QuoteWhen I say 'society' I'm talking planet earth.

There is no global society, at least not yet, humanity is to varied socially and culturally to clump it all together that way. While yes going to Saudi Arabia presents certain complications for anyone who isn't a cisgendered man all those complications are due to certain cultural aspects of Saudi Arabia and in no way representative of the entire world. While there are still many places where transitioning is not an option due to cultural conservatism, economic instability, or sub-par medical systems; we can only talk about transition consequences in those places where transition is a viable option and those places tend to be progressive western nations, the same nations where people have an easier time traveling abroad to less developed countries.

Lesley what I'm hearing from you is that despite how I identify or the lengths I go to transition people will none the less treat me and identify me as my body sex and I agree some people will. But I choose to ignore those people because I am not defined by the people around me; I decide who and what I am even if I never transition and continue to present as a man I can still be non-binary or a woman. I think this rings true for trans* people everywhere; a transwoman living in a nation where she is forced to live closeted for her security is still a woman despite her surgery status or gender expression.

I can only speak of the society that is relative to me I live in the US, in the West and I'm lucky to live in California one of the more progressive and accepting states in the US. I can say that trans* visibility and trans* acceptance is growing albeit slowly and with great difficulty but nonetheless it's happening. Not too long ago homosexuality was illegal, and now many states in the US are legalizing gay-marriage. Trans* awareness is spreading in the same way no longer are we listed as sexual deviants or mentally ill, GID is recognized as a distinct phenomena and transition is widely accepted as the best option by every national organization that matters. As trans* awareness expands I predict society's understanding of gender and sex will change and stop basing both on the body of the individual. Global change is a bit tougher, will my nation's acceptance of my gender identity change the way trans* people are viewed in the rest of the world I don't know but I hope.

Point is identity is bigger than our bodies and we are the ones who create them, even if you can only be yourself in the most secret and remote of times. People, i.e. society, only have the power over us that we as individuals give them.

I've always been a little bit aware of the oppression women face in society, even if I didn't know much about the systemic nature of said oppression, whilst simultaneously being incredibly confused by it because I held women to such a high regard.

But yeah, I'd be lying if I said I was fully prepared for the huge drop in privilege that comes from being seen as cis male to being seen as trans female. But you know what? Given that if I don't do it, I'll die, there isn't a whole lot of choice on the matter.

"Why do you want to be a woman?" The truth of the matter is that I don't want to be one at all. I want to be able to relieve myself from dysphoria, and the social aspect of transition is, honestly, not as important to me. The one family member I've told is like 'But you don't like doing women's things' or 'You're too masculine' or some ->-bleeped-<- like that. But since when does being a woman mean you have to act a certain way? Screw that.

the positives and negatives that come with identifying as my grandparents' ethnicity... if i don't tell people that i am this, they won't know, but for some reason identity is more important, and i take the right to exist which has been granted by the authorities, knowing that many neighbors would rather i disappeared and never came back. makes me think of the poor colored children who can't even choose to deny their own heritage because it's so visible.

trans people all have a choice, whether to be or not to be. living a lie, or living our own life. both have advantages and disadvantages. i intend to choose the whole package male and female, nothing and both. simply because i am all of that. i don't expect other people to understand my decision and i don't plan to explain myself either. i've been born as a unique mix of genes and environment, and i will take all the consequences of being when i choose that rather than not being just because someone else doesn't feel like the person i really am should be allowed to exist.


looks like i can really relate to the problems of a binary transition at all...

Being Canadian has a lot of benefits, but, then again, it depends on whether you refer to rural or city life Canadian.

Kia mentions the way life is in California. I have not been there, but most have heard of how it is like there in some of the more famous cities.

When I say global, I really mean global though. I have not walked the streets of Europe, and I have not trudged a path in Africa. I have not been to China. But I have communicated with people that have. I can only relate what I have heard when I need to replace is as a source if I have not personally seen.

Sadly I have lived in Toronto, and it bothers me, that in Canada, our top 10 cities, have almost nothing of Canada about them. Because they are just little slices of somewhere else. I have not been to Saudi Arabia, but  have had to stomache news stories of a man committing murder and calling it an honour killing of a woman from their family and they actually thought there was nothing wrong with their actions.

Saudi Arabia is not limited to some worthless sand in the middle east. Everytime something bad happens around the world, I can watch the news on TV and see how the representative portion in Toronto has flown off the deep end about it. I am fairly sure the gay community has been busy heaping hate on the east European portions of Toronto lately. I have not seen any news stories recently, but, I stopped getting cable, so I could stop being inundated all the time with all of the negativity. It was crushing my soul.

Canada gladly opens it's borders to all and to any, but sadly that all and that any, they never leave any of the horrible stuff from home behind.
My mother lived next to a Muslim family in Ottawa. They are great people this family. They are also weird in that they are nice people. They stand out for their accepting nature that made my mother so glad to have them as neighbours. She was treated like a nice old granny by the two boys that live there. My mom regretted moving as a result. They are not the usual fare you get unfortunately.

I don't need to visit the world's various regions to visit with the negativity. Part of being Canadian means I have long ago imported it all. you really only escape it by living in rural Canada where no one really cares what you are or look like for the most part. Then again, I am often surrounded by native First Peoples persons because out in rural Canada you tend to be closer to that cultural mix.

The cell phone has essentially eliminated any notion of 'far away'. There is no far away any more. I chat regularly with a friend that globe trots for work, and Sierra Leon while a wretched country, is not so far away I can't be chatting all day on Facebook with her. She had had a slowdown in her mail just before the current trip. But as wretched as Sierra Leon is, it is not so far modern mail services couldn't get her mailed HRT medicines to her nearly the next day. Heck we were chuckling there are places in the middle of the USA where the mail is crummier.

Our planet is simply not as big as it was 100 years ago. In fact, it has shrunk dramatically all inside of my lifetime.
Of course that will make some of us feel a tad old though
I can recall reading of 'new sciences' that today we likely think have been around a long time.
Plate tectonics is not older than me. Continental drift is not that old a science.
It would take me all day to talk about all of the sciences I have learned that explain why so much of the world's crazy dogmas are crazy dogmas.

But modern tech has made out planet into a single community.
And it has made all of our bad behaviour immediate and real time for the whole bunch of us.
If you do something bad in Georgia the whole world will know of it today. And that is Georgia Russian or American.
I have a model making friend that lives in China.
I know people in the UK, and I have communicated with people from Poland.

When I was a kid, I was lucky to chat with people past my home town though.

We have 1 Jpanese restaurant in town. No Asian section, but we have 2 Chinese restaurants. We have a Greek restaurant. And that is about the sum of my hometown's multi cultural aspect. The town clearly has a fondness for Catholics, as the only schools in town not older than me are all nice new Catholic places. And the fact the Catholics places almost out number the non Catholic schools says something about the town.
I suppose if there is any source of bias in town I would be needing to cope with, it likely would come from there if at all.

I am fortunate though, that this is still Canada, regardless of who has come from where. Canadian law and the Canadian legal code still runs things. It is actually legal here, for a woman to take off her top and walk down the mainstream utterly naked from the waist up if she feels like it. None of the ladies ever do though Some things are just not worth it enough to some people on occasion I can enjoy the fact that I CAN be all that I want to be here, and my life is not in any danger for it. Unless my family comes from some oppressive region and they selectively ignore some portions of Canadian law in the process.

Let me tell you, if I ever catch a man hurting a woman in my presence, they are going to get a fine taste of my sledge hammer handle built cane. Not in my country. I was VERY happy to hear Fred Phelps and his hate brigade are considered terrorists in Canada and on Canadian soil.
We don't allow eeeeverything into Canada

Quote from: Lesley_Roberta on August 14, 2013, 07:09:35 AM
Being Canadian has a lot of benefits, but, then again, it depends on whether you refer to rural or city life Canadian.

Kia mentions the way life is in California. I have not been there, but most have heard of how it is like there in some of the more famous cities.

When I say global, I really mean global though. I have not walked the streets of Europe, and I have not trudged a path in Africa. I have not been to China. But I have communicated with people that have. I can only relate what I have heard when I need to replace is as a source if I have not personally seen.

Sadly I have lived in Toronto, and it bothers me, that in Canada, our top 10 cities, have almost nothing of Canada about them. Because they are just little slices of somewhere else. I have not been to Saudi Arabia, but  have had to stomache news stories of a man committing murder and calling it an honour killing of a woman from their family and they actually thought there was nothing wrong with their actions.

Saudi Arabia is not limited to some worthless sand in the middle east. Everytime something bad happens around the world, I can watch the news on TV and see how the representative portion in Toronto has flown off the deep end about it. I am fairly sure the gay community has been busy heaping hate on the east European portions of Toronto lately. I have not seen any news stories recently, but, I stopped getting cable, so I could stop being inundated all the time with all of the negativity. It was crushing my soul.

Canada gladly opens it's borders to all and to any, but sadly that all and that any, they never leave any of the horrible stuff from home behind.
My mother lived next to a Muslim family in Ottawa. They are great people this family. They are also weird in that they are nice people. They stand out for their accepting nature that made my mother so glad to have them as neighbours. She was treated like a nice old granny by the two boys that live there. My mom regretted moving as a result. They are not the usual fare you get unfortunately.

I don't need to visit the world's various regions to visit with the negativity. Part of being Canadian means I have long ago imported it all. you really only escape it by living in rural Canada where no one really cares what you are or look like for the most part. Then again, I am often surrounded by native First Peoples persons because out in rural Canada you tend to be closer to that cultural mix.

The cell phone has essentially eliminated any notion of 'far away'. There is no far away any more. I chat regularly with a friend that globe trots for work, and Sierra Leon while a wretched country, is not so far away I can't be chatting all day on Facebook with her. She had had a slowdown in her mail just before the current trip. But as wretched as Sierra Leon is, it is not so far modern mail services couldn't get her mailed HRT medicines to her nearly the next day. Heck we were chuckling there are places in the middle of the USA where the mail is crummier.

Our planet is simply not as big as it was 100 years ago. In fact, it has shrunk dramatically all inside of my lifetime.
Of course that will make some of us feel a tad old though
I can recall reading of 'new sciences' that today we likely think have been around a long time.
Plate tectonics is not older than me. Continental drift is not that old a science.
It would take me all day to talk about all of the sciences I have learned that explain why so much of the world's crazy dogmas are crazy dogmas.

But modern tech has made out planet into a single community.
And it has made all of our bad behaviour immediate and real time for the whole bunch of us.
If you do something bad in Georgia the whole world will know of it today. And that is Georgia Russian or American.
I have a model making friend that lives in China.
I know people in the UK, and I have communicated with people from Poland.

When I was a kid, I was lucky to chat with people past my home town though.

We have 1 Jpanese restaurant in town. No Asian section, but we have 2 Chinese restaurants. We have a Greek restaurant. And that is about the sum of my hometown's multi cultural aspect. The town clearly has a fondness for Catholics, as the only schools in town not older than me are all nice new Catholic places. And the fact the Catholics places almost out number the non Catholic schools says something about the town.
I suppose if there is any source of bias in town I would be needing to cope with, it likely would come from there if at all.

I am fortunate though, that this is still Canada, regardless of who has come from where. Canadian law and the Canadian legal code still runs things. It is actually legal here, for a woman to take off her top and walk down the mainstream utterly naked from the waist up if she feels like it. None of the ladies ever do though Some things are just not worth it enough to some people on occasion I can enjoy the fact that I CAN be all that I want to be here, and my life is not in any danger for it. Unless my family comes from some oppressive region and they selectively ignore some portions of Canadian law in the process.

Let me tell you, if I ever catch a man hurting a woman in my presence, they are going to get a fine taste of my sledge hammer handle built cane. Not in my country. I was VERY happy to hear Fred Phelps and his hate brigade are considered terrorists in Canada and on Canadian soil.
We don't allow eeeeverything into Canada

*This message brought to you by Molson Canadian.  Disclaimer: The above message is highly biased towards life in Ontario and should not be considered the opinion of all Canadians.  Please drink responsibly.

Not sure how to respond to that

Actually I am more of a hot chocolate fan. I get most of my funding from Tim Horton's

Quote from: Lesley_Roberta on August 14, 2013, 08:34:46 AM
Not sure how to respond to that

Like zis!

There's no Canada like French Canada,
It's the best Canada in the land.
The other Canada is hardly Canada.
If you lived here for a day, you'd understand.

Ah well being from la belle province myself I can agree with that

Quote from: Lesley_Roberta on August 14, 2013, 07:09:35 AM
.........

i have friends from all over the world. totally literally. i don't have any stories from friends who travelled to those countries, but people who were born and raised there. the way you portray your muslim neighbors as the weirdos of the lot doesn't fit with the reality i know. most of the muslims i know are really good people. there are a few bad ones, some bad enough to think their only purpose in life is to conquer the world to the regime of a terrifyingly strict god. but those are only a few. sadly, many are powerful enough to make a negative difference in millions of people's lives.

i'm sorry that i can't at all agree with or even want to understand your point in that post, but i've grown up and am still living on the losing end of racism. i won't stand any generalizations of any peoples based on anecdotes from white people or others who are not an actual part of the culture they visited.

or should i just say that the post hurt me just as much as it would hurt if someone told me that "oh, but you're actually one of those rare nice gays/transsexuals".

Quote from: Alice In Genderland on August 15, 2013, 04:10:27 PM
Am I the only one who sees the irony of this sentence?

no, you aren't. i know the irony in being biased against white people and straight people and cissexual people etc. i'm even white myself, just not white enough despite even blue eyes. my saami ethnicity is too alien to other norwegians for some reason. but i have too much against privileged people making generalized statements about the less privileged. and i did mean "others who are not an actual part of the culture they visited" more than the part about white people. i have heard the oddest generalizations about europeans and americans from people in other parts of the world as well.

just to clarify

Quote from: Lesley_Roberta on August 14, 2013, 07:09:35 AM
Canada gladly opens it's borders to all and to any, but sadly that all and that any, they never leave any of the horrible stuff from home behind.
My mother lived next to a Muslim family in Ottawa. They are great people this family. They are also weird in that they are nice people. They stand out for their accepting nature that made my mother so glad to have them as neighbours. She was treated like a nice old granny by the two boys that live there. My mom regretted moving as a result. They are not the usual fare you get unfortunately.

this is what upset me. it still upsets me.
you can have your own opinions, but relay them as your own. they're base on other people's stories, but still your own. take responsibility for them, just as i will stand for what i say as my own opinion, or my own fault for hurting someone with my words.

i am that rare nice person of my people. not a muslim, but it definitely hurts me when i hear things like that said about any group of people. it makes me sad that you'd word it that way.
your mother sure is a good woman, but that doesn't make your neighbors weird in being good people.

did you know that my people have been asked by our more norwegian neighbors to be good tourist attractions and stop complaining about not having the same human rights as them? you probably didn't, and if you live d here you might not even understand what's wrong about it. would you treat your first nations the same way? i don't know. there's no way i could know.

but the marked out sentence hurt me immensely, and your unwillingness to try and understand why hurts me just as much.

Quote from: Taka on August 15, 2013, 03:56:30 PMi'm sorry that i can't at all agree with or even want to understand your point in that post, but i've grown up and am still living on the losing end of racism. i won't stand any generalizations of any peoples based on anecdotes from white people or others who are not an actual part of the culture they visited.

Skin-wise, I'm white. Ehtnically, I'm Latin@. Let's just say that when someone finds out that I'm not a white Euro-American, it can and has gotten ugly and depressing. Almost as if it's a dirty secret that they're not afraid to blackmail me for.

Anyways, I'm right with you there. When push comes to shove, the white people who embody the white colonialist attitude always come out on top. Always.

Interesting topic, since I was just looking at the negative effects of Transitioning.

I am sort with Horizon, I was teased allot when I was younger since I was short scrawny and had huge glasses. I never really dreamed to be a big boss, I never really cared about being super athletic. I cry to this very day when I am sad.  So I can't say I had many male advantages, at least nothing I can see that woman cannot do just as well if not better.

Yet then again with each "For every action has an Equal and opposite Reaction" Sir Isaac Newton

But I think what I am trying to figure out is - would I end up on a better path then I am now that will ultimately lead me to leading a happier life, but since no one can see the future or tell what the choices you make lead you. We have to sort of take a leap of faith, no matter what path we choose.

Since we have never ventured down that path we have to hope it leads some where nice.

aaand I am rambling! 

Quote from: Lo on August 16, 2013, 11:45:28 AM
Skin-wise, I'm white. Ehtnically, I'm Latin@. Let's just say that when someone finds out that I'm not a white Euro-American, it can and has gotten ugly and depressing. Almost as if it's a dirty secret that they're not afraid to blackmail me for.

Anyways, I'm right with you there. When push comes to shove, the white people who embody the white colonialist attitude always come out on top. Always.

finally someone who understands me...
if you haven't read it yet, you might want to try the korean webtoon "orange marmalade", it exists in english as well. that's about exactly the same kind of problem, but the author made it much easier for even white people to understand by not using ethnicities that they're already used to being prejudiced against in one way or the other. it can be a painful read though, for people who recognize all the same kinds of situations.

come out or not come out? it can be dangerous, there's so much to lose and no knowing what you could possibly gain. and choosing to go stealth probably also is problematic in ways that we don't hear much about since stealth people often stay away from the more outed ones. i wonder what it's like to never tell, how afraid they are or aren't of someone finding out. and what if you happen to learn that your boy-/girlfriend is transphobic... won't be an issue for me, i'd rather be just as queer as i am, but there are some stories i really wish we'd hear more about.

Quote from: Horizon on August 13, 2013, 10:42:10 PMI've always been very short and fairly scrawny, so I've never had "male privilege" anyway.  In fact, I get more male ridicule than privilege.  I can't lose something I've never had, but I can gain so much more.

Excellent point. When people generalize about "male privilege", I cringe - male privilege belongs to manly men, not the guys who are weak, skinny, feminine, short, not into sports etc.  If anything, I've been routinely excluded from male privilege.  I too have nothing to lose, and I'd gladly toss away any male privilege I ever had in exchange for becoming female.

Now, I understand that such a statement coming from someone who grew up male comes with its own set of qualifiers, primarily that I can't see how much privilege I've received looking from the inside of male privilege outwards (and I'm sure that women will look at me and see someone who has benefitted greatly from male privilege, no matter how blind I am to it.)  But on the flip side, a female pointing to me and claiming that I've benefitted from male privilege is someone I can point to and claim benefitted from the female privilege I see all around, and to which they are equally blind.

Our perceptions of a gender other than our own are always skewed. We see the good and bad in other genders, yet can't see how good (or bad) we have it ourselves.

I see gender privilege as being most beneficial to those who exhibit the predominant physical/cultural attributes of their sex (e.g. manly men rather than wussy men receive most of the benefits of male privilege, and pretty girls rather than butch girls receive most of the benefits of female privilege).  And as we're a community of TG individuals, I think that many of us are saying, "Gender privilege?  What gender privilege?", because we often live in no-man's land between the two.  Furthermore, I see many of us not just missing the gender privilege of their birth sex, but also that of their actual gender, because society as a whole still doesn't want to put us firmly in one category or the other.

What if you saw a 250 lb woman beating a 150 lb man?   Would you come to the aid of the man in this circumstance?

Would you really beat a man with an axe handle, but not do the same with an aggressive woman?

That is sexist in the extreme.

Quote from: Lesley_Roberta on August 14, 2013, 07:09:35 AM
Let me tell you, if I ever catch a man hurting a woman in my presence, they are going to get a fine taste of my sledge hammer handle built cane.

I mean; no matter how much you want to shatter gender roles they will pretty much will always exist. I get a lot of crap for playing video games with my other girlfriends and we get a lot of sexist crap and things like "Isn't play games not feminine" But at the end of the day; it's all part of being woman and you have to accept the good and bad. I've told my friend time and time again; I don't care about the negatives of being born with a V; but I just wish I was born with one.

Quote from: Allison on August 18, 2013, 07:27:02 PM
I mean; no matter how much you want to shatter gender roles they will pretty much will always exist. I get a lot of crap for playing video games with my other girlfriends and we get a lot of sexist crap and things like "Isn't play games not feminine" But at the end of the day; it's all part of being woman and you have to accept the good and bad. I've told my friend time and time again; I don't care about the negatives of being born with a V; but I just wish I was born with one.

I have asked a lot of cis females, some that work in game retail locations, 'if you had to design a wargame to appeal to a woman, how would you do it?'.

So far the only reply I have ever been given is 'hmm you know, that is a good question' and then they have nothing to offer.

Yes girls like video games.

But girls like video games for different reasons, even if it is the same video games the boys are playing.

I like playing pencil and paper role games. But when I play them, I play them in a way that actually illustrates my differences from the guys. I don't hunt for the biggest weapon, and I am not interested in the best armour, I am mostly interested in developing my skills useful for analytical interaction with the game. I seek to play the role, not improve the roll. I often intentionally will play flawed characters simply because their character traits are more fun to act out. Most boys though just want to kill gain XP level up, kill gain XP level up repeat repeat repeat. But that gets boring fast.

I play wargames that require problem solving, analysis and planning. I avoid games that are reflex action speed and resource gain. Most designs that are real time, tend to offer me nothing.

Quote from: Alice In Genderland on August 17, 2013, 01:28:58 PM
"even for white people." here we go again with the white-bashing.  You know we're not all the same, right?

If a woman who has been raped has a deep-seated distrust of men because of it, this is acceptable. But if a culture and a people who have been raped and have a deep-seated distrust of the culture that perpetrated the crimes against them, it's not acceptable. I don't really care what the detractors say, I know how I feel, I know how I've been treated, how my family has been treated. We just want to get by.

Quote from: Joey. on August 18, 2013, 09:53:27 PM
That's such bull->-bleeped-<- and a real ->-bleeped-<-ty thing to say. That post is pure bull->-bleeped-<-. The fact you'd laugh at a man getting abused is a joke in itself and a heartless thing to say.

Man can most definitely be abused; and treated like crap. Fact of the matter is, men can be raped... and it is still messed up.