Lol, no. To a smoker, a good electronic cigarette is not unhealthy in any way other than the nicotine it gives, which alone is actually not much worse than caffeine, I believe. Not to mention that usually it'll give less nicotine than a cigarette.

Of course, if you've never smoked and try an electronic cigarette, then it can get you addicted to both nicotine and the action of lifting a cigarette to your mouth, which can push you into smoking eventually, but that's besides the point.

I have to stop reading threads like these, they irritate me so much.... oh great, now I want a cigarette too..... siiiiiigh

Ok so moving along, here's the problem with these threads. They're full of goody goody health nuts who won't let science, evidence, or even common sense get in the way of their black and white world view.

To them, smoking is bad.... now that's nothing sensational, as a smoker I think I speak for all of us when I say we ALL know it's bad for you, really really bad.

Problem is unlike most smokers, unlike a great many non-smokers too, the health police won't let the consensus on that aspect of smoking be good enough. If they haven't gotten everyone convinced that tobacco is the devil plant and that every puff releases a little bit of the smoldering pit of hell then they feel they haven't done their job yet.

Smoking is bad, I shouldn't HAVE to keep emphasizing this just to reduce the likelyhood of certain people on this forum taking what I say out of context (which they do anyway). BUT despite the fact smoking is bad, that does NOT mean 'nicotine is bad'. It doesn't mean nicotine is good either, it means smoking tobacco is bad, nothing else. The truth is the science is pretty unclear on how bad nicotine as a chemical substance actually is for the human body. The aforementioned goody goodys have contaminated the research and made it that much more difficult to find out the likely truth from the evidence due to their misguided belief that nicotine and smoking tobacco are synonymous.

Using an ecig is not smoking tobacco, it is using vaporized nicotine, it is NOT the same it is VERY VERY different from a chemical perspective. And the safety profiles are almost certainly different and almost certainly in favor of better health outcomes with ecigs. This hypothesis is so obvious that nobody outside of scientists need worry about it until there's evidence to contradict it. It's obvious because you're dealing with one potentially dangerous chemical versus an enormous cocktail of chemicals INCLUDING the former one.

The health nazi's are so fixated on their black and white mindset that they actually HARM smokers in the same way as the war on drugs has harmed drug users. Deliberately spreading ignorance and fear and using pathetic strawman arguments and fallacies to suggest that daring to inject reason and logic equates to you being a big tobacco sponsor. I for one am fed up with it.

Quote from: big kim on August 22, 2013, 04:43:08 PM
In the same way cocaine isn't quite as bad for you as heroin?

Case in point. Heroin is actually, as a pure chemical product, if used in a safe way (theoretically possible in the same way morphine can theoretically be misused and used safely), is definitely a very safe chemical by drug standards. Cocaine is too in fact as a theoretical local anesthetic, however it's rarely used for that purpose. Technically they both 'can' be used safely and medically, and technically cocaine has the slightly worse inherent safety profile of the two.

But of course just like smoking I'm sure some here would take what I've just said and twist it into meaning something I did not say. Because it's never 'quite evil enough' for that sort.

Quote from: Asfsd4214 on August 22, 2013, 07:59:21 PM
I have to stop reading threads like these, they irritate me so much.... oh great, now I want a cigarette too..... siiiiiigh

Ok so moving along, here's the problem with these threads. They're full of goody goody health nuts who won't let science, evidence, or even common sense get in the way of their black and white world view.

To them, smoking is bad.... now that's nothing sensational, as a smoker I think I speak for all of us when I say we ALL know it's bad for you, really really bad.

Problem is unlike most smokers, unlike a great many non-smokers too, the health police won't let the consensus on that aspect of smoking be good enough. If they haven't gotten everyone convinced that tobacco is the devil plant and that every puff releases a little bit of the smoldering pit of hell then they feel they haven't done their job yet.

Smoking is bad, I shouldn't HAVE to keep emphasizing this just to reduce the likelyhood of certain people on this forum taking what I say out of context (which they do anyway). BUT despite the fact smoking is bad, that does NOT mean 'nicotine is bad'. It doesn't mean nicotine is good either, it means smoking tobacco is bad, nothing else. The truth is the science is pretty unclear on how bad nicotine as a chemical substance actually is for the human body. The aforementioned goody goodys have contaminated the research and made it that much more difficult to find out the likely truth from the evidence due to their misguided belief that nicotine and smoking tobacco are synonymous.

Using an ecig is not smoking tobacco, it is using vaporized nicotine, it is NOT the same it is VERY VERY different from a chemical perspective. And the safety profiles are almost certainly different and almost certainly in favor of better health outcomes with ecigs. This hypothesis is so obvious that nobody outside of scientists need worry about it until there's evidence to contradict it. It's obvious because you're dealing with one potentially dangerous chemical versus an enormous cocktail of chemicals INCLUDING the former one.

The health nazi's are so fixated on their black and white mindset that they actually HARM smokers in the same way as the war on drugs has harmed drug users. Deliberately spreading ignorance and fear and using pathetic strawman arguments and fallacies to suggest that daring to inject reason and logic equates to you being a big tobacco sponsor. I for one am fed up with it.

Case in point. Heroin is actually, as a pure chemical product, if used in a safe way (theoretically possible in the same way morphine can theoretically be misused and used safely), is definitely a very safe chemical by drug standards. Cocaine is too in fact as a theoretical local anesthetic, however it's rarely used for that purpose. Technically they both 'can' be used safely and medically, and technically cocaine has the slightly worse inherent safety profile of the two.

But of course just like smoking I'm sure some here would take what I've just said and twist it into meaning something I did not say. Because it's never 'quite evil enough' for that sort.

Drugs are bad, mmkay

Quote from: musicofthenight on August 22, 2013, 08:47:37 AM
Allison, yours is exactly the kind of post that triggers a relapse.

The problem with nicotine is it has a very tight addiction cycle.  One smoke makes you want another, especially if you have a history of addiction.  This is why low-nicotine e-cigs, inhalers, or quit aids are never safe for someone who has quit, either cold turkey or by tapering down.

And, quite frankly, I don't trust the tobacco industry to produce a truly nicotine-free product.  This sucks - I want to learn to blow smoke rings, but I know I'm vulnerable to addiction so tobacco is out of the question.

I do get the sense that quit aids are expensive for no other reason than exploiting smokers.  This is certainly true of tobacco products in general.  Between Big Tobacco and Big Government you are doubly screwed.

I know you meant well but I think you were perhaps out of line in suggesting it could trigger a relapse. At a certain point, ALL talking about cigarettes can trigger a relapse, Alison was offering opinion and input that I felt was constructive and valid.

On a separate note, I don't think the tobacco industry (the industry that grows and processes the plants and produces the cigarettes) is actually the same as the ecig industry. I don't know for sure but I think they're separate.

I actually agree with you in large part about the quit aids (though at this point I feel I should also point out that there's no objective health difference between ecigs and various legitimate quit products), but some have benefited from them and I think it's perhaps misguided to suggest not trying them at all.

Lol damn, you beat me to it, Alice. Mkuy. Anyway...vape. my dad is opening up a business selling vapers. Vapors...however you spell it. They're delicious and have 3999 less chemicals than cigs. I love cigarettes, but smokin a vape tastes so much better. Just sayin'.

Tobacco contains MAOIs which potentiate nicotine.  I do not know whether e-cig solutions contain MAOIs or if they are the same ones.

I will agree vaporization gets rid of the tar and monoxide.  And harm-reduction is not a bad thing.

Pure nicotine is, from what I understand, a very different drug from nicotine in combination with a MAOI.  Much less psychoactive effect, much less addicting.

Like how coca leaves are about as harmful as coffee.  Maybe even less so. 

Quote from: Asfsd4214 on August 22, 2013, 08:07:27 PM
I know you meant well but I think you were perhaps out of line in suggesting it could trigger a relapse.

Reminiscing about the good times smoking is a pretty sure-fire way to trigger someone's cravings.

QuoteOn a separate note, I don't think the tobacco industry (the industry that grows and processes the plants and produces the cigarettes) is actually the same as the ecig industry. I don't know for sure but I think they're separate.

Ever heard of
MarkTen by Altria (Marlborough, Merit, Black and Mild, Chesterfield, Skoal)
VUSE by Reynolds (Camel, Kool, Winston, Pall Mall)
Blu by Lorillard (Newport, Maverick, Old Gold)

Yes, VMR's V2 is independent for one, but there's nothing keeping old tobacco out.

Quoteperhaps misguided to suggest not trying them at all.

Oh, goodness no!  They're for tapering off, which may be a good idea for any physically addictive substance.  They also let people deal with the mouth habit separately from the nicotine addiction.

But, and this is important, any source of nicotine trades cravings now for cravings later.  If it's been 72 hours since the last dose (in any form) there is no benefit, pharmacologically speaking, from any quit-aid.  I don't know if they tell you that.

Where I have a willpower to rival that of the gods; just reading about cigarettes doesn't actually make me want or need one. I mean it's been roughly a month since I last smoked and on the daily I see my mother smoke; my best friend smoke and I look at a Hashish Pipe daily and feel no urge to HAVE to smoke. But if you want to wane off cigarettes; e is the way to go... my best friend who smokes like a freight train used patches and they did absolutely nothing but make him want another cigarette where as the eCig made him forget he wasnt smoking a cig in the first place.

There is a huge benefit to stop-aids. I have no idea where you got that crazy idea. The principle of good e-cigarettes (those made for pharmaceutical purposes with precisely dosed nicotine and stuff) is to help you deal with your addiction to nicotine and your addiction to the action of smoking separately. You use your e-cigarette as you used to smoke, but you get progressively diminishing doses of nicotine, theoretically without realizing the difference if done right.

And at some point you don't inhale any nicotine anymore, and if you're still behaviorally addicted to smoking, well at some point you're supposed to realize that putting that thing in your mouth for nothing is sort of pointless and stop on your own. And actually if you end up smoking your nothingness forever, it's not like it's the end of the world, is it?