Quote from: thatboyfresh on September 03, 2013, 11:29:16 PM
It seems like you have some very deep routed ideals on what is and what makes a man. This is not a bad thing but I think your first step before you go for T would to see a gender therapist or counselor. T is not going to make you a man, it wont make you produce semen or be able to have kids or magically have a penis.  What your asking for is not at this time possible. Of course surgeries are only becoming better and more advanced but you have to learn that these things arn't going to just happen. Like I said even though you've been dealt a tough hand those are the only cards you can use. I would do like someone before me posted and get involved in local LGBTQ groups and "branch out" high school is not going to last for the rest of your life. You can't change people's minds. If they decide they want to view you as female there is nothing you can do to force them to think other wise even though it is frustrating . I don't have ANY support of my family. Matter of fact I live across the Country from them and hardly speak to them. I have a baby sister who I haven't even met yet because if it.


Again I cant see a gender therapist right know, Or go some lgbt thng, What's the point of living theirs no point a all!

Quote from: Brandon on September 03, 2013, 09:15:16 PM

And highschool matters to me may not to you but it does to me.

Hi Brandon,

High school is really important -- you're right. It's a long four years and it has such a deep influence on your personality and what decisions you will make with your life. While going through all of those changes, you spend your time stressing out about your friends and how people treat you, only to get hammered with distracting and annoying schoolwork on the side (and in your case, it seems like at-home trouble, too). You have no idea what will happen later in life. Your feelings don't exist in the future, they exist now. So I feel for you, really I do: you're in a tight spot, things are weighing you down, and it feels like there are no solutions.

To be perfectly honest, you're probably right about the majority of the things you're expressing. I think that's how most people are: they already have their answers, but they come to places like this and somehow end up talking about their problems. Everyone else's natural reaction is to try to solve your problem for you, telling you things that you already know or feel frustrated with. It's even more frustrating to deal with that -- but please try not to get too frustrated, because although the people responding to you don't really know you, they do care about you and mean well.

I wish I had more comforting words for you. I genuinely think you seem to understand what you're going through really well. I get the feeling that you know not ALL girls would reject a guy without dangly bits even if it isn't their preference, but also know that it makes it much more difficult for you to be in that situation and find someone you like; especially so as a teenager, when people haven't had much time to mature their sexuality yet and get their notions out of their system. I also agree with others, things can get better as you get older, but there is a lot of luck involved as well as a whole lot of uncertainty, and the waiting period for happiness to bloom really, really sucks.

Oh, and for what it's worth, I'm heterosexual and really care about my boyfriend having a penis, but I would still date an awesome pre-op trans man. My best friend, who is a cis girl and very intelligent as well as pretty, would also date a pre-op trans man if she really liked him. And why would you date anyone if they weren't awesome or if you didn't really like them? Girls you can date do exist, even if they are a pain to find and you might not meet them for a while -- and for that much, I truly hope fortune smiles upon you sooner than later.

P.S. I really hope you (and any others!) don't mind one of the girls creeping over here and posting. I remembered how alone/sad/bitter I felt during a teenager, too, with a lot of similar feelings, and couldn't help but want to post and hopefully help you feel a little better.

Quote from: Sybil on September 03, 2013, 11:34:48 PM
Hi Brandon,

High school is really important -- you're right. It's a long four years and it has such a deep influence on your personality and what decisions you will make with your life. While going through all of those changes, you spend your time stressing out about your friends and how people treat you, only to get hammered with distracting and annoying schoolwork on the side (and in your case, it seems like at-home trouble, too). You have no idea what will happen later in life. Your feelings don't exist in the future, they exist now. So I feel for you, really I do: you're in a tight spot, things are weighing you down, and it feels like there are no solutions.

To be perfectly honest, you're probably right about the majority of the things you're expressing. I think that's how most people are: they already have their answers, but they come to places like this and somehow end up talking about their problems. Everyone else's natural reaction is to try to solve your problem for you, telling you things that you already know or feel frustrated with. It's even more frustrating to deal with that -- but please try not to get too frustrated, because although the people responding to you don't really know you, they do care about you and mean well.

I wish I had more comforting words for you. I genuinely think you seem to understand what you're going through really well. I get the feeling that you know not ALL girls would reject a guy without dangly bits even if it isn't their preference, but also know that it makes it much more difficult for you to be in that situation and find someone you like; especially so as a teenager, when people haven't had much time to mature their sexuality yet and get their notions out of their system. I also agree with others, things can get better as you get older, but there is a lot of luck involved as well as a whole lot of uncertainty, and the waiting period for happiness to bloom really, really sucks.

Oh, and for what it's worth, I'm heterosexual and really care about my boyfriend having a penis, but I would still date an awesome pre-op trans man. My best friend, who is a cis girl and very intelligent as well as pretty, would also date a pre-op trans man if she really liked him. And why would you date anyone if they weren't awesome or if you didn't really like them? Girls you can date do exist, even if they are a pain to find and you might not meet them for a while -- and for that much, I truly hope fortune smiles upon you sooner than later.

P.S. I really hope you (and any others!) don't mind one of the girls creeping over here and posting. I remembered how alone/sad/bitter I felt during a teenager, too, with a lot of similar feelings, and couldn't help but want to post and hopefully help you feel a little better.

Yea that'strue

Brandon, you got me wrong - what i was saying was that AFTER you transition (meaning after all your surgeries - top and bottom, hormones, etc.) you can be seen as a cis-male in the society and if all of your documents say you are a male then nobody will doubt it. If you are into girls, you can get yourself a cis-female. It's your choice whether or not you want to tell her you are trans. If you want to keep this knowledge to yourself you can do it and she will never know (if both your surgeries are good enough, of course).

But me, and other FTM guys who are gay, we will never be seen as "normal" by the society because we are gay. In most countries, being gay means getting discriminated from time to time, being seen as someone who is "wrong", losing friends and being called all kinds of disgusting names. Probably in the place you live in it's different. But in my country this is the way things are.

So that's what i was trying to say. Even after the surgery, although i am sure i will be happy with myself and finally really feel myself, i know i won't be happy with being gay. I have nothing against gays, it's just that it's so hard to live when you are gay and people hate you just because you are this way.

This is like transferring from one minority to another minority and never belonging to the majority. And this is always hard being a minority, especially in this situation.

Quote from: JaredLeBlanc on September 04, 2013, 09:04:16 AM
Brandon, you got me wrong - what i was saying was that AFTER you transition (meaning after all your surgeries - top and bottom, hormones, etc.) you can be seen as a cis-male in the society and if all of your documents say you are a male then nobody will doubt it. If you are into girls, you can get yourself a cis-female. It's your choice whether or not you want to tell her you are trans. If you want to keep this knowledge to yourself you can do it and she will never know (if both your surgeries are good enough, of course).

But me, and other FTM guys who are gay, we will never be seen as "normal" by the society because we are gay. In most countries, being gay means getting discriminated from time to time, being seen as someone who is "wrong", losing friends and being called all kinds of disgusting names. Probably in the place you live in it's different. But in my country this is the way things are.

So that's what i was trying to say. Even after the surgery, although i am sure i will be happy with myself and finally really feel myself, i know i won't be happy with being gay. I have nothing against gays, it's just that it's so hard to live when you are gay and people hate you just because you are this way.

This is like transferring from one minority to another minority and never belonging to the majority. And this is always hard being a minority, especially in this situation.

Yea it might be harder to be gay and ftm, But Even after hormones and surgery, I still will have to disclose it, But your gay so you wouldnt know how some females talk about ftms, Its really not that easy dude, And surgery is not that good enough to were I wouldnt have to say anything to my gf/wife, You cant speak on something or make that generalization because people in general are getting more cruel again most women have said their strictly dickly even older women, Its really not what it seems and is just as hard as you

Quote from: Brandon on September 04, 2013, 02:37:42 PM

Yea it might be harder to be gay and ftm, But Even after hormones and surgery, I still will have to disclose it, But your gay so you wouldnt know how some females talk about ftms, Its really not that easy dude, And surgery is not that good enough to were I wouldnt have to say anything to my gf/wife, You cant speak on something or make that generalization because people in general are getting more cruel again most women have said their strictly dickly even older women, Its really not what it seems and is just as hard as you

Well, i have heard about some surgeries that were totally perfect and those guys have never said anything to their wives and their wives have never thought something was wrong with those guys... Anyway, i do understand that this is a very small percentage of all FTMs... And most of the guys aren't that lucky.

I am not gonna argue with you what's easier and what's harder. It seems we are facing a lot of difficulties and it doesn't even matter if you are into girls or into guys. The thing is, we have to be ourselves first. And when we are in the right body, we can start dating. Girls or guys.

Quote from: Brandon on September 03, 2013, 09:08:29 PM

Well you probaly have support, And Im not insulting bottom surgery for ftms just because I think they can do better, You try getting negative stuff constantly thrown at you eventually you start to believe negative

I have no support whatsoever - not from friends or family. I have to imagine that what I feel is nothing compared to what it is like to be in HS with no support. When I mentioned support, I meant that you could find it here on the forum if nothing else, especially if you can't get it at home.

Quote from: Brandon on September 03, 2013, 09:15:16 PM

And highschool matters to me may not to you but it does to me.

I said high school does not matter to give you perspective. It feels like your entire world now, but you have to see the bigger picture. Get it over with and get out. My message is just that it gets better, that's all.

Quote from: spacerace on September 04, 2013, 03:10:44 PM
I said high school does not matter to give you perspective. It feels like your entire world now, but you have to see the bigger picture. Get it over with and get out. My message is just that it gets better, that's all.

True words. It feels like forever when you're there, but shortly after you're out, you'll look back and think "how trivial that all was".

Quote from: JaredLeBlanc on September 04, 2013, 02:48:20 PM
Well, i have heard about some surgeries that were totally perfect and those guys have never said anything to their wives and their wives have never thought something was wrong with those guys... Anyway, i do understand that this is a very small percentage of all FTMs... And most of the guys aren't that lucky.

I am not gonna argue with you what's easier and what's harder. It seems we are facing a lot of difficulties and it doesn't even matter if you are into girls or into guys. The thing is, we have to be ourselves first. And when we are in the right body, we can start dating. Girls or guys.

Thats pretty hard to believe, Considering surgerys do not look that realistic not to be rude thats why Im gonna wait,  And thats pretty dumb not to tell you wife your trans

Quote from: dalebert on September 04, 2013, 03:20:07 PM
True words. It feels like forever when you're there, but shortly after you're out, you'll look back and think "how trivial that all was".

No it don't feel like forever, Its jus constanly being dysphoric, Theirs no way not to be

Quote from: spacerace on September 04, 2013, 03:10:44 PM
I have no support whatsoever - not from friends or family. I have to imagine that what I feel is nothing compared to what it is like to be in HS with no support. When I mentioned support, I meant that you could find it here on the forum if nothing else, especially if you can't get it at home.

I said high school does not matter to give you perspective. It feels like your entire world now, but you have to see the bigger picture. Get it over with and get out. My message is just that it gets better, that's all.

Ok........

Quote from: thatboyfresh on September 03, 2013, 04:01:04 PM
But I mean if that is all a woman cares about then is she really worth having?

This seems like a gross simplification to me. I suppose I'm like some of those women. I do not plan to get involved with a trans man; I like typical homegrown penises with all the bells and whistles. That doesn't mean that it's all I care about, and it doesn't mean that I'm not worth a relationship.

It might look like Brandon is just shooting down every suggestion anyone makes--it wouldn't be the first time someone has done that here--but he obviously has very strong dysphoria and is frustrated as hell. Give him time. I don't think a lot of guys in our position can just decide in fifteen minutes to look on the bright side and do the best they can with what they have now and look forward to the best they can get--which is not good enough for everyone. If they could think that way, they wouldn't have much dysphoria--or maybe any at all--would they? 

Right now, maybe he should do more research about bottom surgery options, but he appears to be in Major Dysphoria Land, he already knows that the surgical options don't get him what he wants, and he knows that he's a long way from having such surgeries. This is not a nice place to be in, as I well know. He also knows that some cis guys don't have typical equipment or fertility either, and that does not help.

It doesn't help me, either. I know that no surgery on earth is going to get me what I want, and I haven't yet made my peace with that--and I've been thinking about bottom surgery for almost twenty years. I suppose one point in my favor is that I don't try to argue with people about the subject because I know that it's pretty pointless. But it's maddening when I express my feelings about how inadequate I think my options are, and then someone comes along and tells me that it's really not so bad, especially when their priorities and mine differ considerably.

We're probably all better off trying to think more positively, but I don't think you'll have much success in trying to force someone to be that way.

Quote from: Arch on September 05, 2013, 01:11:02 AM
It might look like Brandon is just shooting down every suggestion anyone makes--it wouldn't be the first time someone has done that here--but he obviously has very strong dysphoria and is frustrated as hell. Give him time. I don't think a lot of guys in our position can just decide in fifteen minutes to look on the bright side and do the best they can with what they have now and look forward to the best they can get--which is not good enough for everyone. If they could think that way, they wouldn't have much dysphoria--or maybe any at all--would they? 

Right now, maybe he should do more research about bottom surgery options, but he appears to be in Major Dysphoria Land, he already knows that the surgical options don't get him what he wants, and he knows that he's a long way from having such surgeries. This is not a nice place to be in, as I well know. He also knows that some cis guys don't have typical equipment or fertility either, and that does not help.

It doesn't help me, either. I know that no surgery on earth is going to get me what I want, and I haven't yet made my peace with that--and I've been thinking about bottom surgery for almost twenty years. I suppose one point in my favor is that I don't try to argue with people about the subject because I know that it's pretty pointless. But it's maddening when I express my feelings about how inadequate I think my options are, and then someone comes along and tells me that it's really not so bad, especially when their priorities and mine differ considerably.

We're probably all better off trying to think more positively, but I don't think you'll have much success in trying to force someone to be that way.

Thank You for explaining it

Considering that the vast majority of homo and hetero people are to some extent partly bisexual, as studies have revealed, and that females (and not-so-females) are overwhelmingly encouraged to be with men, I think it's not surprising at all that trans guys would be above the statistics in terms of homosexuality. Your standard man who is truly bisexual has a high chance of prioritizing women for a relationship (perhaps to the point of completely excluding men) because he doesn't want to be seen as gay.

The same, although maybe not as strong because of how lesbians are generally accepted better than gays, can happen with women. If men and women attract you equally, but people around you will have a bad attitude towards you if you date a woman, then you're going to be strongly biased to see men.

Since sexuality is partly something that is learned (partly!), having always dated guys will make your would-be bisexual trans guy gay in fact, and maybe even he'd believe he's only into men, because he's always seen only men, so much that women are completely out of his mind.

Now spread that phenomenon not just to perfectly bi guys but on all partly bi guys (that is, the vast majority of guys) whose dysphoria didn't keep them from dating altogether and you're going to have pretty changed numbers compared to the normal average.

You can also add to that dysphoria problems. When you've been expected to be a woman for so long, when everything about being a woman literally disgusts you because of how hard it was thrown in your face... it wouldn't be so surprising if you felt like you're not a woman so much that you want nothing to do with them, and that whatever would have perhaps attracted you in women if you'd had better experiences is just, to you, a sad reminder of what you didn't want on you.

I know for a fact that it took me a while to get rid of my disgust for men and manly things that decreased my respect for men. Heck, if I hadn't recently fallen in love with and gotten to understand a man, I'm pretty sure I'd still have significant remnants of it. I think there'll always be a little something to hurt an emotional scar somewhere, but thanksfully, now I can love him (and, I figure, others) for what he is.

I'm FtM and straight.
I love women in any package they come in.

Quote from: broken. on September 08, 2013, 11:05:17 AM
Just clarifying but.... didn't the study I think you're thinking of claim that the majority of cis women will become aroused at sexual scenes with both genders regardless of reported preference, but that the majority of cis men were, as they reported, not aroused by sexual scenes with just cis men?

Nope, it's a relatively old study, pretty famous, since I've seen it in - I think - my basic psychology class. Also, I think a movie was made out of it. It's a university teacher who did surveys among his students and discovered that nearly everyone was not exclusively into one gender. Then if I remember well the rather casual study was confirmed through more serious and more in-depth studies. Anyway my memory is fuzzy but I think the fact was vastly confirmed and accepted. Something like that. Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, but I've always been in the assumption that partial bisexuality was rather the norm than the exception.

Quote from: broken. on September 08, 2013, 11:05:17 AM
Really??? Maybe if that doesn't include like, being taken seriously at all..... A lot of elements *cough* of society still think they own female sexuality.

Uhm, dunno, it's just from what I've seen. People tend to find lesbians kissing cute, and gays kissing yucky, if it's going to be only one of them. And visibly gay men tend to not be taken seriously at all by other men unless they're already very established, while lesbian women, well, from what I've seen, are unaffected.

In celebrities, in my province, it was a very long time, years after the adoption of same-sex marriage until a celebrity showed up at a gala with her girlfriend, even though her homosexuality was known (or was it just strongly suspected?), and before she'd come with a male friend. Still fuzzy, but I think it took a couple of women before a man did it.

And uhm, I'm not in a very homophobic place, but I do hear stuff like "->-bleeped-<-!" (once it was directed at me, ahem) occasionally, and casual comments that are slightly homophobic against gays. But lesbians? Nope, honestly, I have never ever heard bad comments. Maybe once a guy said it was a waste, because he found her sexy. Not even sure.

Quote from: A on September 08, 2013, 04:12:04 PM
Nope, it's a relatively old study, pretty famous, since I've seen it in - I think - my basic psychology class. Also, I think a movie was made out of it. It's a university teacher who did surveys among his students and discovered that nearly everyone was not exclusively into one gender. Then if I remember well the rather casual study was confirmed through more serious and more in-depth studies. Anyway my memory is fuzzy but I think the fact was vastly confirmed and accepted. Something like that. Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, but I've always been in the assumption that partial bisexuality was rather the norm than the exception.
Uhm, dunno, it's just from what I've seen. People tend to find lesbians kissing cute, and gays kissing yucky, if it's going to be only one of them. And visibly gay men tend to not be taken seriously at all by other men unless they're already very established, while lesbian women, well, from what I've seen, are unaffected.

In celebrities, in my province, it was a very long time, years after the adoption of same-sex marriage until a celebrity showed up at a gala with her girlfriend, even though her homosexuality was known (or was it just strongly suspected?), and before she'd come with a male friend. Still fuzzy, but I think it took a couple of women before a man did it.

And uhm, I'm not in a very homophobic place, but I do hear stuff like "->-bleeped-<-!" (once it was directed at me, ahem) occasionally, and casual comments that are slightly homophobic against gays. But lesbians? Nope, honestly, I have never ever heard bad comments. Maybe once a guy said it was a waste, because he found her sexy. Not even sure.

I have to disagree, I know what I like and its definately women, That study was pretty stupid just saying, I love everything about a women especially the curves, And other things without being to explicit

For one, it's most people, not everyone, that I'm saying is partly bisexual. Second, many people do not know and might never do, because conditions will never be so that they meet, say, a man, who will make them fall with their slight attraction to men.

Quote from: A on September 08, 2013, 04:45:27 PM
For one, it's most people, not everyone, that I'm saying is partly bisexual. Second, many people do not know and might never do, because conditions will never be so that they meet, say, a man, who will make them fall with their slight attraction to men.

Again,A fully straight perspn wil not fall in love with the same sex, I believe more women get curious but men tend not to, Ive loved women since 5 yrs old, And you just basically said everyone is bisexual because of that study