There are many of us out there that want to live our lives between the male and female gender markers. There is a surgery to address for mtf and ftm, but NONE for those that want a penis and a vagina. Is it possible? Of course. Its a matter of a skin graft, cutting muscle between the legs, install graft. What is needed is a doc to do it. Bowers, Mcginn, Suporn..... why wont they offer this kind of surgery? How are those of us who badly want this kind of surgery going to convince surgeons to do this kind of surgery? After all, people get all kinds of cosmetic surgeries all the time. And this kind of surgery, unlike standard srs, would seem to be mostly reversible. so Why not? And how to talk to surgeons without them dismissing or attacking you?

That's very interesting an yes I do think they dont really address those who are in between.

However on a side note I have been thinking... this may be a bit weird but thats me lol... everyday a day a life is saved by organ transplants, and there are stories of people getting partial limbs and the like. It is a common thing to be an organ donor however why dont surgeons have a system where two individuals undergoing SRS, each going the opposite direction (MTF/FTM). In which if both parties are in agreement, receive the others sexual organs? I mean would it be that hard? It may be the answer to those of us (me included) out there that would give anything to be a mother someday. To have children is just a fantasy but we cherish it. Of course they would have to have a compatible tissue type (which is not uncommon as our tissues dont vary too wildly). But why couldn't this be an avenue to explore in the future?

Well anyway that's my thoughts hope its not too out there, but I think it would be amazing

Just a FYI this is very common in the FTM side of things. Just do a search for the pregnant man.

Izz

Thomas Beatie doesn't have sex organs of both sexes. That is not the same thing.

Quote from: LordKAT on August 20, 2013, 06:42:47 AM
Thomas Beatie doesn't have sex organs of both sexes. That is not the same thing.

Just repling as the OP posted. About surgery and not working sex organs of both sexes. Just repling to what is asked that can be done by surgery and only at this moment in time is the FTM has the option to have both a penis and a vagina. It can not happen with a Mtf being there is no room to make a vigina because the penis uses the space where the vagina is made in srs surgery.

Also the reference to thomas was just a way to make a quick search. There are many, many ftm that have both.


Izzy

Surgeries aim to give a normal appearance of the chosen sex. Having both is essentially creating a hermaphrodite, which represent a condition, not a gender identity. Not that I know of, at least. Surgeries to create anomalies, whether you like it or not, are extremely controversial.

Not to mention that I figure that a surgery to create both organs is likely to end up with only one that works.

And I don't want to be insulting, and it's very possible that I've missed something, but I've never heard of cases of gender identity that required both. As far as I understand neither androgynes nor third gender  need both organs... Only cases I can think of were undecided people who needed therapy to clarify their thoughts but denied it and... well, odd fetishes.

So maybe I'm mistaken, and maybe indeed it's a valid and permanent gender identity manifestation to feel like you need both sexual organs. But even then, for now you'll need to wait or choose one, I say. Just how hard and long was it to have people understand and start treating something as simple as being in a body of the wrong gender? Imagine something as self-contradicting-sounding as wanting the sexual outwash l organs of both genders, and a result as unnatural as that. How would the medical community prove and accept that? Do hermaphrodites have a deep felt experience that they belong to both genders? Is wanting to be both genders a natural state? Those are only a few of the debatable questions that would need to be seen. Transsexualism is accepted as it is and not as a mental health disorder because the brain is in a recognized natural/normal state, but one that doesn't fit
with the rest of the body.

Anyhow, doctors need to understand the problem before they will accept doing that kind of treatment for it. And right now, I don't think they do.

mind is quiet now, summed up the surgical situation nicely.  If there were some kind of exchange of parts rejection would be a problem for both.  The rejection drugs are expensive and need to carefully monitored and even then completion does happen often. It maybe nice to dream about but not really practical.

Quote from: A on August 20, 2013, 10:52:41 AM
Surgeries aim to give a normal appearance of the chosen sex. Having both is essentially creating a hermaphrodite, which represent a condition, not a gender identity. Not that I know of, at least. Surgeries to create anomalies, whether you like it or not, are extremely controversial.

Not to mention that I figure that a surgery to create both organs is likely to end up with only one that works.

And I don't want to be insulting, and it's very possible that I've missed something, but I've never heard of cases of gender identity that required both. As far as I understand neither androgynes nor third gender  need both organs... Only cases I can think of were undecided people who needed therapy to clarify their thoughts but denied it and... well, odd fetishes.

So maybe I'm mistaken, and maybe indeed it's a valid and permanent gender identity manifestation to feel like you need both sexual organs. But even then, for now you'll need to wait or choose one, I say. Just how hard and long was it to have people understand and start treating something as simple as being in a body of the wrong gender? Imagine something as self-contradicting-sounding as wanting the sexual outwash l organs of both genders, and a result as unnatural as that. How would the medical community prove and accept that? Do hermaphrodites have a deep felt experience that they belong to both genders? Is wanting to be both genders a natural state? Those are only a few of the debatable questions that would need to be seen. Transsexualism is accepted as it is and not as a mental health disorder because the brain is in a recognized natural/normal state, but one that doesn't fit
with the rest of the body.

Anyhow, doctors need to understand the problem before they will accept doing that kind of treatment for it. And right now, I don't think they do.

I did not want to get into the morality right or wrong of things. I just wanted to throw it out as only per the question asked by the OP, that the FTM group have more options then the MTF group if thats what someone wants or needs. But as swapped implants maybe some year but not today.

Izzy

For the MTF transsexual, there is a sort of middle ground which both Bowers and McGinn will do.

Besides the traditional SRS, there is a choice of size of the neo-clitoris.   The erectile tissue is removed, so that won't work, but the glans is typically trimmed to 1/4 of it's original size. 

The trade off here is between appearance and sensitivity of the neo-clitoris. 

If  you want a much larger than normal clit, you can have it. 

As mentioned earlier the root of the penis extends quite a way underneath the perineum.  In order to make a vaginal opening you would need to remove this which would render the penis inoperative.

Randi

Quote from: adison on August 20, 2013, 05:34:51 AM
There is a surgery to address for mtf and ftm, but NONE for those that want a penis and a vagina. Is it possible? Of course.

A few thoughts on this.

Is it possible right now with current medical technologies? Probably not so much. Might it be in the future? Probably. I'm incredibly optimistic about future medical advances. I suspect they'll be growing replacement body parts of all types before terribly long, and that includes things like a penis and testicles or all the female parts. As Randi mentioned, the space where a vagina might be is taken up by the root of the penis for guys so that's a problem they would have to solve before both could be there.

As for transplants, that's a lot more complicated than you seem to believe. Imagine people who end up on waiting lists for kidneys and such. They tend to try to find donors who are related because they're genetically similar. Even then, there are degrees of similarity. Some organs can be close enough perhaps but not ideal whereas even a closely-matched one will require drugs to combat rejection for the rest of the recipient's life. Their immune system will attack it as a foreign body. How aggressively that happens depends on how far removed from their genes the organ is. The only perfect donor which wouldn't cause that problem at all would have to be from an identical twin because their genetics match exactly. Obviously that's no use for the whole genital swapping thing because identical twins are always the same gender.

As a libertarian, I'm all for people being able to do WHATEVER they want with their own bodies. That said, I don't think this is anything related to gender identity per se. I know from posts here that many trans folk will tell you their sexual organs aren't that key to their identity. It matters more or less depending on the specific person, of course. For instance, I know there are trans folk who have no particular desire to change that part of themselves and yet they are just as much the gender that they identify with. It seems to have more to do with the kinds of sexual activities which one would like to engage in, and that's totally fine. Unfortunately, surgeons are likely to be very reluctant to do something unusual, particularly without a pressing need like to address the dysmorphia associated with being trans.

@Izzy

I think there's a misconception here. I'm not seeing where you're getting this. Thomas Beattie does not have both a penis and a vagina. If you're talking about the fact that the clitoris grows on testosterone, that is not the same thing. To put this in perspective - there are cis women with naturally large clits too.

I haven't heard of a case where a trans man had phalloplasty while keeping his vagina, though I could be wrong. I suppose you could be right that it would be easier for a surgeon to construct a penis while keeping the vagina intact instead of the other way around. But I wouldn't say it's a readily available option if it is one at all.

How would that work?  Honestly, I really don't understand what that would look like or how it would function.  By the way, I don't mean that in a judgemental way.  I'm all for people doing what they want.  I'm just confused about what you want or what the end result would be.

Quote from: Alice In Genderland on August 21, 2013, 02:22:12 AM
There are some rather odd pornographic pictures I have seen that obviously were photoshopped. If you really want to see what it could possibly look like if the surgery were possible the internet has everything.  I found them to be oddly arousing...I'm weird though.

It's okay you're not weird.   

Having said that, I think I'd prefer to avoid those sites.  Not sure I want to see what else might pop up. 

Quote from: learningtolive on August 21, 2013, 02:25:11 AM
It's okay you're not weird.   

I take offense to that!!   I like being weird, and yes I know you were just trying to make me not feel bad about myself.

If FTM, get phalloplasty and tell them not to remove your vagina.

If MTF, get vaginoplasty, then say you want to go back. See FTM step.

Quote from: Fitter Admin on August 20, 2013, 12:30:06 PM
@Izzy

I think there's a misconception here. I'm not seeing where you're getting this. Thomas Beattie does not have both a penis and a vagina. If you're talking about the fact that the clitoris grows on testosterone, that is not the same thing. To put this in perspective - there are cis women with naturally large clits too.

I haven't heard of a case where a trans man had phalloplasty while keeping his vagina, though I could be wrong. I suppose you could be right that it would be easier for a surgeon to construct a penis while keeping the vagina intact instead of the other way around. But I wouldn't say it's a readily available option if it is one at all.

Not sure why somone is still trying to beat me up on this.
It was a reference only in the fact of what the OP asked and a easy search.
I am married to a FTM and i know all about what can be done and at what stages. Its all the things my husband is trying to decide what is best. But if i said like Mark Blah, John Blah, Sam Blah or Chris blah. how would anyone search for them??? These are all personal ftm i know who have had either a Metoidioplasty or Phalloplasty and still have there reproductive system. So i am done trying to answer the OP question, and as far is i knew Thomas had a Metoidioplasty.

Yes most of the Phalloplasty have everything removed but not everyone can afford and have left things working till they can get $$$

This was the OP question i so tried to answer in the fact that things for the FTM family are already being done.....Nothing more or nothing less..

QuoteThere are many of us out there that want to live our lives between the male and female gender markers. There is a surgery to address for mtf and ftm, but NONE for those that want a penis and a vagina. Is it possible? Of course. Its a matter of a skin graft, cutting muscle between the legs, install graft. What is needed is a doc to do it. Bowers, Mcginn, Suporn..... why wont they offer this kind of surgery? How are those of us who badly want this kind of surgery going to convince surgeons to do this kind of surgery? After all, people get all kinds of cosmetic surgeries all the time. And this kind of surgery, unlike standard srs, would seem to be mostly reversible. so Why not? And how to talk to surgeons without them dismissing or attacking you?

Quote from: mind is quiet now on August 21, 2013, 11:15:44 AM
Not sure why somone is still trying to beat me up on this.

Not trying to beat you up on anything hon. Sorry if it came across that way. Was just trying to clear up what seemed like misconceptions.

I think we had a discussion about this some time back and the consensus of opinion was that the penile shaft which runs fore and aft to the prostate precludes any possibility of creating a vagina and maintaining a functional penis. I have seen some hermaphrodites with both organs on one of the Internet tubes, I think it was a bit disconcerting albeit kinky to say the least.

Is it possible?  Not in the usual way it is portrayed on the internet.  In those that are not photo-shopped, they have done one of two things: they have removed part of the penis shaft that is inside, reconnected the plumbing and the blood supply and then shoved a vagina in there using intestinal tissue and skin graft.  They evidently can still get an erection but it is like a tree without roots and is quite bendable at the base.  Then, the vagina has no nerve endings so there is minimal sensation. The other option is to turn an oversize clitoris into a penis.  Yea, sensations everywhere but not the same as having both and it is difficult if not impossible to orgasm from penetration.  So, this isn't practical if you want to actually enjoy sex as a male and as a female in the traditional lock and key kind of way.

However, there are a few, a very few, full hermaphrodites (certain chimeras, 46XX/46XY) who have most if not all of both sets of organs. (The penile shaft and prostate are moved forward making room for the vagina. Again, there is a problem.  One woudl be running T which suppresses E to the point of no menstrual cycle and ultimately can cause serious problems with the female system.  The other is running E, which suppresses the T.  One wins, one looses.

Running both?  Maybe, for a while, but it would be like switching from high doses of T for two weeks, then to high doses of E for two weeks, then to high doses of T for two weeks, then to high doses of E...it would be a two week cycle.  That person would have serious cyclic mental issues – every two weeks for 24-36 hours. Then, the E, because of how high it gets at ovulation, over time, would actually start a deterioration process in the prostate and sexual function would go right out the window.  Ultimately, the testicles would fall asleep and the male system would become worse than useless.