I've been thinking about this for a really long time and I still feel like I haven't got it figured out. I know nobody can tell anyone else what their gender identity is, but I was hoping for some other perspectives on this. Any perspective at all.

Transition-wise, I know what steps I want to take. That won't change whether I decide I'm FTM and that's all there is to it, or whether I decide I'm otherly gendered. See, I don't even know what to call it (the second option)--from what I've read, it seems that androgynes generally identify as somewhere between male and female, or both male and female, or alternating between male and female, etc. But I'm not like that.

This is how I see gender (note: I've left out a lot of gender identities for the sake of simplicity; I apologize if that is offensive to anyone--I respect all of you regardless of your identity):

<----Female----Androgyne----Male----my gender goes here?----Unnamed gender---->

So, as you can see, I feel like I'm sort of somewhere out there on the spectrum, presumably on my own, and I have no idea what to even call it other than something general like "genderqueer" or "otherly gendered."

Honestly, I don't even know for sure if this is strictly a gender issue or if it's something else entirely (if the latter, then I'm just FTM and have something else going on, I don't know what--but the one thing I know absolutely for sure is I'm definitely not female). If it is something else, I don't know what that'd be.

I guess what I'm asking is, how did you all figure out whether you're androgynous or whether there's some other issue (and I don't necessarily mean a bad thing, like bipolar disorder or whatever--I mean "issue" as in "any other circumstance you can think of") going on? Practically speaking, it doesn't matter if I never figure out my gender identity for sure, since the steps are the same either way (since I'd be transitioning toward male or something-other-than-male-but-still-not-female either way). But I want to figure this out so I can just really know who I am and stop wondering about it.

My other question for you all is, do you think it's unethical or otherwise unadviseable for me to tell any guys I go on a date with that I'm FTM and leave it at that (assuming that I decide I identify as this other gender, as explained above)? I have no intentions of dating anyone in the near future but I will eventually, and while I wouldn't want to scare them off with an overly complicated explanation of my gender identity, I also don't want them to feel like I lied to them about who I am.

I'd really appreciate any and all comments. Thanks for suffering through my really long post!

Your post wasn't that long!  And your worries are part of the reason I have tended to shy away from labels.

I suggest you are not alone in thinking you likely sit somewhere beyond the realm of the linear binary.  You know, outside of the Western cultural view of gender, there are many other concepts.  I perceive my gender(s) to have fluidity and ambiguity.

Probably not much help, huh?

Well, until you bring your date over to my treehouse, I can't answer that question for you.
It depends entirely on the person as to whether they need to know, and if so, when.
It would take getting to know the both of you on a very personal basis.
This is something that is for you to decide, once you do find yourself in terms of gender.

Gender isn't an easy concept to work with for many people.
The very idea that you may not conform to the standard male and female, assigned at birth, gender you were told you are, is confusing at the very least.
I've stated before in various ways, as I have learned about it, that binary gender ideas are just that.
Binary thinking. Works for most people on a personal level.
To find yourself questioning the rationality behind that, for yourself, can be one of those times in life where 'falling down the rabbit hole', doesn't quite describe it.

I think of gender, in broad defines, as either Binary or Non-Binary.
Those of us who personally don't like the idea of being a part of the Binary gender role, generally will fall into the Non-Binary gender.
This leaves you with a lot of options, but at the same time allows you to stop having to think of gender in strict terms of male and female.
Your answers to yourself about your issues don't have to be based on that idea and those terms.
Society conditions you to think that way.
For some reason, over the last couple hundred years or so, it was decided that was the only way it works.

That couldn't be any further from the truth.
More and more people are coming to realize this as they encounter someone from the Non-Binary gender or even consider that they themselves could be a part of it.
In Binary thinking, you break everything into three categories.
Male, Female, and things that both can share without having to change their identities as male or female.
In Non-Binary thinking, everything can be shared between everyone.
There isn't a strict identity, other than that you are not just male or female.
While Genderqueer is popular as a term used by many people in the Non-Binary, it is at the end of the day just a description.
The diversity doesn't allow for strict names or terms. There's just too many variations.

It's sounds like you're at a crossroad.
If it's becoming a problem for you, you should look into it further to make some decisions.
On the Non-Binary side of life, this is the place to investigate it.
The only logical thing for you to do is to look through the topics here, both current and past.
The answers you seek, and they are personal to you, are here it seems.
If your journey is going to be FTM, then you should be looking for answers in the more Binary side of this Forum.
If you think that's not going to work for you, then this section called Androgyn is were you should be looking.
The path of FTM is pretty straight forward in itself as compared to the personal paths of everyone here.
We have many paths, some defined in their own way, but mostly they are not.
They do however converge and intersect one another all the time.
It takes some getting used to. You'll have to stop thinking in terms of binary identity.
Your questions and the answers to those questions have to stop thinking in terms of male and female.
Here, those are just a small part of the descriptions and they are used in a different way or definition.

You haven't fallen down some weird rabbit hole.
You've merely become aware that something besides societies strict definitions of gender is a lie.
Explore this idea and see if it is a better definition of who you are.
There are many of us here, some are active enough at times on this forum to help.
You need to better understand the perspective of Non-Binaries.
Look around for answers to your questions, there is a ton of information here.
What you don't understand, ask about.
It's a very personal journey that you're about to take and there isn't a map or guided tour.
You need to take your time to look around and understand why it is a separate gender.
You've left the cities of Male and Female, and have taken a detour from the path of one to the other.
Your standing somewhere at the edge of the vast forest of Non-Binary.
Come on in and look around.
People are pretty friendly and might even be able to point you in the direction of the answers you seek.
We're pretty used to visitors who are just here to try and understand what the forest is all about.

The answer is that you have to see it to understand it.
If you're having problems understanding it all, then you're not looking at it, you're just walking around in it.
Once you get a better perspective on it as a gender, the clarity of your questions will get answers that have the same kind of clarity.
The rules and perspective of Binary just don't apply here.
It is simply a new way for you to understand gender.

Bipolar disorder is a condition of going from a state of depression to one of manic or overly enthusiastic, for no apparent reason.
It has nothing to do with gender itself, although gender issues could be triggers that cause changes that define Bipolar.

Gender isn't a disorder, or even a dysphoria. Lack of understanding gender can bring on a dysphoria type of condition.
It's only treatment is to understand that there are different genders than what society has told you.
In other words, understand that gender can't be defined as strictly male and female gender roles, something quite different from gender identity.

You already know this, you just need to educate yourself a little about Non-Binary to see if it is right for you.
Only you can make that decision for yourself. It's a very personal thing.
But it is one of the more important decisions you'll make in life.
It will determine a lot of things, including your quality of life as you live it.
Ativan

this is how i view gender, found a good illustration of it:


this picture speaks in terms of light... so if you say red is male, blue is female, and yellow is something different altogether (something like mars, venus, and pluto), then white would be the perfect mix of them all, while the darker it gets, the less there is of either. black would be the complete lack of any gender at all.

now try finding labels for every constant in between the extremes, or even better, find something that fits those comets that just can't stay put in one place.
the forest analogy is a nice one too, but nobody has drawn that one yet.

what are you? only you know the answer, but as you can see, if you think in terms of red and blue or black and white, you'd miss out on most of the colors that exist in this world. being confused about it seems normal though, it's not easy to explain oneself to people who only know two colors, and it's also difficult to find the right label when you have only learned of a few color names yet.

remember there are also those funny multicolor pencils. i used to love them when i was younger. if i were to color my own gender, i'd use one of those.

I come in Camouflage. 

Comes in handy when wandering the darker paths of the forest.
Ativan

i'd like to see myself as some fiery orange creature with swirling blood red marks all over, that some times pretends to be pink and loves to dress in a deep purple or indigo. and on the funnier days a bright mossy green.
but my tail is black for some reason.

Come to the Dark Side...

Wow. I don't really know what to say. This, especially Taka's diagram, really changes my perspective on it all.

I guess the thing is, I like things about my identity (not just gender identity, but all aspects of my identity) to be nice and neat and easy to categorize or whatever. I don't like to be in between, or to be unsure, or any of that sort of thing, so this is like wondering if I'm A or J or Z and then finding out there's an entire alphabet of letters, plus foreign alphabets, too, and I could be any of those or a combination or something else entirely.

So, in a word: overwhelmed.

It's silly, because there's no such thing as "normal" and all that, but I've always wanted to belong to something, to just fit in in some way or another--and I feel like I don't fit in with any sort of group, whatsoever. It seems like I'm always an exception to the rule, where I almost fit in but not quite because I'm just different. It would make me feel better if I thought I could somehow fit in, at least, with FTMs, but it seems that's not exactly what I am (though it isn't as if I'd ever feel uncomfortable being treated as such). I mean, I don't have a defined religion (it's sort of my personal philosophy combined with a few spiritual experiences I've had that have very little similarity to any of the major religions), I don't feel like I even have a defined nationality (was uprooted from my home country at age 7, don't fit in there and I don't fit in here, either), and there just seems like there's a lot of stuff where I just don't quite belong anywhere at all--which, as strange as this may sound, sometimes makes me feel like maybe I'm not even human, just because my experience in life and stuff seems to be completely different from anyone else's; I just feel very detached from everyone else because of whatever it is that makes me so different.

Sorry. I'm babbling about nothing. *sigh* I just feel very alone, and the idea of gender being a whole lot more complicated than I've seen it as before makes me feel more alone, because most of the world is stuck on this "male or female" thing and doesn't even get the FTM/MTF aspect of gender, let alone anything more unusual (I assume it's less common to be androgynous) than that.

I just want to fit in somewhere, but I really don't.

Overwhelmed is common.
Like I said, it takes some getting used to.
It's kind of like being color blind all your life and then suddenly you're seeing things in color.
It's simply diversity. Not a rabbit hole you'll forever be lost in.

I can't say this enough to new people here, even people just curious about Non-binary.
Read through topics, follow the threads..., there's a lot of information.
Armed with this information, you will easily get the idea straight in your head.

I'm not sold on the idea that we are a minority in the world under the *Trans Umbrella.
There are some who think they are FTM or MTF, only to realize they are a better fit here.
And the other way around. It happens.

But it is because they have found the information they needed to make those decisions.
Peoples perspectives of how we are as a group varies. Not everything applies to everyone.
But if you are having any doubts about your gender identity, now isn't the time to fall back on tried and true.
You most certainly can change your mind about anything gender related.
But it is something I think you'll find that the more you know, the better your decision is going to be.

It's not a rock and a hard place. It's simply another option available to you.
You're smart, you talk about how you define life for yourself.
This isn't any different than finding out that religion as it is presented to you, doesn't fit your experiences.
Just as you don't care to label that, we avoid labels here as much as we can.
They work only as descriptions at best.

Explore and by all means ask questions in the topics you have questions about.
Both in this section as well as the FTM sections and others available in this forum of Susan's.
You're right about there not being a normal, and also about being different.
We all are here, regardless of whether we are Binary or not. We defy normal and we are different.
Welcome to Susan's and the world where different is normal.
Ativan

Thank you. That's exactly what I needed to hear. 

you really should go looking through the posts here, especially ativan's, and sevan's if you can find them as well.
sevan has an interesting perspective to tell on being bigender, while ativan somehow manages to say just what some confused soul needed to hear.

my favorite thread is probably "shedding some light", it's worth reading a couple times. i got some reassurance there that i'm ok just the way i am. nobody here would dictate how to be a good androgyne the same way that people will always tell you how to be a good ftm or mtf or woman or man or whatever group you belong to. there is no one true answer to any of them, and i think those who see it most clearly tend to visit our forest quite often.

try observing perfectly common cis men and women. even though i say that man is red and woman is blue, those are only the extremes, more of an archetype than an actual person. those two genders inhabit a much larger range of colors, and you can see how much they struggle, and how unnatural it seems, when people try to paint themselves redder or bluer than what they really are. diversity is my favorite part of nature, and i hope people will soon start to notice that forced conformity is futile.

i can recognize your need to belong though, i also have no place where i feel like i truly belong. but i try to make a place for myself, i've noticed that the less i try to fit in, the more naturally i fall into the right categories, and people will also often put me in the groups that are natural for me. not so much gender wise yet, but they do seem to sense what i really am even though their conscious tells them i should be categorized as a woman. i'm still really glad that this forum exists, or i wouldn't have found the courage to start letting go of those masks which do me more harm than good. it's good to have a place where i'm not alone in not quite fitting in.

"it's good to have a place where i'm not alone in not quite fitting in."

Very well put, me too!

Quote from: Jamie D on August 15, 2013, 02:04:06 AM
Your post wasn't that long!  And your worries are part of the reason I have tended to shy away from labels.

I suggest you are not alone in thinking you likely sit somewhere beyond the realm of the linear binary.  You know, outside of the Western cultural view of gender, there are many other concepts.  I perceive my gender(s) to have fluidity and ambiguity.

Probably not much help, huh?

I agree with this. It took me a long time to figure out myself. I came out as gay when I was 17. Started doing drag at the clubs when I was 21 started HRT as MTF at 22 9 months later freaked out, cause who knew I'd grow breasts  Went back to "gay" status met my partner at 26, still going strong 9 years later. Came out to him and my therapist as "genderqueer" "androgynous" or just simply "queer" at 35 (just a few weeks ago. And just started HRT again with hopes of feminization with hopefully little breast growth. As I feel more gender fluid when the need arises that I have to appear "male". I'm taking it one day at a time to see where it takes me. One thing I do know for sure, is I am way more comfortable being feminine and wish to appear more so. But I also know that at least as of right now I do not feel like a trans woman, or the need to pass. I just want to appear more feminine and dress more feminine. I'm alright with my body, face and hair. I just want to love it, so I'm taking the steps to make that happen.

It didn't come easy and it's been a long path, and I still don't like all the labels or even have one I've settled on myself. We are all individuals and there is never going to be enough labels to fit everyone 

I hope this might help, or at least make you feel better that you're not the only one! 

Quote from: Jamie D on August 15, 2013, 02:04:06 AM
Your post wasn't that long!  And your worries are part of the reason I have tended to shy away from labels.

I suggest you are not alone in thinking you likely sit somewhere beyond the realm of the linear binary.  You know, outside of the Western cultural view of gender, there are many other concepts.  I perceive my gender(s) to have fluidity and ambiguity.

Probably not much help, huh?

Jamie, I can completely relate to what you are saying. The gender state is a wide spectrum of masculine/feminine. I think it was much simpler many centuries ago when it would be- Are you the one having kids or the one hunting for food? Probably why the polarization and the rigid roles. My question is  Can someone who is NOT 100% pink (or 100% blue), attain GRS? Is that allowed?

Hi Gina, a large part of it depends on the therapist, who will probably follow WPATH Standards of Care guidelines to the letter. I haven't researched WPATH in regard to your question, but here is the link:

http://www.wpath.org/

Sorry - that link lets you buy the WPATH guidelines. I don't know of a site that has a PDF of it that you can read. Anyone?

http://www.wpath.org/documents/SOC%20V7%2003-17-12.pdf

Thank you!! I downloaded the pdf and it should be a great read! (I've read the first 15 or 20 pages) and it looks very sensible. The structure looks less rigid than the older Harry Benjamin standards. Progress! Do most therapists subscribe to the WPATH standards of care now?   Gina   

From what I've heard, they pretty much have to. So, yeah.

Taka that is a brilliant illustration.