I just had an interesting conversation with my roommate this afternoon, and I though I would share it with everyone, because I thought it was a pretty poignant realization.

Basically, I was talking to my roommate Jenny about "passing." I said that I was kind of curious now looking back at my life, if maybe I'd met some transsexual people before but just didn't know about it. Jenny said, "well, I think you'd know if you had. I think I could pick out a trans person pretty well."

Now, Jenny has a very close FtM transsexual friend from high school. I met him almost as soon as I met Jenny and all of her other friends, but Jenny didn't tell me he was trans until months later.

"Well, what about Drew? I had no idea that he was transsexual until you told me. I would never have guessed it otherwise."

Jenny gave me a really crooked look, and said "Really? You couldn't tell?" And she said it in a tone that genuinely said to me that to her, when she looks at Drew, she still sees him as not completely passing.

But I was NOT exaggerating when I said that I couldn't tell whatsoever. Yes, Drew is extremely short for a guy. Yes, he had a bit of a baby face. But I would have NEVER guessed that he was transsexual unless Jenny had told me outright. I would have just assumed that he was that one guy that always somehow ends up mixed up into a group of female friends for some reason.

Then I realized something. Jenny knew him pre-transition. Jenny knew him as Angela, and therefore got to know him as a girl. So now when she sees him, she still sees the same girl that she was friends with in high school, not the guy that he became halfway through college. I, on the other hand, had NEVER known Drew pre-transition. I only knew him as male. And thus, when I think of him in my mind, I just see him as a normal guy, just as much as I think of any other male as a guy. And even after seeing pictures of him pre-transition, I still just see him as a guy, because that's all that I've personally known him as.

The point is... I was counting on Jenny's opinion a lot to tell me how I was coming along in terms of transition. But I've realized something. She knew me pre-transition. That's the me that she knows, and that's the me that she pictures in her mind when she thinks of me. And thus, no matter how much I feminize, she'll still be seeing me as that same person. So asking her if I look like a girl or not yet, the answer is never going to be yes, because she's always going to see that same person that she's always known me as. And it's the same for me. I know what I looked like as a male. So I'm always going to be able to see a guy in me somewhere.

But this doesn't mean that it's true. Again... to Jenny, Drew was not passable. To me, Drew was just a normal guy, and I was shocked to find out that he was trans.

Just something to keep in mind for those of you who are having problems with self-acceptance in regards to passing, and acceptance from friends and other people who already knew you as your birth gender. As much as we love them, they're not the best people to gauge how our progress is coming. What we really need to look at instead, is what people who have never even met us before think. Because unlike our friends and our own perceptions, which are used to seeing what we used to look like, people we've never met before are entering our lives with no bias whatsoever. And odds are actually good that most of them have no freaking clue that there's anything "different" about us, because they've only ever known us as our identity gender, and therefore that's who we are to them.

So the next time you're struggling with a lack of recognition from your friends and your self, feeling like you'll never be accepted as your identity gender, like you'll never make it, remember... the amount of people who knew you pre-transition is very small. The world is full of people who are only now seeing what you look like for the very first time... at the supermarket, at the gas station, at work, everywhere. And odds are, those people would be shocked to think of you as ever having been anyone else aside from who you are.

You bring up some very good points Carrie Liz    I have noticed this also

It depends on the person but to an extent this is definitely a factor.
I have a suspicion that this issue occurs depending on how the individual thinks of you. As in are you the same person you were before just slightly more girlish/mannish or are you an entirely different person.

I've seen the topic "Are we the same people post transition." regardless of what we think I think our peers have there own opinions on this issue.

A male friend of mine who I've known since I was 4 had a hard time, accidentally referring to me as a male every so often for nearly 2 years after I transitioned, he explained when it clicked for him.
I went to a party around his house and I got REALLY drunk, after having fun I ended up vomiting on myself... Nice... anyway begin the gentleman he offered me one of his old shirts a huge baggy shirt that I had to wear as a nightie, he came up to check on me later that night and he saw me passed out peacefully on the edge of his bed... For him it clicked there because in his mind he explained that he thought "Well thats Martin, He just calls himself something different now and wears a dress."
It was when he saw me in an unflattering pose wearing boy clothes and seeing how they didn't fit my frame at all, my hair a mess, He got it. I even remember from my semi-concious state, him saying. "Huh, you actually are a woman." Which is how I remembered to ask him what that was about.

It is interesting to note that alot of my friends who have adjusted much better are those friends who when I asked them about it tend to think of me as an entirely different person now. As Caroline put it, "I don't think of you as the same person, I knew a person called Martin, He moved away and I met a girl called Alice."

A similar disconnect happens in people who've always known me as a female.
"I don't like thinking about how you used to be a boy, it's unsettling, Because your a lady, and I know I've seen the pictures! But that's not you... That's some stranger your showing me a picture of." Where I then joke that I'm a timelord and that's one of my past regenerations.

^Very interesting stories.

Okay, so I guess in the case of Jenny and Drew, she hasn't really gotten a chance to know him much post-transition. They still hang out, but it's always with the same group of friends, doing the same things, and she only sees him like maybe once a month or so, where in high school, pre-transition, she saw him every day. So I guess that plays a part.

It diffently depends on the person, for some people like homeless old folks I dont pass very well for some reason, but for people around my own age I pass with no problems. I also had a transwoman I considered passing but then to a party a lady asked if she was a man or a woman. ? what? that obvious she is a woman! hmm aperently not for her?

Quote from: pebbles on September 01, 2013, 05:51:50 AM
A similar disconnect happens in people who've always known me as a female.
"I don't like thinking about how you used to be a boy, it's unsettling, Because your a lady, and I know I've seen the pictures! But that's not you... That's some stranger your showing me a picture of." Where I then joke that I'm a timelord and that's one of my past regenerations.

one of my transfriend seen picture of me being 5-14 years old, he couldnt belive it was me, he said said that I looked so diffrent like I changed my whole personalety and everything since then and he couldnt reconize anything in me. it actually made me kinda depressed cause I dont want to think I changed as a person  .

Quote from: Natkat on September 01, 2013, 02:40:16 PM
It diffently depends on the person, for some people like homeless old folks I dont pass very well for some reason, but for people around my own age I pass with no problems. I also had a transwoman I considered passing but then to a party a lady asked if she was a man or a woman. ? what? that obvious she is a woman! hmm aperently not for her?

one of my transfriend seen picture of me being 5-14 years old, he couldnt belive it was me, he said said that I looked so diffrent like I changed my whole personalety and everything since then and he couldnt reconize anything in me. it actually made me kinda depressed cause I dont want to think I changed as a person  .

I'd think of it more like you weren't yourself before and now you are, not that you changed into a different person really.

I think you do have a point.  My mother only sees F when she looks at me, and it shocked her when people who didn't know me (ie cashiers, her friends) instantly referred to me with male pronouns.  I recently met another trans guy.  He is out.  I can NOT even imagine him pre-transition, he is male. Period. 

That said, your friend should not have outed Drew to you, either. It wasn't her place to do that.


Jay

Carrie, you bring up a really good point, and I had a similar experience.

A woman had recently joined our church and I was chatting with her on Sunday during coffee hour. She'd ask how long I'd been going this church and I told her, "Twenty-four year total, but about 1 since I started transition."

"Transition? Is that when you became a pledging member?

She was asking about my relationship with the church, not a gender transition. I explained what I meant, saying David had been going the church for about 23 years and Connie had been going for about 1, so it was 24 total.

She'd then said she'd had no idea that I wasn't born female.

We'd known each other for about 3 or 4 months when this conversation took place. She wasn't at this church when I gave my talk about transitioning. She'd never me the "prior" me. She'd only known Connie. So, to her I "passed" until I'd outed myself.

As far as I can remember I've never explicitly asked my girlfriend about this, except that I don't think she's ever slipped up since I came out to her (I think I thought that she had once, but it turned out that she'd said "sorry" and I heard it as my birthname, which I do quite often, I double take and then realise what she said.)  She's always trying to convince me not to wear a binder because to her she doesn't see anything out of the ordinary there, but there plainly is if you look.  Part of that might just be her paranoia that I might be hurting myself though.

And if you're going to slip up it's either going to be in the middle of the night when you're half asleep, or when you're very *distracted*, if you catch my drift... both times she's called me Alex.  I think that's a pretty good judge of how someone thinks of you, if they still refer to you completely as you even when they're clearly not focussing on making an effort (being drunk would be another good time I suppose, but she doesn't drink.)

No one else has known me before and after, other than one guy I've never seen since, but he's referred to me as male before to my girlfriend (I wiped her iPod clean and they share music so he had to put it back on), and he knows I'm trans, and has seen me when I was getting called by my birthname before.

I really do think there might be something in this though, one member on here in particular comes to mind, Dominick, who surfaces now and then convinced that he doesn't pass because his family tells him he hasn't changed appearance at all.  To all of us that's clearly rubbish, but to them maybe it isn't, and they really can't see that he's changed, or they're playing some sick weird mind games with him.  It does take a while for what you see in front of you to catch up with the image in your mind sometimes though, I ended up at the same school from someone from my primary school a while ago, and for a year or two I still saw him as the child he was when he was 7 or 8, until it finally clicked in my head that he wasn't that kid who tried to set up the "Playground Police" with me any more.  Maybe if I'd spoken to him in between it would have been quicker, I don't know.

Quote from: Glitterfly on September 02, 2013, 12:05:09 PM
Constance, I have to ask: why would anyone want to go back to being seen as a male after everyone sees her as a female? What possible reason would anyone have...?

Um, I don't understand what you mean. I went "full-time" about 2 years ago and have not gone back to a male presentation during that time. I do talk openly about my transition, is that what you mean?

I honestly have no idea what the friends who knew me pre-transition think. I do know that they use the right name and pronouns - even when I'm not around. People that have met me since often have no idea about my past until I open my mouth and mention it..

Here's an example.. I was recently out clubbing with an exGF, at a very GLBT friendly venue - a place, quite frankly, I expected to get clocked.. Several times me exGF dropped in to the conversation, quite casually, that I had once been her BF.. No one believed her - even with me baacking her up.

Quote from: Glitterfly on September 02, 2013, 11:06:50 PM
Yes, that baffles me. Is it your political agenda?

I don't see why it has to be an "agenda."

Quote from: Glitterfly on September 02, 2013, 03:05:07 AM
Their lives are a bit harsher and their senses a bit more acute. So maybe anyone who's truly worried about passing should go find a sober homeless person with a piercing gaze to look you over from head to toe and then see how they react... haha xD Sorry, just a funny thought!

I guess I pass well then. I was outside this walgreen's the other day and this homeless guy was asking me for change, and he was sober, i think, and he started hitting on me lol telling me how gorgeous I am lol but then my BF walked out and he stopped real fast.

Quote from: Glitterfly on September 03, 2013, 12:13:42 AM
haha that's great ^_^ Next challenge: a 70-year-old Polish grandmother who's survived 2 wars, only eats turnips and doesn't need a crutch to walk or glasses to see... xD *just being silly*

Too late. Challenge accepted!

This is actually a very deeply nuanced phenomenon on which I think somebody could probably do a whole thesis.  People that knew you before have a really hard time seeing you without their old image of you overlayed, unless a eureka moment like in Pebble's story happens.  People that never knew about your past can't see you ever being anything but your current gender/sex.

The latter, not a big deal, it's a great thing actually for most of us;  the former, we would love to know how to help people have that eureka moment, especially without having to make things too jarring or causing too much extra grief for our loved ones.  Once people start truly seeing us as being a member of our proper sex, things finally get real.  We want to get everybody there.

Quote from: Glitterfly on September 02, 2013, 11:06:50 PM
Yes, that baffles me. Is it your political agenda?

Not really. It's more just accepting a part of my history.

I didn't start transitioning until I was 41 years old. My oldest was 20 and my youngest was 18. I wasn't going to just ignore that I'd been their father, or that I'd been a husband. I'm not ashamed of my past, so why wouldn't I be open about it?

Not enough time has passed yet for your friend to realize the social aspect of the changes. This is the factor that always gets overlooked in the rush to get through the physical changes. I suggest that if anyone had objectively looked at me a month or 2 post-op I bet that a smart person could figure it out. Now add 10 years to that date of living in that social role and I can say that I have started to figure things out (meaning what it means to be a woman in the world). Suppose in Drew's case, in 5 years he is out hunting and fishing with the boys on the weekends, and sports a full beard, and hangs out drinking beer on the weekends and driving a pickup truck, I wonder if you're friend would still think the same thing? Likewise, in your case, after living a womans life for a long time, and having a few boyfriends and then getting married and settling down with some man as his wife, if your friend would think the same as you.

If you ask me, real passing is integration, and it doesn't happen while one is transitioning, it's what happens afterwards, when the music stops and one has to now learn how to live a new life in a new body for the rest of their lives. The time people spend on this board is people documenting or dealing with the physical and legal transition. The social aspect is not something you can read in a book, it takes years of direct experience and there is simply no substitute for those years. It's why we may actually know or have first hand exposure to other trans people who transitioned long ago and not know it. Eventually the people on this board themselves will be in that position in 10 or 15 years from now and looking back at it all  realizing that sex characteristics aside for a moment, there was still a great deal to be learned even after one considers themselves "done".

This process might start as a big bang (coming out to one's self) but slows down right after that.  One can grow some small boobs in a year, but it might take another 5 years to figure out what exactly that means

Quote from: Glitterfly on September 03, 2013, 11:13:58 AM
you're not their father now

But, I am still their father. They call me "Dad" and I'm okay with that. With regards to the "spectrum," I guess I'm queering the concept of gender and gender roles here by continuing to identify as their father.

To the "passing" story I related, I'd been involved with that church for about 23 years by the time I started transitioning. Should I have left and found a new church where my past would not have been known? I don't feel the need to be stealth, and that probably speaks to how fortunate I am to live where and when I do. I know stealth is a necessary means of survival for others. Hmm, I guess I can see how others might think of this as some kind of political agenda. To me, it's just being me.

Quote from: Glitterfly on September 03, 2013, 11:22:57 AM
Zumbagirl makes good points and I agree passing is mostly about integration the post was a little general though, we have people here from every part of the spectrum! There are also some people who have fully or mostly integrated into the society as a female even before HRT or SRS... I think it's those people who really pass 100% based on what Zumbagirl said, unless you have the perfect female face and body, no broad shoulders and no bushy eyebrows and no masculine characteristics of any kind beyond the level in a genetic female plus your voice is perfect... and you go hunting with the 'guys' or playing football and drinking beer... maybe you don't pass as well as you think after all integration is key, girls do boy things and boys do girl things but if you don't pass 100% to every single person in the world then anything can tip the scales...

I think time can overcome a great many things including things that some might think are physically unpassable traits. Someone who we might collectively think has a snowballs chance in he** of making it as a woman, might end up living a successful and invigorating life, if we simply allow enough time to pass so she can fully integrate. I've seen some football-ish looking women, heck I work with a few, but they are still women to me. If one of them told me she was trans I probably would be just as "what?? really??" as if I told them about myself. In my case I knew I was in the club when other women wanted to talk about periods and period cramps with me

I guess what I was trying to say in summation is irregardless of the physical changes one does, one can fit in given enough time. From what the original poster was saying:

some one who knows a person before the transition: passing takes a long time and need to demonstrate integration into new gender/physical sex. In other words they know the past, but to forget it, they need a long time and to see that one has integrated into the world successfully before they let go of the past.

someone who did't know me before transition: I can still integrate and lead a wholesome life irregardless of the amount of physical changes done. I'm one end of the extreme (3 trips to the OR) but I bet there are some with NO trips to the OR and they lead quality lives as well.

The first point is one reason why so many trans people who end up on the other side make new friends and disappear. This way they can take their time and figure out who they really are figure out where they are on that spectrum, if that makes any sense.

I think you are probably right that integrating fully into womanhood usually takes 10-15 years.  Most girls go through that process as children, trans women start a little later.