Over the last few months I have seen a huge number of posts here on the subject of when to come out, how long you can be on HRT before it becomes impossible to conceal what you are doing from others and when to go full time etc...

With a huge amount to lose if I got it wrong, I gave just as huge amount of thought to all of this as I navigated my way through a late transition. While everyone has to find their own way, after  a particularly enjoyable weekend in Paris going about my life as a woman, including a real fun evening in a Lesbian night club, I felt like sharing my thoughts on all of these questions. I have already provided bits of what follows in different posts but this is an attempt to tell the whole story in one document.  So this is a long post (mostly written in the train between Paris and my home town) but I hope it will be of help to those of you who are in a similar situation to me.  Even more so, I hope it will be useful to those of you who are much younger and facing choices that will impact almost every dimension of your lives forever.

So, to begin and regarding coming out, for many years the only one who was into to my little secret was my wife and our deal from the beginning was that I would only broaden the circle of people in the know when absolutely sure that I was going to go through with this transition. The logic behind this was to keep my options open as long as possible as I felt my way through the complex adventure that  a  "late transition" generally  is. Why?  Quite simply because a  very large number people are impacted by such a change late in life, from my wife and children (3 in my case) who also have to assume the fact that their  husband or Dad is now a woman, to siblings, friends and work colleagues.

Given this, I started HRT two years before anyone else other than my wife  was informed of what I was doing. During this period the most obvious change to my appearance was loss of body hair and breast growth and because of this I had to stop what had been my favorite sport, rowing. However that was it and nobody picked up on the very gradual changes.  Due to a lack of any quallified resource within a resonable distance, at this time I was unfortunately unable to do anything about facial hair removal.

The catalyst for coming out to a larger group of people, kids and close friends, was my upper face FFS which I did summer 2011. Apart from the very visble post surgery trauma, the changes to my forehead and nose were so pronounced that there was no hiding it but, to my kids in particular, I also explained that I would only go through with things completely if I was sure I can transition successfully  ie. be spontaneously perceived as a woman by others. While they were initially seriously blown over by my announcement, this particular detail made a huge difference. It was reassuring to them (and my wife BTW) because it dismissed any fears they may have had about being stuck with a Dad who looked like a "Man in a dress" and also gave them time since I wasn't planning on going full time until I was myself very convinced that I could pull it off successfully.

While notably more feminine in appearance after this first surgery, for the following year I continued to live as a guy in most aspects of my life, all the more so as I had still found no one to do my facial hair removal and getting this done is a vital prerequisite to going full time. Afterwards it's just too awkward as you have to let beard grow for at least 3 days before an electrolysis session.  However from year end 2011, I stopped getting my hair cut and, apart from a little tidying up, I have not had it cut since.

Summer 2012, I finally found  an electrologist a two hour drive from where I now live  and I also did my lower face FFS. The second surgery made a very dramatic difference, so much so that when I finally started living openly as a woman in Oct 2012, close friends and even my eldest daughter initially failed to recognize me when we first met up again.

During summer 2012, just before my second FFS surgery, I also came out at work and initially my employers, a small management consulting company, somewhat ironically specialized in "complex change management"  , were quite supportive.

However, the atmosphere soured when I started to come to the office as a woman, especially with one person. Unfortunately, this person was due to take over as boss of the firm and  end Oct 2012, I was told that they couldn't see me continuing with them and that they wanted to terminate me.  They cooked up a story about a mission they claimed I had messed up 5 months earlier but also made it clear that they thought what I was doing could be damaging to the reputation of the company. However, in an act of pure hypocrisy, they also requested that I continue with the mission I was then working on until it ended, end Jan 2013. Based on this, I thought about fighting it but decided that it wasn't worth it. In a small company, if you are not accepted by your colleagues you simply can't operate successfully. Against that, I was totally devastated and really believed for a few weeks that, at age 55, I was finished professionally. My feelings were made even worse by the fact that I felt I had betrayed my wife's trust and telling her what had happened remains  one of the most difficult things I ever had to do. It was one of the rare times in my life where I felt that I would be worth more to others dead than alive. Not a good place to be!

Happily the consulting mission I was then working on was going well and this finally provided the life belt I then desperately needed. There was a very interesting opening in the company which represented a little island of hope in what was otherwise a sea of desolation. I managed to focus on this,  went for it and I got the job.  End of the day, I moved seamlessly from my previous position to my present one, without losing as much as one day of work and picking up a nice little termination check in the process.

In my consulting job, while presenting as a woman in the office, I was still presenting as a man to our clients so, initially, my new employers were not aware of my situation.

However, given my position in the company, it would have been a major breach of trust to keep them in the dark so one month after I started I first informed our HR manager, a woman, and then my boss who is also CEO of the company.

They reacted very well all things considered . My boss did say that I should have told him before he hired me but when I answered with the question "Would you have hired me if I had?", he got the point and we both agreed to leave things at that for a few months to see how things worked out on the job before taking things any further.

Beginning of July he came back to me to say that he had thought about it a lot since our first discussion and that he was OK with me transitioning on the job and would do everything in his power to insure that it worked out for me. To explain this, his words were "I don't see what right I have to prevent you from being the person you really are". Given the professional nature of our relationship, that phrase is probably one of the most extraordinary things anyone has ever said to me and my boss got quite a fan in the process.

Since he gave me the green light in principle I came out individually to all of my other colleagues on the company management team (5 more people)  and while reactions were varied, from openly supportive to fairly cool,  I haven't yet picked up on any outright hostility.  The next few months will be interesting though.

End of October I'll be doing a facelift which should really finish off the feminization of my face, tidying up the area around my chin and jaw following last summer's very aggressive surgery. Present plan is for me to come out to the rest of the company (1900 people potentially in the know) just after this or after the year-end holidays. 

As is clear from all of this, it has been quite a journey and I still have to find the way to fit in GRS which I now really want to do.
However, from every point of view, I have never been in a better place in my life. I am finally living as the person I have wanted to live as from my earliest childhood memories and it has been done with minimum collateral damage.

In my mind,, things that were key to this were patience, actually having skills that were of real value to an employer and no doubt the fact that my appearance is now feminine enough for others to feel comfortable with me presenting as a woman.  This gets me to the point I most want to insist on with this post.

I'll be 56 shortly and am a member of a generation for whom transitioning was mostly not an option when we were at the age of most of the people I see posting here. The words to describe my condition hardly even existed and where I grew up there was absolutely nowhere to go to so much as discuss feelings that were no different to those I see here in post after post. So, what did we do?  Simple answer, we got on with life as best as we could. Sure there was a lot of unhappiness but I couldn't say there was only unhappiness because when you have no choice, you make the best of the situation you find yourself in. So, no threats of committing suicide if I couldn't get HRT or whatever, quite simply because I didn't even know that HRT existed at the time. Very hard to feel that frustrated about something you can't verbalize or visualize... Against that, the fact that information is now so readily available, with lots of visible "success stories" has certainly contributed to a certain "quick fix" attitude to the whole subject of transitioning. I get my magic pills and in a few months I'm living the life of my dreams...

Looking back, the real positive is that since transitioning was not an option, I used my early years to get a very good education which has definitely served me very well through life, playing a huge part in the pretty good story I can now tell. I think Cindy and others "veterans" here would probably say very similar things.

Overall, when you have a bit more to offer society than your "trans identity" ie. when you focus first of all on what you bring to the party rather than on your own personal issues, you can expect far more understanding from others in return.

So, to all the younger people in particular I would say think long and hard before rushing into a transition which will impact your life more than you can possibly imagine. Think that even if you "finally" get to live your gender identity openly, there is far more to life than gender identity. Being able to openly live in your real gender still leaves you with all the everyday issues of life, just that little bit more complicated when you are TG.  There is the obvious material issue of simple day to day survival but, with a decent education and some real drive it can be a lot better than just survival. Regarding this particular point you should be aware that all the energy you are putting into your transition is that much less available in setting yourself up in the other dimensions of your life. The price of this through the course of your life is potentially very high.

Same goes for relationships. If everything is reduced to your "trans identity", you are going to find yourself more or less closed into a ghetto but when you develop all the dimensions of your human potential, you can find yourself in a much better place. 

I am hoping that none of you will have to wait as long as I did to finally see my dreams come true but I also hope that you can see that there is a lot to be said for first getting yourself set up in life before taking on the challenge of a transition. Saying this can't be done, that waiting to transition is impossible may be true in a few very rare cases but for most of us, it is not only perfectly possible (many of us here prove it) it is probably the wisest course of action.

Wishing you all the very very best!
Donna

Well said, there is a lot of helpful information here if others take the time to read. It can be applied in someway to anyones life.

Izzy

Donna,

Thank you for sharing. The one point that probably resonates with me more than anything is that you took two full years on HRT before FFS, and before coming out to others. That seems glacial when I hear others talk, but it also means you have been fully financially independent and in control of your destiny as a result.  I am fortunate that I also have very marketable skills (the benefit of taking all of those math classes and a graduate accounting degree). Very good perspective, and as I start to consider HRT, it is good to remind myself that I don't need to fully come out at work or anywhere else on a fixed schedule. It's not a race, as easy as it is to sometimes become hyperfocused.

Thanks again,

Toni

A very nice considered post.

I agree entirely with the concept that if we can't go forward for some reason, use that time positively rather than give into despair. We still feel the despair but by concentrating on a useful activity we are doing something about it.

Very nice post that I enjoyed reading.

I can fully relate to the "not going fulltime unless I'm sure I can make it work" frame of mind. I entered my transition with no hard goals in place. Of course I'd love to achieve fulltime in the long run, but after spending my entire life as a self-destructive wreck who hated life I'm enjoying the vast improvement in the quality of my life.

Last thing I want is the pressure of being tunneled into some harsh time line. I'm enjoying the moment and taking my time on moving forward by what feels right for me.

It becomes really how much effort you put into it. Many days I'll be seen as male because at work it's how Im presenting until I find a new job (SOON I hope. ;_; ). But I see that look and sometimes a verbalization that people don't quite understand what they're looking at.. Ive had people that when I turn to them they go "O-S- Oh ok" along those lines..


I had a pharmacist say "Thank you, sir" today and I'll admit that I was like "Really?" Shook my head and walked off. I mean some people won't get the clue what you are despite that they just handed you a bottle of estradiol tablets..

I think Im ranting at this point. xD

IMO, Be what you want. You can talk and look however you want to and you don't need to put a title on it. I wear makeup all the time and most places I will use the name Kelly, and Im slowly transitioning to using it everywhere. I don't feel physically ready to move into living full time, but at the same time.. I don't believe in hiding what I am.

As a follow up to my particularly long post above, today I had a discussion with my boss and our HR manager regarding path forward to finally transitioning on the job. It was a discussion that left me feeling I might have my first opportunity to do a post in the "Both happy and unhappy at the same time" thread. I was happy because they are clearly serious about allowing me go through with my transition on the job. There is no ambiguity about this and that in itself is tremendously positive.

I was unhappy as this will only happen when my Civil Identity Change comes through and, given the ambiguous state of French law, this may require first doing GRS. The answer depends on the judge's appreciation of how irreversible the changes already made are. As it happens I have no problem about doing GRS, on the contrary, the sooner the better.  However, because of immediate work obligations, the very earliest I could do GRS is next June and more likely, end 2014. Quite a frustrating situation given how advanced I already am in my transition, both mentally and physically,  but that's life!

In order to get around the GRS issue , all of this will be argued in the Civil Identity Change  filing which will include a letter from my employers explaining the situation. Hopefully this will be enough for me to get a favorable decision in which case I may be able to finally turn the page early next year.

Making a successful transition, in this part of the world at least,  really does require a massive amount of perseverance and on days like today I felt that more acutely than ever.
Donna.

Quote from: Antonia J on August 25, 2013, 04:33:54 PM
Donna,

Thank you for sharing. The one point that probably resonates with me more than anything is that you took two full years on HRT before FFS, and before coming out to others. That seems glacial when I hear others talk, but it also means you have been fully financially independent and in control of your destiny as a result.  I am fortunate that I also have very marketable skills (the benefit of taking all of those math classes and a graduate accounting degree). Very good perspective, and as I start to consider HRT, it is good to remind myself that I don't need to fully come out at work or anywhere else on a fixed schedule. It's not a race, as easy as it is to sometimes become hyperfocused.

Thanks again,

Toni

Quote from: OrchidBliss on August 25, 2013, 05:00:26 PM
Very nice post that I enjoyed reading.

I can fully relate to the "not going fulltime unless I'm sure I can make it work" frame of mind. I entered my transition with no hard goals in place. Of course I'd love to achieve fulltime in the long run, but after spending my entire life as a self-destructive wreck who hated life I'm enjoying the vast improvement in the quality of my life.

Last thing I want is the pressure of being tunneled into some harsh time line. I'm enjoying the moment and taking my time on moving forward by what feels right for me.

Hi Toni & Orchidbliss
I've been thinking about your reactions above since you posted them and a conversation I had with my boss today made me think about them even more.

I did indeed make a conscious decision very early in this process to only go forward with a full transition if I was generally perceived by others as a woman (BTW, right now there is an interesting discussion on perception in this thread: https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,147300.msg1215439.html#msg1215439)

This, for me, was a condition both for preserving relationships that counted massively to me and for my own happiness with my physique ie. actually liking what I saw looking back at me in the mirror.

Based on the idea that "Real communication is the response you get" the litmus test was getting to a point where I was systematically correctly gendered. After this point was reached, my gut feeling was that there would be little problem completing my transition.

What my boss said to me today more or less confirmed that. He basically said that I looked too feminine to be able to enter the next phase of my job which will involve far more contacts with our clients while still presenting as a man. Based on this, my company will be giving me a letter almost pleading with the court to authorize my civil identity change as quickly as possible. They have also agreed in principle to allow me the time to do my GRS next summer, most likely early next July, just before things slow down for the two summer months.

So yes, by not coming out too early and by doing things little by little, I always allowed myself the possiblity of turning back or at least reducing my ambitions until I was reasonably sure the path forward would provide a happy outcome both for me and those who are close to me. Quite obviously I always hoped this would happen but my face in particular was so masculine to begin with, it was far from a foregone conclusion.
Warm regards.
Donna   

Quote from: Donna Elvira on August 28, 2013, 03:30:14 PM
s.
So yes, by not coming out too early and by doing things little by little, I always allowed myself the possiblity of turning back or at least reducing my ambitions until I was reasonably sure the path forward would provide a happy outcome both for me and those who are close to me. Quite obviously I always hoped this would happen but my face in particular was so masculine to begin with, it was far from a foregone conclusion.

Hi Donna,

It is interesting to consider the time horizon, especially when reflecting on the dynamics that make us all so unique. I am curious about your pre-transition level of dysphoria, as well as overall physique. You mentioned rowing and that you were quite active, and you also indicated your face was masculine. I am guessing that you were quite fit, especially in the upper body. I am curious of your statement where you say that successful transition was far from a foregone conclusion. If this is the case, how did you reconcile the thought with your dysphoria? Was HRT enough for you to feel complete and align your body and mind? 

The reason I ask the question above is that for many of us, and I would put myself in the camp, there is a good possibility of never passing. I am considering that I may always be viewed as that "man in a dress." I am a very decent looking male with broad chest and shoulders, a neck like a body builder, and moderate to severe MPB. I am close to 2 meters (6 feet) tall. I have a slender build at 72 kilos (about 160 lbs), but there is no camouflaging me for anything different than the body I was born into -- at least not that I can see.

So the struggle I have, and it is one you have already considered, is determining what level of dysphoria can be managed through what level of transition? Right now, I am accepting that I will begin HRT within the next few weeks bar any medical issues. I am also pursuing aggressive hair restoration.  Even with FFS in a couple of years, and HRT over that span, my passability is uncertain. I am willing to wait and see.

The question I would ask you is, "Given how complete you feel now, would you have still fully transitioned if you had no hope for passing?" If not, then how would you have managed your dysphoria? The question is not meant to solicit an answer that is applicable to everyone. I am genuinely curious about your own thought process and considerations as you went through the transition. What did you come to accept about where you would go, what were you willing to stop at, and how did you arrive at the decisions you made?

As always, I appreciate your thoughtful and thorough replies. 

Best,

Toni

Quote from: Antonia J on August 28, 2013, 06:00:39 PM
Hi Donna,

It is interesting to consider the time horizon, especially when reflecting on the dynamics that make us all so unique. I am curious about your pre-transition level of dysphoria, as well as overall physique. You mentioned rowing and that you were quite active, and you also indicated your face was masculine. I am guessing that you were quite fit, especially in the upper body. I am curious of your statement where you say that successful transition was far from a foregone conclusion. If this is the case, how did you reconcile the thought with your dysphoria? Was HRT enough for you to feel complete and align your body and mind? 

The reason I ask the question above is that for many of us, and I would put myself in the camp, there is a good possibility of never passing. I am considering that I may always be viewed as that "man in a dress." I am a very decent looking male with broad chest and shoulders, a neck like a body builder, and moderate to severe MPB. I am close to 2 meters (6 feet) tall. I have a slender build at 72 kilos (about 160 lbs), but there is no camouflaging me for anything different than the body I was born into -- at least not that I can see.

So the struggle I have, and it is one you have already considered, is determining what level of dysphoria can be managed through what level of transition? Right now, I am accepting that I will begin HRT within the next few weeks bar any medical issues. I am also pursuing aggressive hair restoration.  Even with FFS in a couple of years, and HRT over that span, my passability is uncertain. I am willing to wait and see.

The question I would ask you is, "Given how complete you feel now, would you have still fully transitioned if you had no hope for passing?" If not, then how would you have managed your dysphoria? The question is not meant to solicit an answer that is applicable to everyone. I am genuinely curious about your own thought process and considerations as you went through the transition. What did you come to accept about where you would go, what were you willing to stop at, and how did you arrive at the decisions you made?

As always, I appreciate your thoughtful and thorough replies. 

Best,

Toni

Hi Toni,
I had to wait for the weekend before attempting to answer your questions as most evenings when I get home, I am just too tired for writing anything too complexe...and you ask quite a lot of questions! 

To start at the beginning, I have been struggling with my dysphoria for what seems like forever and even if I wasn't able to put words at it at the time, my inner conflicts were the reason I ran away from home when I was 18 and even joined the French Foreign Legion. I simply did not know who I was and since I couldn't accept my very strong identification with the woman inside me, which made me feel like some sort of perverse freak at the time, I jumped into an ultra-masculine environment. From all the stuff I have read here, it seems lots of others have also gone down this path.

After I got out of the army (5 year contract), I tried to get my life back on the road and went back to school. I was already 23 at this stage and felt it was make or break. Happily it worked out very well but less happily I got myself into a very bad mariage which lasted 18 years. I also continued to struggle with my dysphoria including going to see a psychiatrist shortly after I got out of the army (1982). This person oriented the whole discussion towards my (insane) desire to have babies and after 3 sessions, feeling both humiliated and misunderstood, I stopped, never to see anyone again until 1996. (Makes me feel very old all of a sudden.. ) In 1996, I had the privilege of doing a week long group psychotherapy which led me to understand just how much I hated myself but still without quite fully understanding the underlying causes. I was enough to get me out of my mariage though and I initiated the divorce proceedings 3 years later.

This created the space to allow me to openly experiment with my feminity, cross-dressing at home and later going out "en femme" to clubs and other safe places. From about 2003 onwards, every woman I met with whom I developed any sort of relationship got to hear about Donna. It was also the case of my second wife who I met in 2005 and more than anyone I had met prior to that, she accepted me totally as I was, creating the space for more experimenting which has got me to where I am today.

As you mention, I have been serious athlete for many many years with a physique very like what you describe about yourself, 73-74 kgs for just under 6' 1" . However I have rather narrow shoulders and a generally slim build so that wasn't and still isn't a big issue. No my biggest issue by far was my face and if you sign up on the Yahoo FFS Support forum, where I have a souvenir album, you will see just how much work there was to do.

This was my biggest obstacle to going forward with a transition where my concern, both for myself and those who are dear to me, was to insure that the cure wasn't worse than the "disease". In answer to your question " "would you have still fully transitioned if you had no hope for passing?"    the answer is therefore no, at least while I still had to work as it would have been professional suicide possibly leading to suicide full stop. Like so many others here, I have had enough suicidal thoughts over my life to prefer not to get myself into the danger zone in this domaine.

No doubt I would have been lot less happy than I am now but, as I have said in quite a few other posts, including the initial one here, while gender dysphoria has had a huge impact on my life, happily my life hasn't only been about this and I have always been able to enjoy enough other things to be able to survive and sometimes do much better than that!  Would I have been able to go on like that indefinitely?  I really don't know and apparently never will but most likely answer is yes as there has  almost always been enough happiness in my existance to make life worth living no matter what.

Hope that answers your questions.
Warmest regards.
Donna

Donna, thank you for sharing your life experience. Your caring for others and balancing your own needs with perspective is truly beneficial to me. Thank you, very well done.

Quote from: Cynthia Michelle on September 02, 2013, 02:01:45 PM
Donna, thank you for sharing your life experience. Your caring for others and balancing your own needs with perspective is truly beneficial to me. Thank you, very well done.

Hi Cynthia. Thank you for the feedback. As a very social person, I feel pretty passionately about many of these questions and am very happy to know that my thoughts and experience are useful to some of you.
Hugs
Donna

Donna, 

Not to disagree with you because I haven't transitioned as you have. I agree that some of us need a slow transition , maybe yes to accept ones self.  What I wonder?  How can you say that you never would have transitioned if you wouldn't have passed?  How could you know and if you spent all that time and what if it didn't end up like you hoped?  I am older than you and I hope to accept myself soon and I don't think that totally passing will be the all ends all although of course desirable. But maybe it's just how I feel? 

You are very introspective and I really enjoyed your post.  Take care.

Samantha

Quote from: Samantha.Stone on September 02, 2013, 11:14:23 PM
Donna, 

Not to disagree with you because I haven't transitioned as you have. I agree that some of us need a slow transition , maybe yes to accept ones self.  What I wonder?  How can you say that you never would have transitioned if you wouldn't have passed?  How could you know and if you spent all that time and what if it didn't end up like you hoped?  I am older than you and I hope to accept myself soon and I don't think that totally passing will be the all ends all although of course desirable. But maybe it's just how I feel? 

You are very introspective and I really enjoyed your post.  Take care.

Samantha

Hi Samantha and thanks for your message. I didn't actually say I would never have transitioned, what I said was this:

"In answer to your question " "would you have still fully transitioned if you had no hope for passing?"    the answer is therefore no, at least while I still had to work as it would have been professional suicide possibly leading to suicide full stop. Like so many others here, I have had enough suicidal thoughts over my life to prefer not to get myself into the danger zone in this domaine"

As it happens, I'm not sure that at our age we can ever pass completely, at least not under close scrutiny.  However what does seem achievable, I believe I have actually achieved it, is to be passable enough not to be an object of ridicule, stares or worse. I don't think I could have handled that myself and couldn't have imagined myself imposing this on those who are close to me either.
Hugs
Donna

Quote from: Donna Elvira on September 03, 2013, 01:29:03 PM
As it happens, I'm not sure that at our age we can ever pass completely, at least not under close scrutiny.  However what does seem achievable, I believe I have actually achieved it, is to be passable enough not to be an object of ridicule, stares or worse. I don't think I could have handled that myself and couldn't have imagined myself imposing this on those who are close to me either.

What do you think it is about "your age" that disallows you from passing completely? It is often said on these forums that age is irrelevant. Would you think it's physicality or extensive male history or both?

Quote from: Nicolette on September 03, 2013, 01:40:54 PM
What do you think it is about "your age" that disallows you from passing completely? It is often said on these forums that age is irrelevant. Would you think it's physicality or extensive male history or both?

Hi Nicolette,
In answer to your question, mostly the fact that the impact of HRT is generally much less pronounced than with the younger ladies. For example while my skin texture is very feminine, my cheeks never really filled out. Also I can't see a huge amount of fat distribution taking place which means I will always have a rather masculine looking body.
However in terms of behaviours, attitudes etc.  I have been told by just about everyone that I am very feminine so it looks like that side of things is probably OK.
Anyway, since I am still quite a young transitioner, please allow me time to change my mind over the years ahead...
Hugs
Donna