merely this, and nothing more;
Tis the wind and nothing more!;  Quoth the Raven, "Nevermore!!"
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Jaelithe

Quote from: Sarah Louise on August 13, 2013, 08:58:08 AM
There are Positives and Negatives to "Everything" in life, not just transitioning.

Its best not to spend too much time worrying about them.  Keep moving forward and just live your life.

That's exactly the goal!  Though, like most goals, it's easier said than done.  Keeping the lid shut on the demons screaming my insecurities into my brain requires a bigger crowbar than usual some days.  But any progress is better than none!  Onward!


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Heather

Sure I know they are going to be negatives. When I decided to I was going to do this I knew they would be negatives but I'm ok with them. Not because of the positives outweighing the negatives.
But because I'm a woman and I feel I must live my life as a woman and no amount of negatives will stop me.  ;)
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Jaelithe

Quote from: Heather on August 13, 2013, 09:28:53 AM
Sure I know they are going to be negatives. When I decided to I was going to do this I knew they would be negatives but I'm ok with them. Not because of the positives outweighing the negatives.
But because I'm a woman and I feel I must live my life as a woman and no amount of negatives will stop me.  ;)

I don't think I could put it any better than that ^_^


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Lesley_Roberta

Currently the only negative that usually occurs to me, is getting into a vehicle, in a dress or skirt, and ensuring the vehicle isn't a garbage heap of things to ruin a nice piece of clothing and of course the actual act of getting into a vehicle while wearing a dress or skirt and not letting everyone know what your panties look like.

And the hassle of footwear, seeing as I live a life of extensive walking, which means finding attractive shoes meant to WALK in not just scoot from a car to a short distance destination.

And I am very self conscious of my waist measurements. I'm very annoyed with my lack of a bust thanks to how it impacts what tops will look nice.

I'm not overly concerned about presenting as female and walking alone at night in the dark. Anyone thinking I am an easy target will be meeting my custom made cane up side the head :) A hickory sledge hammer handle will do a lot of damage :)
Well being TG is no treat, but becoming separated has sure caused me more trouble that being TG ever will be. So if I post, consider it me trying to distract myself from being lonely, not my needing to discuss being TG. I don't want to be separated a lot more than not wanting to be male looking.
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Lo

Being FtN, and I mean really, not just staying away from ultra-femme presentation, is nothing but negatives. Your gender doesn't even exist in the minds of most people, so they aren't even equipped to acknowledge you as trying to even be something. You have to pretend to be in a transitory phase for medical treatment, and everyone else will always see you as being in limbo. I've said it lots of times, but it always bears repeating: there is no passing. There aren't a ton of negatives, but never being able to pass encompasses all of them. The only positive that I can see is being able to be comfortable in my own skin.
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Lesley_Roberta

To some extent, society will definitely FORCE some things on us.

If I were to claim I was neutral, and I did nothing overtly to be male or female and just wore clothing that was blandly in the middle, the moment it actually mattered, oh you can bet I'd be solidly male and nothing else at all.

I can make a case of being female, if I dress the part, and I clearly go the lengths needed to make it clear I am not joking about it. After all, society is what it is, and no one is going to think I would subject myself to all the negativity for nothing. And even if fate is mean to me, and denies me the chance to change that one damned part, I can at least state, 'well I wouldn't have this part if I could afford to get rid of it'.

But to not get rid of the parts, and just claim that they don't bother me, it would not help my case any. To make no effort to be female, would make me only appear to be an odd un guy like man. But in the end, they would call me just that, just an un guy like MAN. I'd only get treated like an un woman like woman, if I had been given female parts in the beginning and were walking the path of neutral.

Society does indeed put up barriers to us in the form of solid rigid inflexible assumptions. Men are this and females are this. People are used to picking, and it is just a case that in a video of someone dressed in a neutral fashion and not able to get a firm lock on us, they might be disinclined to make specific hard statements if the identity was vague. Fine if all you need to pass a test with is blurry security cams.

I walk down the street and I expect to be able to point to my jewellery and my purse and the fact I will smell feminine and tell a person, no I am NOT a man. I don't care what they think of my voice or my male pattern hair loss. I am perfectly ok with responding with, 'see that person, that's not my idea of a woman either, but I bet she would be surprised to her that too'.

I think walking the neutral path is possibly akin to driving without insurance. Hey you might go years and never once need it. But he second push comes to shove, you might find yourself being forced into realizing something that might be hard to deny. The moment a person truly needs to prove something, it's going to matter what society says, and our own opinion might have very little weight.

I am not sure, I don't have one, but I suspect a driver's license for instance, likely will state we are either female or male. I don't think we get to pick A for androgynous. That may well be the biggest negative to being neutral of gender, the notion that society simply might refuse to accept the choice is even a choice at all.

Hey I am not saying it is a fair thing. Just mentioning it might be just the way society would deal with it.

If I arrive at a hospital emergency ward, I want them to know my blood type and a name that will actually be on some records somewhere.
I carry around my old army dogtags for this reason. One in my wallet and one on a key chain. One way or anther, if someone were to discover me and I was unable to communicate, they will at least know useful information. Being misgendered won't be one of my concerns.
It won't be a tragedy if I am wearing a skirt and they see that I have anatomical attributes of a male and consider me a man. I would be able to deal with coming to in a room where it was me and patients that were men instead of other women.

But that is just one of countless possible scenarios.

Ideally I want to be female to a point that if discovered unconscious, I won't need to explain later I was a woman regardless of certain aspects. But it is no big deal to be misgendered when I am unable to comment.

I think the biggest barrier of being neutral, is there is no real moment when a person will be regarded as androgynous.
Humans are not conditioned to think in those terms. We categorize everything. Short tall, fat thin, colours, hair styles, clothing types. Our species will master self control with racism long before it relates to androgyny in all likelihood.
Well being TG is no treat, but becoming separated has sure caused me more trouble that being TG ever will be. So if I post, consider it me trying to distract myself from being lonely, not my needing to discuss being TG. I don't want to be separated a lot more than not wanting to be male looking.
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Kia

We'll never be able to change people's perceptions of us but those perceptions don't define us. Just because someone sees you in the street and says "oh that's a man." that doesn't make you a man, if you're a woman you're a woman. 

QuoteTo some extent, society will definitely FORCE some things on us.

If you let society force those things on you. Unless of course they're implementing some kind of concentration camp system that I was unaware of, you have the final say in who you are and how you live your life.

QuoteI think walking the neutral path is possibly akin to driving without insurance. Hey you might go years and never once need it. But he second push comes to shove, you might find yourself being forced into realizing something that might be hard to deny. The moment a person truly needs to prove something, it's going to matter what society says, and our own opinion might have very little weight.

I take some serious issue with this, I don't personally identify as gender neutral but do identify as androgyne (though not necessarily androgynous). Australia now allows people to mark their gender as X (see below for a link) so the idea that my gender will never be recognized by society is moot; also with increased LGBTQ awareness and inclusion in the US it's really just a matter of time til something similar passes here. And as far as I'm concerned I'm not defined by the people around me or by the letter on my ID. You have quite a misunderstanding about non-binary identities if you think that something like a medical procedure or emergency is going to force someone into misgendering themselves, or as you imply realize that in fact they are not non-binary.

QuoteI think the biggest barrier of being neutral, is there is no real moment when a person will be regarded as androgynous.

Also just not true. There are people on this very forum who do quite a good job of presenting as androgynous and who could really be either binary gender if they chose to be.

As for the original topic about the "negatives" I agree that we should all have some level headed realism and not walk around with our heads in the clouds like after transitioning life will be all gumdrops and unicorns. Yes they're will be a trade off but, and maybe I'm being rash, I think most trans* people will say that it's a good a trade. I wish my biggest problem on any given day is that my hair is a mess, that boys (or girls ;)) notice me, etc. instead of the terrible overwhelming bouts of dysphoria. Losing male privilege sure it'll be a change but I'd rather not benefit from an oppressive social mechanism.

The way I see it there are no negatives there are many and varied changes and change is big to classified as negative or positive, good or bad. Be true to yourself and live an authentic life, and yeah sure don't be careless and stay realistic; in the end though the changes that will happen in your life shouldn't deter you from being your true self.


(aforementioned link: http://www.news.com.au/lifestyle/relationships/m-f-or-x-third-gender-now-official/story-fnet0gt3-1226663485211)
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Antonia J

Quote from: -Emily- on August 13, 2013, 07:51:15 AM
But after all - do we have a choice? I know there is always a choice, but You do not always get to outlive trying those "alternatives". I often think - can I reverse this whole thing? Making just one person suffer instead of affecting lives of more than one? Having experienced the effects of E in my system, can I return into male shell and shut everything down? I cant exist as an effeminate guy - the concept just disgusts me (no offence meant), but if I have to present myself as male, then I would rather be sort of macho (without womanising, mysogynia and bullying) - going for anything less just triggers that inherent insecurity inside of me - and I am fully aware why for my whole life I felt insecure as a male - because I never was a male, just a presentation. Yet, that would mean for me shutting all my emotional world down again and I just cant...
So, in short, NO, I am not ready for negatives, but I have no other choice. I have to finish the journey I started to see what awaits me behind that corner.

Well said.  You just put into words a fuzzy set of thoughts I have had for several days.  Nicely done :)

Toni
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Lesley_Roberta

I wish people would stop shooting the messenger, I don't make this stuff up.

I don't post just to be nasty.

I don't have a problem with people regardless of how the rest of society behaves, but I am fully aware of how society DOES behave.

I'm glad Kia can inform me that in Australia a person can mark an X for gender, but that X is not going to be much comfort in some cases.

I'd rather the form had no place to mark gender at all. I mean, there are limitations on the worth of the knowledge in an emergency. If I stumble into a hospital badly injured, my gender is going to have limits on how to help me.

Society though, sometimes we can fight back, and sometimes not. It depends on what you are fighting for and it often depends on where. I have a friend that works in nations around the world, where being female is actually a disadvantage, so it plays hell on her being a transwoman who is still on the journey. It will be a problem for her after her journey reaches the goal too to a point. Depending on the specific places she ends up in. Australia is a lot nicer place to be female than Saudi Arabia that's for sure.

I think being androgynous and born in a female form, and visiting Saudi Arabia dressed as a man, well the X on a document will likely do precious little for you there, even if it works just fine in Australia.

When I say 'society' I'm talking planet earth.

Every day I walk out my door, I am reminded how damned glad I am to have been born in Canada.
I can think of soo many places where being transgender, would be nothing but a curse that would never be lifted.
As we speak, if I lived in Russia, I'd be contemplating leaving if I had to get up and walk out on foot.
Well being TG is no treat, but becoming separated has sure caused me more trouble that being TG ever will be. So if I post, consider it me trying to distract myself from being lonely, not my needing to discuss being TG. I don't want to be separated a lot more than not wanting to be male looking.
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Horizon

There may be advantages and disadvantages to everything, but the "drawbacks" are really of benefit to me in this case.  I've always been very short and fairly scrawny, so I've never had "male privilege" anyway.  In fact, I get more male ridicule than privilege.  I can't lose something I've never had, but I can gain so much more.
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Lesley_Roberta

As I said, I have friends that are like me, transwoman, and they have work that involves them coming and going professionally from countries like Saudi Arabia all the time for reasons of work.

Now me, I have zero desire to travel. If someone offered me a trip to the upcoming Olympics in Russia all expenses paid, I'd laugh and say nope, go to that homophobic country? Not even though so much of the history that interests me was made there.

But that limitation is entirely based on my being who I am, and that country being entirely what they seem intent on being recently. Amazing what the difference a year can make. 2 years ago I would have not been the me I am, and that country had not embraced legally being homophobic. Otherwise there are some very famous places in Russia.

Some qualities though as mentioned by Horizon just now, are to us actually perks.
I too am a short person where average heights is concerned. But being 5'7 is a bonus when it comes to wearing high heels (if I was inclined to wear the dumb things). Because going from 5'7 to 5'10 is nothing.
Well being TG is no treat, but becoming separated has sure caused me more trouble that being TG ever will be. So if I post, consider it me trying to distract myself from being lonely, not my needing to discuss being TG. I don't want to be separated a lot more than not wanting to be male looking.
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