Quote from: Zumbagirl on September 03, 2013, 11:06:17 AM
Suppose in Drew's case, in 5 years he is out hunting and fishing with the boys on the weekends, and sports a full beard, and hangs out drinking beer on the weekends and driving a pickup truck, I wonder if you're friend would still think the same thing? Likewise, in your case, after living a womans life for a long time, and having a few boyfriends and then getting married and settling down with some man as his wife, if your friend would think the same as you.

Just wanted to mention... Drew has been fully transitioned and living full-time for eight years now. So I guess it varies from person to person, because Jenny has had plenty of time to see him in his new social role.

Needless to say, I"m not expecting anything with her.

(Just to clarify, though, it's not like she doesn't accept him as male. She does. But the issue was just that she thinks he doesn't fully pass... she thinks that it's obvious that he's trans.)

I'm not disagreeing with you at all, though. You make an EXCELLENT point, and you're right, we do all put a LOT of emphasis on the physical transition rather than the social transition. And this is actually one of the reasons why I don't go out more yet, is because I'm frankly a bit scared by all of the little feminizing social aspects of transition that I pretty much don't even have a clue about. Even in chat on the internet, where all of my virtual friends completely accept me as female, I still feel like I talk more like a guy. So I recognize that I still have a LOT to learn, and that it's not going to be a quick and easy process.

Quote from: Glitterfly on September 03, 2013, 12:02:50 PM
Most trans people anyway~ Unless you were lucky enough to have a childhood playing with the girls and were surrounded by girls and women most of your life and have spent the last 15-20 years of your life (before transitioning) seeing breasts and vaginas (as something not erotic) and talking about boys and whispering secrets to each other in the night and writing stories together and talking about feelings for hours on end and calling each other and talking on the phone til way past midnight and being as used to seeing period blood as school books... haha then the integration is kind of already in the pocket and it doesn't take any time at all~ but I think that might be pretty rare

Whenever you start , even if it is pre-transition so to speak, it just takes a while to get there.  The good news is I think you can get 70-90% there (or something lol) within the first few years with some work and with being social, and not a shut-in, as a woman.

Quote from: Glitterfly on September 03, 2013, 12:07:39 PM
That's what I kind of meant when I said people who knew you before are never truly going to forget about what you were... it's sad but that's the way it is, this case just proves my point~ Genuine tolerance is genuine pretence... pretence so strong the person believes it themself~ tolerance can't change the millions of years of evolution that brought about the human brain unfortunately

Maybe happiness comes from within and not from worrying about how other people see you.  If you can live a truly happy life despite what others think  of you, why does anything else matter?  Hiding your past works well for shallow relationships (acquaintances, coworkers, guy you meet at a club for some one time fun, whatever).  If you want a deeper relationship with someone, don't you think sharing things that you went through is important?  There's no way I could ever be stealth in a real meaningful relationship.  I just can't see hiding something like that to be healthy.  Maybe for you, if you don't have much of a male past to hide, it could be easier, but not everyone has quite that much privilege.  I can't not tell someone that I want to be close to that I was married and lost a child, or that I lost my virginity to a woman, or what my childhood was like, or how I went through most of my life with everyone thinking and often telling me that I am probably gay, these things are all parts of my life that made me who I am, and I just would feel like I'm being deceptive by hiding them or twisting them slightly to make it something that a woman might have experienced. All of these experiences lead to the truth about my birth sex. 

A lot of friends and family would mis-gender me and used the wrong name for years, and what I always took from it was that I was a delusional fool to think I could ever actually be seen as a woman. I would confront them about it and they would always say "Oh be patient, it takes a lot of practice to remember to say "she" and "her" every time. I think I was seriously damaged by the mis-gendering wrong name because now I tend to think they are lying when they say the right name and pronouns. It wasn't until 2 years of high-dose hrt and full-blown ffs that people would admit I did in fact look a little bit different, which was strange because I'd run into people who hadn't seen me since before my transition at parties and such and they didn't know who I am or know that I was a trans-person even though they knew of my transition. It took me years to un-learn what I was taught by my friends and family during my transition and I sometimes still have a hard time believing they are for real when they gender me correctly.

For years I had the distinct impression they were humoring me the way one might humor a child dressed up and pretending to be Batman.

Quote from: MariaMx on September 03, 2013, 01:31:11 PM
A lot of friends and family would mis-gender me and used the wrong name for years, and what I always took from it was that I was a delusional fool to think I could ever actually be seen as a woman. I would confront them about it and they would always say "Oh be patient, it takes a lot of practice to remember to say "she" and "her" every time. I think I was seriously damaged by the mis-gendering wrong name because now I tend to think they are lying when they say the right name and pronouns. It wasn't until 2 years of high-dose hrt and full-blown ffs that people would admit I did in fact look a little bit different, which was strange because I'd run into people who hadn't seen me since before my transition at parties and such and they didn't know who I am or know that I was a trans-person even though they knew of my transition. It took me years to un-learn what I was taught by my friends and family during my transition and I sometimes still have a hard time believing they are for real when they gender me correctly.

For years I had the distinct impression they were humoring me the way one might humor a child dressed up and pretending to be Batman.

Quote from: Alice Danielle on September 03, 2013, 12:44:53 PM
Maybe happiness comes from within and not from worrying about how other people see you.  If you can live a truly happy life despite what others think  of you, why does anything else matter?  Hiding your past works well for shallow relationships (acquaintances, coworkers, guy you meet at a club for some one time fun, whatever).  If you want a deeper relationship with someone, don't you think sharing things that you went through is important?  There's no way I could ever be stealth in a real meaningful relationship.  I just can't see hiding something like that to be healthy.  Maybe for you, if you don't have much of a male past to hide, it could be easier, but not everyone has quite that much privilege.  I can't not tell someone that I want to be close to that I was married and lost a child, or that I lost my virginity to a woman, or what my childhood was like, or how I went through most of my life with everyone thinking and often telling me that I am probably gay, these things are all parts of my life that made me who I am, and I just would feel like I'm being deceptive by hiding them or twisting them slightly to make it something that a woman might have experienced. All of these experiences lead to the truth about my birth sex.

This is why I always think that one's own self-acceptance is the most important thing of this all, above physical changes or even completely successful integration. There is always the realization that no matter what, one will always be a trans person. No amount of surgery or no amount of hormones will ever change that. From what I have seen in life, some people have no problems embracing their trans identity, and some people have to take time, and some unfortunate souls not at all. That's why to me, if someone wanted to call me a woman, a man, or a rubber chicken I don't care. Nothing will ever take away the reality of who I am as a person right here and right now.

Once I arrived at that point in my life where I was content I was actually okay with the thought that I am indeed a trans person and nothing will ever change that. That doesn't mean I want to walk down the street with it tattooed on my forehead and it's honestly nobodys business, but that's me.

I do agree with you Alice that disclosure is a good thing. I think those who feel they can hide their pasts are living in the same trap they started with. I always remembered some checklist I read years ago about what makes a relationship successful: The first one was communication but the second most important one is honesty. Without that a relationship is going to be doomed because the trust aspect works both ways (such as if I withold things from someone, doesn't that mean they have the same right to do the same to me?)

Quote from: Zumbagirl on September 03, 2013, 01:42:29 PM
This is why I always think that one's own self-acceptance is the most important thing of this all, above physical changes or even completely successful integration. There is always the realization that no matter what, one will always be a trans person. No amount of surgery or no amount of hormones will ever change that. From what I have seen in life, some people have no problems embracing their trans identity, and some people have to take time, and some unfortunate souls not at all. That's why to me, if someone wanted to call me a woman, a man, or a rubber chicken I don't care. Nothing will ever take away the reality of who I am as a person right here and right now.

Once I arrived at that point in my life where I was content I was actually okay with the thought that I am indeed a trans person and nothing will ever change that. That doesn't mean I want to walk down the street with it tattooed on my forehead and it's honestly nobodys business, but that's me.

I do agree with you Alice that disclosure is a good thing. I think those who feel they can hide their pasts are living in the same trap they started with. I always remembered some checklist I read years ago about what makes a relationship successful: The first one was communication but the second most important one is honesty. Without that a relationship is going to be doomed because the trust aspect works both ways (such as if I withold things from someone, doesn't that mean they have the same right to do the same to me?)

I don't have much problem with the fact that I am trans, but I do have a problem with not being treated as if I'm cis. I mean, why shouldn't I be?

About honesty in relationships, I agree, but more for pragmatic reasons. It could be tough keep a lid on and it might not even be necessary. I'm sort of seeing a guy right now and I haven't told him yet. I'm waiting to see if things get serious first. I'm not outing myself to someone who might not be around next month.

Quote from: Glitterfly on September 03, 2013, 04:48:50 PM
Lol no, not even a little bit~ a deeper relationship is based on who I am now, not who I was before~ I completely disagree with the theory that you need to understand someone's past in order to understand them now~ No you don't! That's lazy talk! If you want to understand them now, get to know them as they are now! You'll learn eventually! Past is for things that you have learned from and outgrown! Judging someone by their past just leads to misjudging and relationships with lot of baggage~ if someone wants to tell me their past, fine, but honestly I'm not that interested~ I'm interested in how they are now~ As for telling about my childhood, I had a pretty normal girl childhood so I could tell about it without it making anyone thing I was anything but a normal girl Maybe I'm priviledged that, maybe i'm sane for not insisting on dragging baggage into every relationship, maybe I'm just different than you and what works for you doesn't work for me and vice versa. In either case, I could never live as you do, pouring out every single thing about my past to someone just because i want a deep relationship. Hello, I want a deep SATISFYING relationship, not a deep psychoanalytical baggage filled relationship where talking about past becomes more important than living in the present~

Like I said, I don't believe a person is capable of knowing about your trans past and treating you as cis both consciously and subconsciously. Can you guarantee that they see you as a girl even in their dreams? the latter is important to me, I don't want half-experiences for the sake of some misguided notion of 'honesty'

" There is always the realization that no matter what, one will always be a trans person." completely disagree!

Recently I saw someone post a topic, "post srs and still feel like a trans" my first though was 'duh, is it any wonder, you're coming to a trans forum after your srs? issues letting go much?' and I was right, they themself said that they think they're somehow attached to their 'identity being trans'

I think some people are trans and some people are females/males, for whom transition is just a necessary evil.

I already am a female to myself, I have been for a very long time (since birth really, just was confused about my identity along the way for a while). I don't transition for myself (other than wanting a female body because I hate my male body), I mostly transition for other people, to make the external correspond to the internal. Trust me, there is no uncertainty about the internal, I need zero help with that It's the external I'm changing!

Well hope that all works out for you. I honestly think you have a lot to learn about life, but then again maybe you'll be lucky and your way will work out for you.  I won't try to sway your opinion anymore, it seems futile, but I really hope for your sake you don't have to learn a valuable lesson the hard way.

Quote from: MariaMx on September 03, 2013, 01:31:11 PM
A lot of friends and family would mis-gender me and used the wrong name for years, and what I always took from it was that I was a delusional fool to think I could ever actually be seen as a woman.

Same goes for showing your picture to a trans forum, with them knowing you are trans and saying "do I pass?". They have a preconceived notion already, which taints their opinion. I have shown a pictures- of natal women on trans forums and asked "Do I pass?" and they all said -no way- lol.

I'm at the point where I don't question it, I pass well enough where it never affects my life. I'm never incorrectly gendered, unless it is someone who knows my last. I've learned to excuse it, they don't do it on purpose. but for example, last week I was at the doc in the box for an ear infection and had to explain in detail "I am a woman but still have a penis, I am transgendered", he had no clue. I figure if a doctor doesn't clock me, I must pass fairly well This sort of thing has happened enough (several medical people have asked if I am pregnant or plan to become pregnant, when was your last period etc) that I realize strangers simple have no clue of my past.

Quote from: Glitterfly on September 03, 2013, 04:48:50 PM

Like I said, I don't believe a person is capable of knowing about your trans past and treating you as cis both consciously and subconsciously. Can you guarantee that they see you as a girl even in their dreams? the latter is important to me, I don't want half-experiences for the sake of some misguided notion of 'honesty'

All I can say is be very careful about hiding your past, like you describe, in relationships. Some people will become quite hostile if/when "discovery" happens, and it will happen. This is the cause of the majority of trans violence. Just a fact, not that it is acceptable.

And sorry, there is no such thing as "misguided honesty" in any relationship, unless it's just a hookup. I know I would feel insulted and hurt if someone I was in a relationship with kept their past from me, no matter what it was. That is part of intimacy, trusting the other person with your deepest secrets. This isn't some small thing to keep from someone, this is like a "Oh yeah I used to be married and have 3 children, did I not mention that?"

Quote from: Stephe on September 03, 2013, 05:22:46 PM
All I can say is be very careful about hiding your past, like you describe, in relationships. Some people will become quite hostile if/when "discovery" happens, and it will happen. This is the cause of the majority of trans violence. Just a fact, not that it is acceptable.

And sorry, there is no such thing as "misguided honesty" in any relationship, unless it's just a hookup. I know I would feel insulted and hurt if someone I was in a relationship with kept their past from me, no matter what it was. That is part of intimacy, trusting the other person with your deepest secrets. This isn't some small thing to keep from someone, this is like a "Oh yeah I used to be married and have 3 children, did I not mention that?"

If you are post-op, and don't want to divulge, why should you have to. If you had a cnacerous mole removed, would you tell that? Why is it so neccesary to divulge. And the fact is after the secret is out, people will treat you differently. My BF just recently started calling me she and her 100 percent of the time. I never asked, i just waited for him to see me that way. Plus, not all trans women have kids. Maybe a lot do, but many younger people do not and are atracted to men, not women, so they couldn't have kids.

It'd be nice if more younger people saw things the way I do.  No offense to the older people here, I just want to be able to relate with people my age and I don't think I really have much of a chance of doing that here.  I see posts by people around my age and I just don't get them and they don't seem to get me most of the time and I see posts by older people and its like I get them and they get me (or so I hope).  Very frustrating.

Quote from: Joanna Dark on September 03, 2013, 06:45:32 PM
If you are post-op, and don't want to divulge, why should you have to. If you had a cnacerous mole removed, would you tell that? Why is it so neccesary to divulge. And the fact is after the secret is out, people will treat you differently. My BF just recently started calling me she and her 100 percent of the time. I never asked, i just waited for him to see me that way. Plus, not all trans women have kids. Maybe a lot do, but many younger people do not and are atracted to men, not women, so they couldn't have kids.

Also, I really don't like the statement "so they couldn't have kids" but I'll just leave it at that.

Quote from: Zumbagirl on September 03, 2013, 01:42:29 PM
This is why I always think that one's own self-acceptance is the most important thing of this all, above physical changes or even completely successful integration. There is always the realization that no matter what, one will always be a trans person. No amount of surgery or no amount of hormones will ever change that. From what I have seen in life, some people have no problems embracing their trans identity, and some people have to take time, and some unfortunate souls not at all. That's why to me, if someone wanted to call me a woman, a man, or a rubber chicken I don't care. Nothing will ever take away the reality of who I am as a person right here and right now.

I've been saying that all along.. 100% self acceptance is needed, you need to be able to accept who you are in order to move on. Regardless of what I call myself, regardless of how I feel, I will always be trans and I'm OK with that.

QuoteOnce I arrived at that point in my life where I was content I was actually okay with the thought that I am indeed a trans person and nothing will ever change that. That doesn't mean I want to walk down the street with it tattooed on my forehead and it's honestly nobodys business, but that's me.

I don't advertise that fact I'm trans.. But I don't go to any great lengths to hide it.. And you are right, it's nobody's business unless I choose to make it so.

QuoteI do agree with you Alice that disclosure is a good thing. I think those who feel they can hide their pasts are living in the same trap they started with. I always remembered some checklist I read years ago about what makes a relationship successful: The first one was communication but the second most important one is honesty. Without that a relationship is going to be doomed because the trust aspect works both ways (such as if I withold things from someone, doesn't that mean they have the same right to do the same to me?)

Can't disagree with you or Alice there.. I will disclose my past to any partner who doesn't know, assuming it's a serious relationship, I have no issues doing so - it's simply the honest thing to do..

Quote from: Stephe on September 03, 2013, 05:11:29 PM
Same goes for showing your picture to a trans forum, with them knowing you are trans and saying "do I pass?". They have a preconceived notion already, which taints their opinion. I have shown a pictures- of natal women on trans forums and asked "Do I pass?" and they all said -no way- lol.

Yes, that is so true. You can never actually ask someone if you pass or not, because the mere act of asking will create a bias in how they see you.

Quote from: Stephe on September 03, 2013, 05:22:46 PM
All I can say is be very careful about hiding your past, like you describe, in relationships. Some people will become quite hostile if/when "discovery" happens, and it will happen. This is the cause of the majority of trans violence. Just a fact, not that it is acceptable.

And sorry, there is no such thing as "misguided honesty" in any relationship, unless it's just a hookup. I know I would feel insulted and hurt if someone I was in a relationship with kept their past from me, no matter what it was. That is part of intimacy, trusting the other person with your deepest secrets. This isn't some small thing to keep from someone, this is like a "Oh yeah I used to be married and have 3 children, did I not mention that?"

I think I'm willing to risk being bludgeoned to death if that is what it takes to experience life as a cis woman. I've had almost exclusively bad experiences with guys that know about my past. They always say and do stupid things and they always treat me as if I'm not really an actual woman. They always say highly inappropriate things and think that normal rules don't apply. I hate it so much I want to scream when it happens. They think I'm okay with being treated like dirt, because all I'm interested in is just sex, right?

The guy I'm with now doesn't know and I intend to keep it that way until things potentially get serious, and by serious I don't mean sex cause that is already happening.

The irony of the situation is that when people find out about me their reality of me will be way more distorted than it was before they found out. In a way I find that how people view me before they find out is more in line with reality than how they view me after they find out.

Sorry this is random by why am I seeing glitterfly quotes everywhere but not 1 post 

And on the note of this thread I ditch all people who get close to me until I actually full transition. I just dont trust people to ever see me right if they know me now.

^She posted a lot of replies that people were getting defensive about, and she was talking about how she didn't want to get into an argument, so she probably deleted all of her posts.

Quote from: Alice Danielle on September 03, 2013, 06:56:04 PM
Also, I really don't like the statement "so they couldn't have kids" but I'll just leave it at that.

Well, it's not for you to like or dislike, it just is. if a MAAB trans woman is attracted to men, that trans woman can't have kids unless it is thru artificial means (and pre hormones). Most young people neither have the money nor the desire to have kids by themselves. And if they are a young and trans and with a man, like me, guess what, if kids becomes a thing, it won't be the trans person's sperm being used, it will be the man's.

Quote from: Joanna Dark on September 04, 2013, 02:06:27 PM
Well, it's not for you to like or dislike, it just is. if a MAAB trans woman is attracted to men, that trans woman can't have kids unless it is thru artificial means (and pre hormones). Most young people neither have the money nor the desire to have kids by themselves. And if they are a young and trans and with a man, like me, guess what, if kids becomes a thing, it won't be the trans person's sperm being used, it will be the man's.

I guess just leaving it at that didn't work, you took it the wrong way.  I'm not unhappy about same sex partners not being able to have children in the traditional sense, I didn't like the statement because it is sounded like you were telling same sex partners that they don't have any options or that their options are invalid.

Quote from: Joanna Dark on September 03, 2013, 06:45:32 PM
If you are post-op, and don't want to divulge, why should you have to. If you had a cnacerous mole removed, would you tell that? Why is it so neccesary to divulge. And the fact is after the secret is out, people will treat you differently.

Maybe when you reread what you wrote above, you will see why disclosing having a mole removed and having had sex change surgery might be just a tad different.

The other key word here is "secret", do you -really- want to live the rest of your life in secret? Sorry, I have already done that too much already, years of hiding I was trans as I lived as a guy. Why would I want to continue doing that as a woman?