Quote from: dreaming.forever on August 17, 2013, 03:01:12 PM
http://www.wpath.org/documents/SOC%20V7%2003-17-12.pdf

Also available right here on Susan's Place for easy reference: https://www.susans.org/wiki/Standards_of_Care_for_Gender_Identity_Disorders

thank you, suitsme. i didn't make it myself, but i was really happy to find just what i was thinking about when i searched around a little. whenever i learn the skills to make those color wheels myself, i might try to make one that isn't kind of copyrighted by someone else. i've thought for a long time about it, the spectrum was never enough, just mixing red and blue left out too much, and in the end i realized i really do need all the colors in order to make it work.

and now, to figure out where infrared and ultraviolet fit in. i really wish i could see ultraviolet, it's so sad to think that there are colors out there which we will never know just because our eyes can't register them. maybe there are genders to which we have difficulties recognizing for somewhat similar reasons.

I know a lot of us can feel that way at times.
Genders we can't recognize.
We weren't recognized at one time.
Well we were, but then Psychology was invented and we no longer existed.
And now we do again. In greater numbers it seems.
But a gender that could be totally invisible to us?
Now that is something to think about.
Mental gymnastics.
I wonder if they hang out in the forest?
Ativan

if they're invisible, they could be anywhere. in the city, in the forest. maybe even outside the forest (i really wonder what's out there...)

Quote from: Taka on August 29, 2013, 06:42:10 AM
if they're invisible, they could be anywhere. in the city, in the forest. maybe even outside the forest (i really wonder what's out there...)

The Great Plains, maybe? 
Alternate universes where gender isn't an issue? 
Another curious thing to ponder.
Visible light is such a small part of the spectrum.
Do we really expect gender to end at the visible edges of what we perceive?
How wonderful to think that it could be so much bigger than what we think it is.
There could be so much more to us that we can explore and discover.
Diversity that extends beyond the visible spectrum of gender.
It makes bigotry seem so much smaller in it's flawed logic, than it already is.
Indeed, we are so much more than we already know.
Ativan

Ativan and Taka, reading you two go back and forth is like brain candy! I love it!

And it really does help me conceptualize gender so much better than I ever could before.

brain candy? that's a delicious way to call it.
last night when i started thinking about it, i suddenly found this rather similar to the buddhist meditations over things like the number of leaves on a tree, grains of sand in the ocean, or the number of stars in the sky. an exact number that is impossible to count. the chinese even have a numeral that means either an exact extremely high number, or the exact number of stars in the sky. depends a little on whether you're dealing with maths or philosophy.

and these gender discussions strike me as something very similar to that. it's impossible to see the whole picture, so we can only imagine, but even imagining it is extremely difficult. but i believe that the more we talk about it and share those thoughts and experiences that we have, the closer we get to revealing the fact that is hidden somewhere deep below the surface.

Quote from: Ativan Prescribed on August 29, 2013, 12:30:15 PM
The Great Plains, maybe? 
Alternate universes where gender isn't an issue? 
Another curious thing to ponder.
Visible light is such a small part of the spectrum.
Do we really expect gender to end at the visible edges of what we perceive?
How wonderful to think that it could be so much bigger than what we think it is.
There could be so much more to us that we can explore and discover.
Diversity that extends beyond the visible spectrum of gender.
It makes bigotry seem so much smaller in it's flawed logic, than it already is.
Indeed, we are so much more than we already know.
Ativan

we're still only seeing the smallest part of the picture if we haven't even been to the great plains yet.
that we can't see it doesn't mean that it doesn't exist. just like the funny europeans who made the conclusion that there all swans are white, simply because they'd never seen a black swan.
this whole gender thing has a practical part, and a philosophical part. i really like how we can talk about the philosophical part of it here. maybe it takes an awareness of more than just the binaries to be able to think this far about it.

humans are interesting.
and the world becomes so much more interesting through different humans' experiences.
when you and i see something differently, i find it worth discussing this. is it the thing itself that is different to us, or is it our perceptions? and how far can we even trust our own perceptions? i found evidence of being something i am not, and only realized when i saw myself from a different angle. never thought about going around to look at another side. there's no fence or anything hindering me rom going there, but i believed in other people who told me that i'm supposed to stay on only one side. and what i saw on that one side wasn't really all that contrary to what everybody, including myself, expected to see.

We are taught or trained to think of things as having restrictions that we shouldn't go beyond.
Barriers that shouldn't be crossed. Practicality is often the reason.
It results in boxes of knowledge that we are supposed to stay inside of.
We don't usually think outside the box, but make the box bigger.
Technological advancements within the barriers, by pushing the barriers out a little.
We pride ourselves on our ability to do that. Normal stuff for most things.
I am often accused 'IRL' of going off on tangents that are hard to follow.
I delete far more stuff than I actually post. Wild tangents of thoughts can be hard to follow.

Words and terms like 'no', 'that's not possible' 'can't be done', just won't do.
There's the challenge for me. There's that opportunity to defy commonly held beliefs.
Wild tangents of thought are not uncommon for me. Or for most people.
But putting those thoughts back into coherent ideas can be difficult.
There is the fun in the challenge for me.
I don't want to just push the barriers of beliefs outward, I want to smash through them.

Everyone has ideas and viewpoints about things. Their perceptions.
Combine them into something coherent and the barriers are moved.
My thoughts and ideas are nothing more than that.
Making a more coherent idea out of perceptions.
Here, I rely on everyones ideas and perceptions.
Sometimes they seem to produce an original thought, I don't really know.
I pay attention to what we all have to say and summarize it in my own way.
I'm grateful for all the astute people who wander the paths of the forest.

But ahh... those wild tangents of thoughts and ideas are so much fun to explore.
We're told not to go there. I think of them, because of that, as the darker paths.
Somewhere out there is the greater truths behind our walls of perception.
Out there is the Great Plains. Very little for landmarks. No maps to follow.
No restrictions in thoughts but your own. But you soon lose sight of even those.
The trick is to make it back with an idea of how to traverse such a place.
Seemingly random landmarks, a way to get to each one, from one to the next.

Taking seemingly random things and putting them together into something that seems apparent is fun.
The farther you go in the more you will find.
It's a great delight in finding someone else along the way, doing the same thing.
Comparing notes about all the wild things out there on the Great Plains of Perception.
We leave markers that others can find, can see. Sometimes a beacon of sorts, to light the way.
The sharing of discoveries is grand in it's ability to change perceptions in even subtle ways.
It's where I get satisfaction out of life.
To be able to share that with someone is one of the true pleasures in living.
Ativan

Quote from: Ativan Prescribed on August 30, 2013, 09:27:19 AM
We are taught or trained to think of things as having restrictions that we shouldn't go beyond.
Barriers that shouldn't be crossed.

Non plus ultra.

The Pillars of Hercules.

Turn back, or you'll fall off the edge of the world.

Quote from: Ativan Prescribed on August 30, 2013, 09:27:19 AM
I am often accused 'IRL' of going off on tangents that are hard to follow.

I get that too. I'm definitely a tangent talker. If you let me keep rambling, my mind goes off into analogies that lead to other ideas, and I completely lose sight of the topic.

My therapist used to tell me to come back down to Earth, but he's since learned that that's just the way I communicate my ideas.

Quote from: Ativan Prescribed on August 30, 2013, 09:27:19 AM
I don't want to just push the barriers of beliefs outward, I want to smash through them.

That reminds me of a (bad) poem I wrote after I came out. It was all violent imagery and empowerment.

Break the chains.
Tear the flesh.
Breathe. Scream!
And when you transcend the body,
Stare back into the abyss, and
Burn your image into the face of God.

Let it be clear
You will no longer be denied.
This is your nature;
The crux of your being.
It is your Anima.
It is the color of your soul.

As you shout the words-
Naked, but with eyes ablaze;
Defiant beneath Suppression's grip-
You will crush its brittle hands,
Peel them from your throat,
And smile into its dying eyes.

"I am stronger than you,"
You will tell it,
"I am no longer afraid.
I am Transgender;
And by speaking my name
I set myself free!"

The God reference is figurative. If it offends anyone – sorry.

Quote from: Ativan Prescribed on August 30, 2013, 09:27:19 AM
Taking seemingly random things and putting them together into something that seems apparent is fun.
The farther you go in the more you will find.
It's a great delight in finding someone else along the way, doing the same thing.
Comparing notes about all the wild things out there on the Great Plains of Perception.
We leave markers that others can find, can see. Sometimes a beacon of sorts, to light the way.
The sharing of discoveries is grand in it's ability to change perceptions in even subtle ways.
It's where I get satisfaction out of life.
To be able to share that with someone is one of the true pleasures in living.

+1

I started to respond, but you said it so perfectly my response reminded me of my favorite movie line:

"My mind is aglow with whirling, transient nodes of thought careening through a cosmic vapor of invention."

"Ditto!"

i love your poem, jillian. it's not so bad as you seem to think, there are many forms of poetry and i've heard a young swedish woman express herself in a rather similar way, just with much more rhyme. it touches people's hearts when they just sit down to listen. you might have the ability to do that, i feel like sharing that poem of yours.

that said, i'm also a tangent person. i really don't know how to express myself other than through analogies, if i start talking about things in a more down to earth way, it becomes too down to earth, and all the emotion and wonder is lost from the expression. talking on tangents also reveals so much more of the vastness of this world, the possibilities, and how limitations are mostly only in my mind. to me, it's not about mind over matter, but surpassing my own mind to reach greater heights. that requires a little bit of trickery, and a lot of help from others who understand wth i'm talking about.

in a way, you could say i'm searching for a forgotten enlightenment. i already know the answer, now i'm just trying to wring it out of my own mind. i find the androgyne forums here a good place to find interesting tools to use, and the mind-bending is a good way for myself to regain contact with the ground i'm only barely touching when the traps in my mind become too overwhelming and i can't remember that there's an exit, and many paths leading to it.