Another topic made me think about this.

I'm pretty aware of how I move.
It's dependent on the situation for the most part.
But I don't think I can pull off totally masculine or feminine moves very well.
But I am conscious of putting a spin on them at times.
Especially if I want to attract someone's attention. 

I probably just watch people too much, but it's interesting to read people by their movements.
Not so much gender as attitude and then maybe gender.
I recognize people I know from a pretty good distance, like if they are walking.
Farther away than it takes to recognize them by their face or such.

Is there such a thing as non-binary body movements?
Ones that are particular to Non-Binaries?
Do you consciously have movements you favor?
Ativan

What a great question!
I am actually pretty conscious of how I move. When I was younger I heard a pretty constant litany of "you don't walk like a girl". It drove me nuts. I walk like me and I didn't understand, until I came out of my dark little closet, what it meant. The way that I walk seems to be something totally other. I don't exactly swagger but my stride is long for an FAAB.
Now that you have got me thinking about it I want more data! It will be interesting to read other replies.

This is a good question, I've never really thought about non-binary movements.
I do however pay a lot of attention to how I move and hold myself and I also watch how people move. I guess I try to avoid masculine movements while not exactly copying feminine movements. I do a lot of taiji and that has had a lot of influence on how I move and how I try to move, so I mostly try to move from my center of gravity by articulating my hips so I guess in a sense that's more feminine. hmmm thinky thinky

For me it's when I sit on a bench with my legs open, rather than my knees together and hands in my lap (carryover from MTF days).

"Masculine" body language is defined by how much space you take up, and "feminine" is how much you can compact yourself like a piece of origami.

I generally sit, walk, gesticulate however. I'm just as likely to cross my legs (and ankles) as I am to sit with them wide open. I've noticed that I do oftentimes have a spring in my step that's pretty exclusive to young men enjoying the high of camaraderie. Most of what I do is whatever though. I've never even thought to "emulate" the bodily mannerisms of any gender, unless it was for dramatics. I just do my thing.

Quote from: jesseofthenorth on August 17, 2013, 05:05:41 PM
What a great question!
I am actually pretty conscious of how I move. When I was younger I heard a pretty constant litany of "you don't walk like a girl". It drove me nuts. I walk like me and I didn't understand, until I came out of my dark little closet, what it meant. The way that I walk seems to be something totally other. I don't exactly swagger but my stride is long for an FAAB.
Now that you have got me thinking about it I want more data! It will be interesting to read other replies.

Could have written every word of this about myself. I can't believe how much harassment I got about how I walked. Narrow hips and wide shoulders, maybe? Center of gravity is higher. It's still one reason I don't pass as cis even when I am trying.

i also never managed to walk right. no matter how much i studied the feminine way of walking, i could never copy, ad i still don't get how those women can move like that so naturally. but i can't say i'm better at walking in a masculine way, so i suppose my way is rather androgyne.

recognizing something or someone's movement before any of their other features seems like a natural thing. it can be important to be able to tell the difference between friend and foe at a distance. i'm good at hearing the difference between people as well, i always know where everybody is in a house, and what they're doing. only exception to the rule is my zombie brother, the rather ghostly one. he doesn't make any sound when moving, doesn't have much of a presence. could be a good assassin.

I tend to walk more like a guy, but when I am sitting/laying/standing I tend to carry myself a lot more like a girl. I've always crossed my legs like a girl, and it never really occurred to me that it was really feminine until my father pointed it out one day. Since then I've always tried to be more like a guy in that sense, but I always end up going back to being effeminate in this sense. It's just more comfortable to me.

My hand movements and gestures tend to be pretty feminine as well, but not quite all the way... It's a little difficult to describe because I always seemed to be switching back and forth.

It seems to me that a non-binary movement would be anything that is not obviously male or female.

Quote from: Jamie D on August 19, 2013, 05:07:10 PM
It seems to me that a non-binary movement would be anything that is not obviously male or female.

yeah, but let's be serious here for a moment. People shouldn't be forcing themselves to use movements if they don't come natural. Just use what comes natural to you. THAT will be your personal expression.

Quote from: ZootAllures! on August 19, 2013, 05:08:59 PM
People shouldn't be forcing themselves to use movements if they don't come natural. Just use what comes natural to you. THAT will be your personal expression.

I have thought about this some more, and of course read everyones posts.
Just in watching a few people lately, it seems that there is such a wide variation in the way people move for what they are doing.
In my mind, I had been making the mistake of thinking about stereotypical movements.
This just doesn't hold true for most people.
The more I think about it and observe, the greater the range there seems to be, regardless of the person.
Different situations call for specific movements, and most seem dependent on that situation.
What would look like a gendered movement really seems to only apply to those gendered moments that call for them.

I think I'm suddenly a little more aware that I already knew this to be true, just didn't give it enough thought.
Not paying all that much attention, mainly because the movements are natural to the setting.
I started to look at the moves of actors in shows and movies, and now some of them look way to overdone.
Could this be a part of the stereotypical ideas of gendered movements?
They seem so suspect in the way they are done. The intent to portray a certain image.
Do we do this ourselves? Purposely add intent to our moves to show gender? Or neutrality of sorts?
I kind of think so. I'll have to pay more attention to why I move the way I do in situations.
I know it does matter who might be watching. And it depends on the situation to some extent.
I'm aware that certain movements will get certain results from those watching, most of the time.
Make people move out of my way, draw people in closer, send signals to make people comfortable or not.
These are pretty standard stuff. Posturing for a desired result.

But in the end, I really don't have a clue as to what a Non-Binary movement should or could look like.
I suspect people I don't know, of being possibly Non-Binary, but I really don't know. I'm not one to just ask.
A flirtatious look perhaps, a nod of recognition, just in case...

What I was thinking in asking, are there movements that anyone makes that are a blend of some sort that seems to define you?
Is neutral obvious? It's not to me, I suppose. It blends in to well.
Fluid movements? That works for very strong masculine and feminine movements.
The duration of fluidity in movements, as in exaggerating them somewhat?

I'm equally comfortable with both masculine and feminine stereotypical movements, but don't use them that often.
At least I don't think I do. And here again, it depends on the situation as to whether one is, one or the other.
Going off the trails while moving through wooded areas is most definitely very fluid and I'm acutely aware that it feels very feminine.
Negotiating through a crowd is fluid yet very masculine in nature for me.

I'm not drawing any conclusions, I need to think about this some more.
Ativan

Quote from: Ativan Prescribed on August 19, 2013, 07:24:34 PM
Do we do this ourselves? Purposely add intent to our moves to show gender? Or neutrality of sorts?

i think it's more like portraying a role. classic theater had a tendency to portray archetypes through specific masks, clothing, and movements. types that we can recognize as a little bit like this or that person. an actor's movements should still be influenced somewhat by the role they are playing, unless they're a good enough actor to be able to portray a person rather than that person's role in the story.

us people, when we interact with each other, often take on roles that make it easier to establish what kind of relationship we expect or hope to have with the other person. some times in order (not) to intimidate, other times in order to appear friendly, professional, etc. many cultures signal the person's role not only through movements, but also the grammar they use. you don't speak to a superior the same way you do to an inferior, nor to a female friend the same way as to a male one. there are different ways to speak and move when talking to children, adolescents, adults, the elderly, and men and women generally have different speech patterns and gestures. most of these roles are gendered roles, and are played more unconsciously than consciously. experts on communication (or manipulation) will use all their knowledge of roles and their relations consciously, and can adapt to new people and situations easily.

but by playing these roles, it's easy to lose one's sense of self, unless one's self is rather congruent with some of the roles. my sister fits in the roles of mother and housewife, i don't. she doesn't have to act the role consciously the same way as i some times have to just to meet other people's expectations.

i don't get why people give such significance to these roles that anyone who can't do it right is placed outside any social circles, regarded as freaks, or constantly corrected. non-binary body movements can easily become just as studied and conformity directed as masculine and feminine movements have become in our society. to some people they come naturally, but not to all, and i think we should rather do what is natural than try to copy the way other people move.

Quote from: Ativan Prescribed on August 19, 2013, 07:24:34 PM
Just in watching a few people lately, it seems that there is such a wide variation in the way people move for what they are doing.
In my mind, I had been making the mistake of thinking about stereotypical movements.
This just doesn't hold true for most people.

Yep, think you're right. The majority of cis folk are inbetween the extremes. Though I do think some movement is based on body type alone - like Taka, I could never move like most women seem to move and I think part of it was body type. Women with hips naturally move differently (which is why I'm guessing a lot of trans women will never master this completely). And shorter people do tend to carry themselves differently than taller people as if they require less effort to keep upright. 

Even stuff as simple as how someone sits can be based on body type. And of course can be influenced by psychological stuff. People with body issues can sometimes be pointed out by their movements - and women tend to have more issues in this area than men. I suspect overall personality has a large effect on movements as well. For most people, their movements tend to 'fit' them and it's usually only when they don't fit the person that they stand out. You might notice more stereotypically masculine moves on one guy but not another because it fits the latter's personality/body/being/etc. So, in this way I wonder if non-binary do tend to have movements in the middle naturally (or if they're at either extreme, could be a lifetime of trying to fit either role).
Just a theory anyway.

Good question, Ativan!

Body type definitely impacts the way you move and walk and things. I've got femoral anteversion, which means that my femur bones stick out of my hip sockets at an abnormal angle, which makes me walk very... thinly? Instead of my leg moving straight forward and back, like this ||, I walk more like this / \. My knees bump into each other a lot. My pelvis is naturally tilted backward to make room for the awkward gait, making me look like I'm sticking my butt out like girls are """""supposed""""" to do, and it gives me thigh gap. Sitting in a straight seat, like a car or subway seat, is slightly uncomfortable on its own, so I tend to cross my legs a lot. I inherited the bone structure from my dad's side, so he and his brother do this also; it has nothing to do with the width of the hips. They don't cross their legs in the same way I do, but the still do it more than it seems the average guy does.

Yay, "gendered" body movements that actually have nothing to do with gender.

Taka, I think we do play roles more than we realize. Confirmation of what I have suspected.
I'm acutely aware of doing just those things, but at the same time, I don't know to what extent I do that subconsciously.
Gets me closer to understanding this.
Fitter Admin, I hadn't given as much importance to body type as I should in my thinking.
I need to observe this with that in mind as I try to decipher peoples movements.
Lo, same thing, but with a twist.

I approached this whole thing from a far more simplistic view than I'm realizing I should have.
It's really more complicated than I thought, but not difficult to understand.
The insights are great. Gives me and I hope others a better understanding of another aspect of being Non-Binary.
I'm left with much to think about, and a better understanding.
It seems to be such a simple thing on the surface, yet it isn't.
I think we can all benefit from some points of view from others as well.
Other than having an intentional androgynous expression, we are hard to identify.
I hear that kind of sentiment in many of the the comments made amongst other topics and from people who are new to this area.
Takas point about how we speak and the grammar we use is another thing that just may help us in our search for others like us.
To be able to identify ourselves would be huge in adding to whatever self assurance we have, or don't have and would like.

The inhabitants and the people who frequent the forest are amazing in a special way that is hard to pin down.
The search for the greater truths about us continues on, with more insight of the paths I need to walk on.
Ativan

another thing that i forgot to think about, is how people tend to assimilate. that's probably not the right word for it, but i can't remember the right word (there's an expression in linguistics). people often adapt the way they speak to the other person's way of speaking, and almost too many end up speaking the majority's dialect when they move to the city from a rural area. i switch dialects unconsciously, always depending on who i'm speaking to. this also includes body language, that's also a part of human language.

i once heard a story from a scanlator about how her japanese was ruined by translating too many mangas about young and often somewhat delinquent men (yaoi). it would sound hilarious if she spoke like that, only beaten by how funny it sounds when men have learned japanese from their girlfriends (all those hyper feminine endings from a rather manly man...)

if someone watches only gangster movies, they're likely to start talking more like a gangster. most young people would speak the way their friends or idols speak. we all imitate others, often without realizing. speech patterns are easier to notice, but this also includes body language. when someone walks in a funny way due to some physical variation, it can be noticed the same way as odd pronunciation. if the way they move looks like one that is common for a particular group of people, like a gender, that doesn't have too many equivalents in spoken language, but a mispronunciation can actually spread if the person is regarded highly enough by their peers.

they say the french r came about when a king couldn't pronounce his r's properly, might be a myth, but it definitely is spreading still here in norway. easier to pronounce is one of the reasons, but that wouldn't be enough if the right people thought it was ugly. but they don't, instead some really popular people speak dialects with those r's. i'm wondering if all of norway will end up speaking like that one day...

just adding lots of slightly incoherent thoughts. but it's interesting to think about why we do what we do the way we do.

That moment when, you're writing a post and you take a moment to giggle to yourself, so you're sitting in your chair, arms locked and some weight on the heels of your hands upon your chair in front of your crotch - but your boob-forms are digging into the backs of your arms.

And then, not ninety seconds later you pause again, your legs crossed just below the knees, one arm across your lap and the other holding your chin up.

Strange?  I dunno.  Very natural, though.

@Taka: You're thinking of code-switching, a real fascinating concept.

Add speech patterns to the mix and it becomes clearer I suppose.
Speech is a whole nother topic, I think. Maybe we can do that here or on another topic.
Combining the two another topic or just discuss it here.
I think there is a subconscious factor in there somewhere...

musicofthenight brings up another facet.
Not only our movements, but also the positions we use when we stop those movements.
Do we pose differently?
Is neutral just to broad to be confined by any sort of definition?

The more I look around at everyday people, the more I realize how much I take for granted that certain people or genders are moving.
We don't have a stereotypical set of movements because we are not stereotypical.
And people that I am assuming are cis, don't vary as much as I had envisioned in thinking about this.
Not as much stereotypical moves there either.
Actually most are pretty neutral in movement, but have just enough of something to define them as male or female.
Yet there is a recognition as such that we don't seem to have.
I find it interesting, and still perplexed as to the subtleties of how that is.
Clues vs cues. another angle to think about.
Driving myself ever crazier in a fun interesting kind of insanity over this. 
Ativan

studying people is interesting, but usually leaves you with more questions than answers...

Quote from: Lo on August 24, 2013, 07:27:17 PM
@Taka: You're thinking of code-switching, a real fascinating concept.

no, it's actually not code-switching i'm thinking of. code-switching is more like the way i switch from a female to male way of speaking. what i'm talking about is more like how i suddenly pronounce some words or phonemes the way the other person does. and it's called something else. i do code-switch a lot between norwegian and saami, as do many of my friends in this community where i live. but that is a little different than when i adapt the way i speak or move to get a little closer to how the other speaker speaks or moves. i just can't remember what this concept is called. code-switching is fun though, a very bigender or fluid thing to do.