No one has to apologize to us for not being on T. I'm sorry if you want to be and can't. But that's different. Perhaps  you want to start your own thread though?? This particular guy is on T but does not feel he has made any changes. Of course, most of us here disagree.

--Jay

Quote from: aleon515 on August 12, 2013, 09:33:20 AM
No one has to apologize to us for not being on T. I'm sorry if you want to be and can't. But that's different. Perhaps  you want to start your own thread though?? This particular guy is on T but does not feel he has made any changes. Of course, most of us here disagree.

--Jay

I understand that and the reason i posted that was to give understanding (i also stated i would be in his spot as well IF i was on it) but also to say,sometimes we forget and become consumed by our need,forgetting that others arent as lucky to have it at all.Please dont see it as negative,because it was far from it.And no,he had no reason to be sorry for my bad luck and was very kind of him to say so anyway.We become so eager and even anxiety takes over,the longer we wait.We start patient but that slowly starts to crack,the more the need grows.Once we have what we need,everything seems good.We feel it flowing through our veins,we feel its effects and we *know* we are a step closer to where we belong.I guess it has become a habit for me to see people *not* so thankful for what they do have (no way saying that he is saying this of course) but with that and just being irritated at the time,i felt a gentle reminder was in order.forgive me if i stepped out of line

Quote from: Jack_M on August 10, 2013, 09:38:55 PM
Your expectations are whacked. Unless you got radical facial surgery you're always going to look like you and be recognised. T doesn't make you unrecognizable!  Every video I see on YouTube they still look like themselves, just in a more masculine form. It's especially hard for anyone who was a tomboy pre-transition because then there's not so much of a difference in the way you dress. I get remarks right now near 2 months on T where people say they don't really see much difference because I still dress and act the same, just have a different name. But they're not saying I don't pass, just that they see me as still being the same person (as in personality) and that they're cool with it, almost like this is me being accepted as the real me now. 

T can't change the bones of your face. I think you need to talk to a professional about your issues tbh. You have unreal expectations and a warped view of self. This thread says there's no changes when there were tons. It's like an anorexic who looks in a mirror and sees a fat person. It's not healthy!

I've heard other trans guys, maybe on youtube say people didn't recognize them at all, so I figured I was supposed to be unrecognizable too. I mean, I've seen a few guys that were unrecognizable and some that looked the same just more masculine.

Quote from: Chaos on August 12, 2013, 08:37:45 AM

[I'm sorry your not on T yet. I hope you are able to get it soon. Are you anywhere near to getting on it?

No but im working as hard as i can and spending almost ALL my time on the phone.im currently having issues with insurance and plus i live in a place that is limited on resources but they are only offered to certain types of people (good money,good insurance,certain locations) and its proving to be a huge challenge.But i will or ill die trying (mixed feelings on that one meh)

I hope your able to get it. Can you pay out of pocket for your T? I did that for a year with no job. I was lucky I had money saved. Plus, my grandfather gave me $20 a week b/c I had no income...and over 2 years later I still have no income, lol. Friday will be only 3 days pay for a temp job I had.

Quote from: Jack_M on August 11, 2013, 06:19:05 PM
Opposite gender twin! Perfect! I'm so nicking that.

I guess if you look at John and Joan Cussak that's a good comparison too. Like John would be the result if Joan was on our journey because they look VERY much alike! Lol. I know I'm going to look like my brother. My dad would sometimes mix us up in photos pre-T, unless height was obvious because my brother is 6'4"!!!

And yeah, Jay, definitely seems like we're in the same place. Some have remarked that somehow they expected more to change but now they think about it they realise there wasn't much to change and this has always been me. So all they know to expect now is voice and facial hair changes.

And yeah, we are who we are, I don't want to lose who I am to become the real me, I just want myself and the world to see the true me on the outside. Not a new person; the true ME!

I think Joan and John look different. I don't see where they look like twins, I guess that's just me though.

I don't know why you'd WANT to be unrecognizable. I think there would be a feeling of unconnectedness. But anyway as long as you look male, I don't know why you have such a strong feeling about that. I'm sure all the people on youtube DON'T say this. Go look at the 1 year shots. Interesting how some people do not change that much. The difference between a male and female face *are* subtle.

As for people saying other people don't recognize them. I think perhaps it's because other people might not imagine what someone would look like as male. I have never met anybody I would consider unrecognizable. I've seen lots of transitions.

I am passing at least half the time. If you look at my icon you can see someone who is NOT at built up in terms of muscles. I am 5'1" and 120 lbs. I am also totally not hairy, though I do have a bit of facial hair.

I really think you have dysphoria and you need to talk to a therapist. What it seems like you do here is you take what people say and find the most negative stuff anyone has said (which isn't too negative) and build it up and twist it around to make it the most negative thing imaginable. Then you don't do the things that might make you look more male. Not criticizing that, except that you come here and bitterly complain how you have no changes which is clearly untrue. Heck what you really want to do is pass wouldn't all other things come secondary including somethings like personal style?  If you dont' want to fine. I like guys with long hair, but you know if you liked dresses and dangly earrings (to use an extreme) and then said this is you this is who you want to be. THat's cool. But then you can't actually complain about not passing. That's extreme but cismen who are 5' with long hair won't pass all the time. They will get misgendered. So either you need to learn to laugh it off or you need to change your style a bit.

BTW, you also take stuff that might mean nothing, like someone calling you hun or dear. Funny thing yesterday, I got called dear and (presumably) cisman in back of me did not. So here are possible interpretations:
1. She misgendered me.
2. She not only misgendered me but felt sorry for me due to my shadow of a mustache.
3. She treated me as an older person (either gender). BTW, I don't like my age that much either. Sucks huh?
4. She thought I was "dear" and cute and he was not.
This is a VERY good exercise.


--Jay

Quote from: Dominick_81 on August 14, 2013, 11:57:11 AM
I've heard other trans guys, maybe on youtube say people didn't recognize them at all, so I figured I was supposed to be unrecognizable too. I mean, I've seen a few guys that were unrecognizable and some that looked the same just more masculine.

I think Joan and John look different. I don't see where they look like twins, I guess that's just me though.

T is going to work in different ways for everybody.  There's no rule that says you have to be unrecognisable to people.  More often than not you're passing, and you don't look remotely female from what everyone's seen in your pictures and videos.  You need to focus on what's right in front of you rather than what expectations you have based upon hearsay and a couple of anecdotes, because it's not going to get you anywhere, and it's definitely not going to make you happy.

I don't prescribe to the American stereotype of running to therapists as soon as something goes wrong -- actually, I run as far in the opposite direction as possible most of the time -- or going soul searching, but in this case I really do think that you've got some stuff to work through because you're only making yourself miserable for no reason.  Complaining about things isn't going to get you anywhere, you've identified things you have issues with, now what are you going to do about them?  Are they legitimate problems or are they just things you think should be problems?

Quote from: aleon515 on August 14, 2013, 12:26:34 PM
1. She misgendered me.
2. She not only misgendered me but felt sorry for me due to my shadow of a mustache.
3. She treated me as an older person (either gender). BTW, I don't like my age that much either. Sucks huh?
4. She thought I was "dear" and cute and he was not.
This is a VERY good exercise.


--Jay

These are also very common and loving terms.I get called *babe,hun,hunny,love,baby (erm thats more of an emotional term but yeah)* they are in no way to do with a gender but either 1) a habit for the person or 2) an affection based reaction.So this was a very good thing in my opinion and even if it was a misgendered comment,it was still very high respect then being rude with pronouns and so on.And i agree otherwise

Quote from: Dominick_81 on August 14, 2013, 11:57:11 AM
I hope your able to get it. Can you pay out of pocket for your T? I did that for a year with no job. I was lucky I had money saved. Plus, my grandfather gave me $20 a week b/c I had no income...and over 2 years later I still have no income, lol. Friday will be only 3 days pay for a temp job I had.

I will in time and thank you.I can pay out of pocket but its only starting therapy that is proving hard.But i didnt expect it to happen over night either lol btw i am sorry if i sounded snappy at the time,though i didnt mean to come off that way.You could always seek to have your dose upped but i do echo a few of the other comments.Be yourself in every way and let nature take its course.I love seeing the switchs and changes,how we become our true self.I saw a picture of one woman who was very beautiful but she had plastic surgery on her cheek bones and face and it was sooo bad *_* the outcome was 100% worse then if she had let nature take over and all i could do was say *what a shame* she passed 100% before hand but the point is,it may be slow,it may be fast,it may be small or large but in the end-we reach that goal

Ah, can't see your before and after photos?  Or is it just me?

Quote from: Chaos on August 14, 2013, 07:58:06 PM

These are also very common and loving terms.I get called *babe,hun,hunny,love,baby (erm thats more of an emotional term but yeah)* they are in no way to do with a gender but either 1) a habit for the person or 2) an affection based reaction.So this was a very good thing in my opinion and even if it was a misgendered comment,it was still very high respect then being rude with pronouns and so on.And i agree otherwise

It was definitely not rude. I am bothered by misgendering. But I thought this was useful for our friend here to see that it was not necessarily even misgendering.
I had another option: She tries to use different greetings to keep herself interested.

--Jay

Quote from: Chaos on August 14, 2013, 08:07:11 PM
I will in time and thank you.I can pay out of pocket but its only starting therapy that is proving hard.But i didnt expect it to happen over night either lol btw i am sorry if i sounded snappy at the time,though i didnt mean to come off that way.You could always seek to have your dose upped but i do echo a few of the other comments.Be yourself in every way and let nature take its course.I love seeing the switchs and changes,how we become our true self.I saw a picture of one woman who was very beautiful but she had plastic surgery on her cheek bones and face and it was sooo bad *_* the outcome was 100% worse then if she had let nature take over and all i could do was say *what a shame* she passed 100% before hand but the point is,it may be slow,it may be fast,it may be small or large but in the end-we reach that goal

You don't have the money for therapy? Will insurance cover therapy?

I just got my dosage upped. So in about another week and a half before my next shot I have to have blood work done to see where my levels are.

Quote from: FlyingJ on August 14, 2013, 08:10:30 PM
Ah, can't see your before and after photos?  Or is it just me?

Sorry, I took the pics down.


I just shaved b/c my facial hair just looks really bad. I can't grow anything thick or full and it just looks terrible. I think I pass less clean shaven. I hate shaving b/c of that. I'm so afraid now I'm not gonna pass clean shaven... unless I get a really short haircut and I really don't want to do that.

Quote from: AlexanderC on August 14, 2013, 12:43:34 PM
T is going to work in different ways for everybody.  There's no rule that says you have to be unrecognisable to people.  More often than not you're passing, and you don't look remotely female from what everyone's seen in your pictures and videos.

I know, but I see guys that are unrecognizable on youtube. I mean, they really had some major changes.

In my pics and videos I had facial hair. Without my facial hair, I think it's going to be very hard for me to pass, unless I cut my hair very short again. And I've waited 8 months or more to get my hair this long again. I really don't want to cut it right now. Though, I do need a trim badly so it will be cut a little bit shorter soon.

Quote from: aleon515 on August 14, 2013, 12:26:34 PM
I don't know why you'd WANT to be unrecognizable. I think there would be a feeling of unconnectedness. But anyway as long as you look male, I don't know why you have such a strong feeling about that. I'm sure all the people on youtube DON'T say this. Go look at the 1 year shots. Interesting how some people do not change that much. The difference between a male and female face *are* subtle.

As for people saying other people don't recognize them. I think perhaps it's because other people might not imagine what someone would look like as male. I have never met anybody I would consider unrecognizable. I've seen lots of transitions.

I am passing at least half the time. If you look at my icon you can see someone who is NOT at built up in terms of muscles. I am 5'1" and 120 lbs. I am also totally not hairy, though I do have a bit of facial hair.

I really think you have dysphoria and you need to talk to a therapist. What it seems like you do here is you take what people say and find the most negative stuff anyone has said (which isn't too negative) and build it up and twist it around to make it the most negative thing imaginable. Then you don't do the things that might make you look more male. Not criticizing that, except that you come here and bitterly complain how you have no changes which is clearly untrue. Heck what you really want to do is pass wouldn't all other things come secondary including somethings like personal style?  If you dont' want to fine. I like guys with long hair, but you know if you liked dresses and dangly earrings (to use an extreme) and then said this is you this is who you want to be. THat's cool. But then you can't actually complain about not passing. That's extreme but cismen who are 5' with long hair won't pass all the time. They will get misgendered. So either you need to learn to laugh it off or you need to change your style a bit.

BTW, you also take stuff that might mean nothing, like someone calling you hun or dear. Funny thing yesterday, I got called dear and (presumably) cisman in back of me did not. So here are possible interpretations:
1. She misgendered me.
2. She not only misgendered me but felt sorry for me due to my shadow of a mustache.
3. She treated me as an older person (either gender). BTW, I don't like my age that much either. Sucks huh?
4. She thought I was "dear" and cute and he was not.
This is a VERY good exercise.


--Jay

I thought I was supposed to be unrecognizable...? Everyone I've seen on youtube or maybe on here too, have said people haven't recognized them or they look really different. I'm just going by what I've seen on youtube and most all have had major changes to where they look very different.

You look 100% male to me in your icon. It's a small pic, but from what I can see you look totally male.

I do talk to a counselor. She knows how I feel. She says I look male and agrees that the facial hair does masculines me more. I can't remember what else she said, but basically stuff you guys are saying to me.

They reason why I say I have no changes is b/c I've been told by some of my cousins and other people that I look the same as I did pre-T. I don't think I've had any major changes. I see some changes, but nothing major. I can see weight gain changes, and my face is fuller. I'm not sure about body structure...? I know I have beefed up on T though. Hopefully built more like a guy. I don't know, I guess I'm excepting to have major changes like other guys I've seen on youtube. And I'm still extremely disappointed with my voice. It didn't drop much at all. I sound like a young teenage boy. I want my voice to sound completely male and I want to be able to pass over the phone.

Being called Dear doesn't bother you? I mean, it wouldn't bother me unless I knew the person was seeing me as male. But when terms like that are being used, I have no idea if that person saw me as male or female and it makes me question how other people in public are seeing me. Ya know what I mean?

>I thought I was supposed to be unrecognizable...? Everyone I've seen on youtube or maybe on here too, have said people haven't recognized them or they look really different. I'm just going by what I've seen on youtube and most all have had major changes to where they look very different.

You apparently aren't following quite the same people I am on youtube apparently. The guy everyone starts with "skylarkeleven"-- though i think he was pretty male looking before certainly didn't change completely at all. OTOH, he also aged about 4 years. Aging and T together can do stuff. But I think few people are "unrecognizable". Take a look at him and owenthegenderboy; Ro Walker Mills; upperCaseChase; videokidsam; JackGr8ndmpire;  or and astrog8tr (he's not bad either) for some good channels and also people who clearly look very similar..

>You look 100% male to me in your icon. It's a small pic, but from what I can see you look totally male.

The picture is small but pretty good. You can't see the mustache shadow in it though.
See your doing the same thing with me though. I obviously DO look very male. I also factually do NOT pass 100% of the time. So what are they reading. I have no idea.

>I do talk to a counselor. She knows how I feel. She says I look male and agrees that the facial hair does masculines me more. I can't remember what else she said, but basically stuff you guys are saying to me.


Hmm sounds like a wise individual. YOu should listen to her.

>They reason why I say I have no changes is b/c I've been told by some of my cousins and other people that I look the same as I did pre-T. I don't think I've had any major changes. I see some changes, but nothing major. I can see weight gain changes, and my face is fuller. I'm not sure about body structure...? I know I have beefed up on T though. Hopefully built more like a guy. I don't know, I guess I'm excepting to have major changes like other guys I've seen on youtube. And I'm still extremely disappointed with my voice. It didn't drop much at all. I sound like a young teenage boy. I want my voice to sound completely male and I want to be able to pass over the phone.


You're letting them bother you where they are actually yanking your chain. Adolescence is rarely the same for everyone so that some guys take longer for their larynx  to grow fully. There are some exercises (which I suggest you use with caution) to lower your voice. I am pretty sure they work. YOu also might listen to male patterns and so on.



>Being called Dear doesn't bother you? I mean, it wouldn't bother me unless I knew the person was seeing me as male. But when terms like that are being used, I have no idea if that person saw me as male or female and it makes me question how other people in public are seeing me. Ya know what I mean?

Well I didn't say it didn't. I said that there are ways to rephrase it in your mind. They may be tricks. But still I think you have a very negative view of things so it might help your brain to practice other ways of viewing the world.


--Jay

Quote from: aleon515 on August 15, 2013, 11:24:25 PM
>I thought I was supposed to be unrecognizable...? Everyone I've seen on youtube or maybe on here too, have said people haven't recognized them or they look really different. I'm just going by what I've seen on youtube and most all have had major changes to where they look very different.

You apparently aren't following quite the same people I am on youtube apparently. The guy everyone starts with "skylarkeleven"-- though i think he was pretty male looking before certainly didn't change completely at all. OTOH, he also aged about 4 years. Aging and T together can do stuff. But I think few people are "unrecognizable". Take a look at him and owenthegenderboy; Ro Walker Mills; upperCaseChase; videokidsam; JackGr8ndmpire;  or and astrog8tr (he's not bad either) for some good channels and also people who clearly look very similar..

>You look 100% male to me in your icon. It's a small pic, but from what I can see you look totally male.

The picture is small but pretty good. You can't see the mustache shadow in it though.
See your doing the same thing with me though. I obviously DO look very male. I also factually do NOT pass 100% of the time. So what are they reading. I have no idea.

>I do talk to a counselor. She knows how I feel. She says I look male and agrees that the facial hair does masculines me more. I can't remember what else she said, but basically stuff you guys are saying to me.


Hmm sounds like a wise individual. YOu should listen to her.

>They reason why I say I have no changes is b/c I've been told by some of my cousins and other people that I look the same as I did pre-T. I don't think I've had any major changes. I see some changes, but nothing major. I can see weight gain changes, and my face is fuller. I'm not sure about body structure...? I know I have beefed up on T though. Hopefully built more like a guy. I don't know, I guess I'm excepting to have major changes like other guys I've seen on youtube. And I'm still extremely disappointed with my voice. It didn't drop much at all. I sound like a young teenage boy. I want my voice to sound completely male and I want to be able to pass over the phone.


You're letting them bother you where they are actually yanking your chain. Adolescence is rarely the same for everyone so that some guys take longer for their larynx  to grow fully. There are some exercises (which I suggest you use with caution) to lower your voice. I am pretty sure they work. YOu also might listen to male patterns and so on.



>Being called Dear doesn't bother you? I mean, it wouldn't bother me unless I knew the person was seeing me as male. But when terms like that are being used, I have no idea if that person saw me as male or female and it makes me question how other people in public are seeing me. Ya know what I mean?

Well I didn't say it didn't. I said that there are ways to rephrase it in your mind. They may be tricks. But still I think you have a very negative view of things so it might help your brain to practice other ways of viewing the world.


--Jay

Thanks for some of the youtube names. I just checked them out. A couple are recognizable. I know who skylarkeleven is. I've seen his channel. There are only a couple like him I've seen, but others look really different and had some major changes. I guess I'm just waiting for that facial hair to grow in thicker and better. I think that might help me, along with getting a shorter haircut.

That's weird you don't pass 100% as male. It's hard to judge the pic b/c it's really small, but from that icon I'm reading you as male b/c of the short hair, clothes, and body type.

"Well I didn't say it didn't. I said that there are ways to rephrase it in your mind. They may be tricks. But still I think you have a very negative view of things so it might help your brain to practice other ways of viewing the world."

I see.

Yo!
Another thing you should think about is the way facial hair can really change the way a person looks. Ive known guys who've had staches all their lives but look totally different clean shaven and such. No word of a lie I actually didn't recognize a friend of many years point blank when we first made contact after he shaved his beard he had since I met him.

I know not all trans men have facial hair but I am just saying I saw a "bigger" transformation in men who gained facial hair when really their actual features might not have changed at all.

Some examples:





Lastly. IMO I think it depends on your feature before taking T. Ive had people that I havent seen for more then 5+ years recognize me from grade school . Through the years no matter how much my style/hair/weight changed i still looked recognizable and my base features havent changed.
Don't believe the hype those people are telling you about not seing any changes in you. They are just there to bring you down man.

I've had experiences with people who tell me that I look completely different (and one colleague clearly didn't recognize me at all when we ran into each other in the toilet) and others who tell me that I look the same, except with facial hair. I've looked at my video footage from four years ago, and holy Ned I have changed. But I still look like me.

All of my IRL friends who started transition while I have known them are completely recognizable as themselves. They just look quite a bit more male.

My best friend says that my voice hasn't changed. I am a baritone now. I guess he just recognizes the inherent Arch-ness in the way I speak. And the men in my men's group never noticed a thing when I went from tenor to baritone or light baritone to much deeper baritone. So that was kind of weird.

I remember seeing a clip of you a while back, Dominick. Your voice wasn't super deep, but what struck me was your way of speaking. I talked to a guy on the phone the other day who has a higher voice than you did then--but he spoke with total confidence, so I didn't doubt his maleness. I know that you aren't comfortable in front of the camera--so you come across as unsure of yourself--but I suspect that you project the same way IRL. If you really really want to "pass" over the phone, you might study and implement typical male inflections and speech patterns. It might not help, but it certainly can't hurt. If you have already done that, I don't know what to tell you. It's very disruptive to pass in person but not over the phone. That happened to me for only a short time, but it really did a number on me and made me unsure of myself.

Yeah it's uncomfortable (not to pass on the phone). I think it's just starting for me, but it has been quite a few months between passing IRL and over the phone.

--Jay

Quote from: aleon515 on August 17, 2013, 09:06:13 PM
Yeah it's uncomfortable (not to pass on the phone). I think it's just starting for me, but it has been quite a few months between passing IRL and over the phone.

--Jay

I'm 1.5 years on T and I pass about 100% in person and about 25-50% on the phone. Oddly enough, I don't take it as bad as when it happens IRL. Go figure.

Quote from: Darrin Scott on August 18, 2013, 10:29:49 AM
I'm 1.5 years on T and I pass about 100% in person and about 25-50% on the phone. Oddly enough, I don't take it as bad as when it happens IRL. Go figure.

I don't either. It doesn't feel so personal. I think my range is 50%+ in person, and it's probably not really pass maybe like they don't know about 10% on the phone. I've never been sirred. My voice fluxuates so that the longer I talk with someone I think the more problematic. Might actually be why I was misgendered a few days ago. She initially didn't know and then I talked longer.


--Jay

When I was a kid, I noticed that my father sort of barked over the phone and my mother put on her telephone voice. I'm not saying that you guys do the same thing as my mother, at least not to the same extent, but maybe some of you are unconsciously falling into old patterns on the phone. Or maybe it's that the same patterns, when people cannot see how masculine you look, tend to make them misgender you.

I was at a workshop a couple of weeks ago, and one of the attendees was on the phone during one of our breaks. She was calling her insurance company or something--it wasn't a personal call. And when the person on the other end must have asked her for her name, my colleague responded as if she were asking a question rather than answering it: "Smith? Sally Smith?"

This pattern, and others like it, are so unconscious that we don't realize that we do it. I was paying attention only because I am trans and like to keep track of gendered speech patterns. I know that women are more likely to raise their voices in this way. But, to be honest, I don't know whether men usually do it when asked their name--I know that my ex used to, but not as noticeably as this woman did. And he was a soft-spoken guy who was misgendered in front of me a few times.

I also know that I do not do it.

Perhaps I should listen in on more phone conversations.

Answering the phone with "this is he" with emphasis for people you don't know, or when you call in somewhere for whatever reason start with your male name, as in "Hi, this is _____ and I'm calling about..." could help

Quote from: spacerace on August 18, 2013, 02:40:56 PM
Answering the phone with "this is he" with emphasis for people you don't know, or when you call in somewhere for whatever reason start with your male name, as in "Hi, this is _____ and I'm calling about..." could help

I only say, "this is he" if they ask for Darrin. I think part of this phone stuff too is once you have a legal name change (I have) then they correct themselves real quick after they see that your name is male.