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An Interesting Lesson About Passing...

Started by Carrie Liz, September 01, 2013, 04:34:51 AM

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Stephe

Quote from: Kelly the Post-Trans-Rebel on September 03, 2013, 06:57:59 PM
I've been saying that all along.. 100% self acceptance is needed, you need to be able to accept who you are in order to move on. Regardless of what I call myself, regardless of how I feel, I will always be trans and I'm OK with that.

I don't advertise that fact I'm trans.. But I don't go to any great lengths to hide it.. And you are right, it's nobody's business unless I choose to make it so.

Can't disagree with you or Alice there.. I will disclose my past to any partner who doesn't know, assuming it's a serious relationship, I have no issues doing so - it's simply the honest thing to do..

I wholeheartedly agree with both you and Alice here. I don't advertize being trans either but I have finally accepted I am trans and no amount of surgery etc will change that. I do find that someone "being trans" as more mainstream and more people than ever know someone who is trans and, like myself, are basically just another woman they know. Most people I interact with have no clue I wasn't born a woman but I would never hide this or lie about my past if someone asked or I felt it was something they should know.
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BunnyBee

I feel like people are bringing their personal agendas into this thread, which are at best tangentially related to the topic, and trying to stir things up for no reason.
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Joanna Dark

Well after I complete surgery I will no longer consider myself trans. I will be a woman. Not "basically" a woman. Not like a woman. A woman. And I have never hid the fact that i am gender variant nor pretended to be a manly man. I'm not criticizing those that have as I totally understand but your experience may not be my experience.

And don't twist my words I meant you wouldn't tell people about a part of your history that ceases to matter so why should being trans be different. There is an element in shame in feeling you have to disclose. There is. That's what I meant by that analogy. But really I'm done with this argumentative thread.
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Carrie Liz

Just saying...

This was supposed to be a positive thread about passing where I realized that most people who I'd never met who were looking at me probably had no idea that I was trans, and would probably accept me as female because that was the only me that they've ever known, wheras previously I was letting the opinions of friends constantly get to me because they always told me that I wasn't there yet and that they could still tell.

I don't know where all of this arguing about stealth came from...
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Constance

Quote from: Carrie Liz on September 04, 2013, 03:20:31 PM
Just saying...

This was supposed to be a positive thread about passing where I realized that most people who I'd never met who were looking at me probably had no idea that I was trans, and would probably accept me as female because that was the only me that they've ever known, wheras previously I was letting the opinions of friends constantly get to me because they always told me that I wasn't there yet and that they could still tell.

I don't know where all of this arguing about stealth came from...
It was actually the intent of my first post in this thread to say pretty much the same thing. There was at least that one instance in which a person I was interacting with face-to-face had no idea I was trans until I mentioned it.

Nicolette

Quote from: Stephe on September 04, 2013, 02:31:12 PM
Maybe when you reread what you wrote above, you will see why disclosing having a mole removed and having had sex change surgery might be just a tad different.

The other key word here is "secret", do you -really- want to live the rest of your life in secret? Sorry, I have already done that too much already, years of hiding I was trans as I lived as a guy. Why would I want to continue doing that as a woman?

No one is prescribing any one way of life here. No one is saying one is better or worse. Whatever one chooses is very personal and that does not imply that they expect others to do the same. No one is being judgemental. No one is imposing. Every time this comes up, it's the same thread repeated over again. Do whatever makes you happy.
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anjaq

I think that it is really rather normal that people who know you have a harder time "getting it" than people who dont know you at all. Meaning that you can "pass" to strangers but not to people you know already in the past - for them it is more a matter of changing their own view about you. And I think most of us know how hard this is even for ourselves. I believe that few of us here did not have the experience of looking into the mirror and seeing a face that reminds oneself about a person of the "old" gender - ones own brother or something - basically this is "not passing" to oneself. I guess with FFS and such, this can actually be thwarted, but without that, facial features can always remind one of the past - even more than what other people would notice. This is the same with friends - they dont look neutrally at you, just as yourself dont do it - instead they look at the face and recognize a person they know and then it does not matter if that face changed in some ways, but the identity assigned to that person comes from the memory, while strangers will take a more neutral look at your new self and identify it with your new appearance and your person and gender as it is and thus have less issues with that cumbersome memory of the "old you".
I had the fun once and went to a school reunion. Didnt see the people for about 10 years and was about 2 years into transition, HRT and all. A few people identified me and they had some trouble getting the name right and all that after I told them. Others just didnt get it, they kept saying that I seem familar but they cannot remember really who I am - until they were told by someone who I was, they did not really have an issue withnames and gendering, but afterwards as memory set in, they suddenly had. Its all about that memory.

Zumba, I think your path is a very good and admirable one, but I also think that it is easier said than done. Being post-op for over a decade myself now, I think in part this is right - one learns a lot in these years, but at least I myself have still much more to learn as I am not the most sociable person that gets into friends circles easily. What I think is rather hard is to get to that acceptance for myself. To have the confidence that everyone will see you as a woman, that you are free to do whatever you want and still feel and be perceived as a woman, that is sort of the high goal and I for myself still catch me thinking that some action, behaviour or look on my side is too male or that if I do this or that I will be perceived as male. This leads me to being insecure. I tried this acceptance of "I am a woman but also a transperson" and to not worry about some people seeing that, but in the end it came out as a game of pretense. I lied to myself about not caring about this. In fact everytime I did something I felt was too "male" and especially every time I feel like I am not "passing", I feel really bad, try to push away that thought, pretend I do not care, but inside I feel scared and stiffen up (which de facto increases the danger of "not passing"). Normally I tend to think that people will either see me as just a woman or "read" me in that I am a woman with a trans past. But very occasionally I actually am gendered the wrong way and this really sucks then. Had it happen last month when I was in a group doing a thing where one tells a story about oneself and the other refelcts on that story. I told my story and the other guy retold my story but kept saying that "he" did this and "the man" did that. I told him later that this confused me and he apologized, but it left me thinking for days and actually was part of what led me to taking another look at voice lessons and then finally to join this forum because I really did not expect to "fail" like that after 15 years of living in my true gender.
I dont know - true acceptance to be trans and true acceptance that there will be some people who will know even if it was not told to them (and yes, i would tell a person I want to seriously have a long term relationship with) - that is harder done than said. I suspect that in part one has to find a way to accept onself as the gender one truely is - a sentence that already shows how it should be - "the gender one truely is" - in my case this would mean to really honestly and down to the soft inner soul of myself accept and know that I am female and not have those nagging doubts about his or that trait being male or worry about giving off "male vibes" as a reason for being "read" and all that crap. The confidence from being really in ones female self center I can imagine would be a great basis for not worrying too much about passing anymore. On the other hand not to worry about passing anymore because it always works would greatly contribute to reaching that calmness and security about ones identity, which I think is why so many people go for FFS and all that stuff, so that they dont ever have to worry about this again and can feel safe and secure in opening up their own inner identity and not have it harmed by stupid occurences.

I hope I make sense - please tell me if I am talking nonsense to you, english is not my native language and I am sometimes not sure when I start rambling or philosophizing if it still makes sense to others ;)

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Danielle Emmalee

anjaq, I'm impressed by your handle on English, it's much better than probably half of the people whose first language is English.  Your post made a lot of sense and I'd have to agree with everything that you've said in it/
Discord, I'm howlin' at the moon
And sleepin' in the middle of a summer afternoon
Discord, whatever did we do
To make you take our world away?

Discord, are we your prey alone,
Or are we just a stepping stone for taking back the throne?
Discord, we won't take it anymore
So take your tyranny away!
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anjaq

Quote from: Alice Danielle on September 04, 2013, 04:42:55 PM
anjaq, I'm impressed by your handle on English, it's much better than probably half of the people whose first language is English.
I am not sure if I should feel good because I got a positive review of my english language skills or if I should feel worried because 50% of the people whose native language is english are worse. LOL

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MariaMx

I think what you are saying makes perfect sense anjaq. I know what you mean about that insecure and scared feeling on the inside. I had that too, but over the past year I've managed to lose it. At the same time I don't really see my former self in the mirror anymore. All of a sudden I feel complete.

There was a wonderful former member of this forum that wrote something that really stuck with me when I read it last year. I'm not sure where the post is but I have a copy of it since I thought it was so good:

"As time progresses you will have more and more history to draw from as a woman.  Some women focus on all the experiences they will never have, like crapping their pink diapers or having their first period.  They focus on what they don't have and make the present a never-ending deficit or a never ending non-experience.  My suggestion is to do something every day that scares you.  Though your life as a woman may appear as an invisible bridge I would encourage you to walk on it, jump on it, dance on it, leap on it...  because by doing that you will make your bridge stronger and more visible.  By cautiously treading very carefully on it or considering it from a distance it will remain a fantasy.  Womanhood will continue to be a fantasy.  Drop bombs on it.  Smash it with hammers and it will become amazing and strong and you will come to confidently tread upon it."

Well, I followed her advise and I went out there and I pummeled it! I've lived more the past 12 months than I did the previous 10 years put together. I won't necessarily advocate doing just as I did, but I took chances, did scary and sometimes stupid things. Things I probably won't do again. I really stuck my neck out there (once I engaged in intercourse that turned to rape and another time I almost choked to death on my friends bathroom floor when I got vomit down the windpipe which made it decide to slam shut for about 30-40 seconds).

I didn't have to push it as far as I did (please don't follow my example) but pushing my limit was what changed the view I have of myself. I pushed my "womanhood" to the breaking point and it held. Since my shift in self-perception I can do pretty much what ever the hell I want to. I'm not scared of anything anymore and my confidence is 100x what it was last year. My attitude has improved greatly and my voice is simply so much better than it was before. Everything about me is better now.

I really love that bridge analogy and I feel inspired to live and enjoy my life more whenever I read it, which I do every now and then :)
"Of course!"
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anjaq

Maria - that sounds like a good advice but I am not sure I get it really. What do you mean by "pushing your womanhood to the breaking point" - it sounds a bit like you just had a really exciting time with vomiting and all that, but I am not sure in what way this is pushing the womanhood instead of basically just life itself. Now for me, I have lived about 40% of my life up to now as a woman (geez - I just typed that in the calculator and it really is 40%, didnt realize that before). Transitioned with 23, that was 15 years ago. I must say that most of my active memories are from that time, hardly anything before is really that present except some funny events and some bad ones. So if it comes to basically living a life with lots of experiences after transition, I think I can say I did that. Most of the more extreme events does not really relate to being a woman though (except maybe that time we travelled to Iran and it was all about muslim clothing laws and such). I think one problem is that during these 15 years there was always that thought of "actually being trans" lurking and tainting a bit the experiences and some memories just persist, like that look in the mirror even now can give me a bad feeling. Usually of course this is when I am down, tired or sick anyways, then I tend to see myself more like the "old self". Probably that is because back then I felt sick, tired and locked in and so that feeling brings up the remembrance of these times. Just a theory.
So I feel like I definitely need to get to that point of letting this go. Its about time after 15 years! I am sick of this pulling me down from time to time and nagging at me. It has to end. I dont really know what to do. So if you can explain to me the last post a bit more in detail, I'd appreciate it. Meanwhile I figured that I just have in many ways become too neglecting towards myself - I just posted something in the post op section on part of that and I am getting my ass off the ground now to finally go to a stupid electrologist for those remaining hairs in the face that laser could not get rid of in the last years (its not much but its a reminder that is annoying) and I need to get back my voice that I once had and somehow lost because I thought "this problem is dealt with, now to something completely different" - and without having an eye on it, it seems to have reverted without me noticing. So basically I have to bring some things in order that I should have done years ago - trans-wise.

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MariaMx

Well, the short story is that I went out and put myself in more and more compromising situation, or rather situation in which I could be found out if you know what I mean. I used to be so afraid of everything and I kept making excuses not to do things anymore. Basically I was content with sitting at home slowly descending into the grave. Well, for some reason I woke up one day and decided life wasn't over just yet, and I went out and did many of the things I had pictured myself doing after transition that I never got around to do.

This might seem silly or stupid to some, but one of the main things I did was to go out and have flings and ONS with men who don't know about my trans status. I wanted to see just how far I could take it. My "abilities" as a woman had thus far pretty much been intellectual exercise. It was really all theory. I had a suspicion I passed well, but I didn't know for sure, and I was afraid of discovering that I was delusional to think I passed well. So, I put myself to the test to see what I would learn about myself, and what I discovered was that I really am a woman in all the ways that matter to me. I can live my life the way I pictures it should have been, and best of all, I don't really feel the trans baggage weighing me down anymore. I've broken through now and I feel great!!! :)

I'm sure some might find my method of finding out who I really am to be preposterous, maybe even offensive to some, but I did it and I'm so so glad I did. Life was dreary. Now it's exciting and fresh and just the way I want it, so I don't really care what anyone might think :)

Oh yeah, the weight loss made a huge difference too, so definitely do that. I've been kicking myself for not doing it sooner  >:(
"Of course!"
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anjaq

Haha, yes definitely thats the plan to loose these kilos. Didnt get my ass off the ground in that respect for some years now. It keeps me from doing other stuff as well I think.

Ok, so I start to get what you mean - you are basically trying to get into situations that show more clearly if you "pass" or not and that may even be dangerous. I know in most situations I get into, if someone will "read" my past, they will be polite Germans and not say anything. I had people knowing about this for years and I never knew that they knew - awww I was dissapointed when I found out... So I am not sure about how I would go about getting such experiences. I dont find your way "offensive" but I dont think it is my way. I am not a very sexual person, never was and did not expect this to change so much with surgery, so going for ONS and such is not really something I desire or wished for... not even because I would be afraid to be "read" but just picking up some guy or girl and go to bed with him or her - phew - no, not really. I even had trouble in relationships I had because I was not sexually active enough. Post op that is - didnt have any experiences pre-op (*blush* - did I just admit that I was a virgin when I was on that OP table?). Oh and as can be seen from the sentence above, I am not even sure if I am lesbian or bisexual ;) - my therapist basically (thats interesting) told me more or less to do what you did - go out and pick up guys and girls and see how it goes, have sex, have short relationships, see if I like men or women more and she thought it would help me with my depression. I never did that, it just - does not feel right - because there is not really a desire burning in me to do this a lot...
So I am not sure then what other situations or experiences could have a similar effect but do not involve sex - did the person you quoted this from have some other suggestions or did she basically the same thing as you did? Can you maybe make this a bit more clear still by giving other examples or is this basically it - that having an open and active sex life is the cure (oh gee - I am not sure that I could ever get there then. Because I am not so much into it and even if I would be then it definitely would mean I have to loose a lot of weight and actually go out in loud dance clubs and bars... meh, I feel old now that I dont do this anymore)

But breaking through, that definitely sounds awesome :)

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MariaMx

Yes, that was something I was wondering about, if people were just polite or not (I live in Norway and it's much the same way here). Not being able to tell sort of left me in limbo. I wanted to find out if I was there yet or not. If it was all in my imagination or not, so I decided to put it to the test the only way I could think of. My thinking was that if I put myself in a situation in which I would be in harms way should my trans-status be discovered, then I would know for sure, and to be double sure I did it repeatedly just in case they were humoring me. Nothing happened and judging from the context of the situation and the things they said (worries about birth control and such) I am almost 99.9% sure there is no way they knew anything. I wanted to see if I really had achieved the privilege that I initially set out to gain.

As I've already said, I don't advocate following my example. Not at all. I'm a very resourceful person, I always land on my feet and I'm no stranger to sticky situation. I know some of the things I did were stupid and dangerous, like hanging out with an illegal alien drug dealer from a war stricken Islamic country in Africa, a guy who has a huge crush on me to boot (I did not have sex with him though).

The former member that wrote the piece that inspired me to take more chances didn't say specifically what to do. I just took my own interpretation of the text and jumped in at the deep end. Basically she just said to not let your past history hamper you today. Defy your history and the imaginary limitations that we seem to impose on ourselves. I was holding back because I somehow felt I didn't have the right to be just a woman, with my history and all. Kind of as if I wasn't a "real" woman and therefore should act accordingly. Well, forget about that. My trans-status means squat to me now and I don't feel feel there is any reason why I can't live my life as if I were in fact cis.

So anyways, you aren't a highly sexual being. That's okay. You don't have to be. That was just the vehicle I chose, and there is more to the story. It was all about my promiscuous and risky behavior. It was also about how I reinvented my life over the past 12 months. I went from being a fat lazy hermit biotch to being an smoking hot outgoing chick with a lust adventure. I got a BA, got out of a dead marriage that just wasn't working, took better care of myself, made new friends and I stopped making excuses for not trying new things. Oh, and I discovered that I really like sex after all :)

I can't tell you how to solve your own problems because we are not the same person and what might work for me might not work for you. I'm just telling my story and hope that perhaps it'll inspire you in a similar way the bridge story inspired me.

The weight loss though was probably a greater factor than I initially thought. I did not feel good about my appearance last year and I'm sure that played a big role in how subdued I let my life become. As soon as the kilos started to come off I felt more and more inclined to go out and socialize, so once you get that taken care of you might find that the rest of the knot unties itself :)
"Of course!"
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anjaq

Ok, I think I get it more then. Hmm - I must say not many situations now come to my mind that I would consider trying for that. Except to do as you did which - well, I said that already - not really so much interest on my side. Everything else basically is not as "dangerous". Also I am not as convinced that I would succeed in that sort of test. Two things are causing this uncertainty - one is the suspicion of what I read is called a "soft read" - people noticing the trans past or at least having a strong suspicion and then behaving a bitt differently - its a breeding ground for paranoia, so one never can be sure if there was something to it or not. Especially in polite European countries. (might be an interesting "dangerous situation" to do a vacation in some parts of the US maybe :P ) The other is that there are single instances I am just failing. No uncertainties or such, just people without any hint of uncertainty calling me a "he" in some situation - Usually other people will either not notice this at all (if they would be polite only and just not tell me, they probably would mention that situation afterwards and try to comfort me) or they will be confused - at times they will at this point look at me really carefully and then notice whatever they did not notice before - enlarged 100 times by my uneasiness and discomfort in that situation and then the dominoes topple and I just want to get out. So I know that its mot a 100% thing for sure, I am not sure if it is a 99%, 98% or even 99.8% or maybe if its actually just 80%, who knows. This is what you describe - this uncertainty where one stands and that should be clarified. Just dont know how - if the situations are dangerous and it is just an 80% or it is a 99% but I hit the remaining 1% in that situation, I'm dead without knowing what it was. Maybe overy dramatized now. I think I definitely would want to be at least sure that such idiotic situations do not happen anymore that tell me without going into danger zones that it is not a 100% for sure.

My suspicion on the black spot is mainly voice issues by the way. Nearly every time this happened it was in a dark environment (tent just lit with a fire, a table with just candlelight), visual clues are limited but people listen closer to the voices. My theory anyways. Maybe fire or candles also bring out some facial features that are disadvantageous - I dont know - I find it VERY hard to judge my face. One moment I think its great, the next time I think its just looking really "->-bleeped-<-". People I can ask are friends and never would tell me its bad - or they are transpeople who either say its great because the next sentence then is how much worse they are off - or they just make "standard" suggestions about surgeons they read about. Its a bit hard to find a neutral person who will say this and for which it does not matter if he knows or not.

It sounds all easy, but I guess it is not - "not letting the history hamper yourself now". Its a bit like telling a depressed person "just be happy". Its not something I feel and fear that can be forced but then again it has to be if one does not want to be stuck in uncertainty and doubt forever. It would be great to follow that advice and just "let it be" basically. The mind is annoying - it keeps refusing to just let it go for longer than a couple of moments - I noticed there is always a little multitasking thread open in my mind that thinks about my past, my trans-ness, that looks for signs of not passing, that looks critically at myself in the mirror and so on. It takes up capacity of my mind that could well go to much more fun things if I could end that thought... but I feel I cannot end it with jumping through beds, even if that worked for you. Though I guess I am nearing a potential mid life crisis person now who can behave like a teenager again and be like that at least without being shunned too much except of course for being obviously in a mid life crisis :P

Interesting that you also had a weight issue and things did change upon loosing that or were connected. Looking from the psychological (or "spiritual" if you like") side on it, I feel that these things are connected - one is lazy, afraid to be outgoing, sexually inactive, thus gains weight , thus is all of the above again - in part it may actually be as a friend of mine told me that I am putting up not just a mental shielding but also a physical one - against social and physical harm that can come from society in general (e.g. being called a "he) or from people in relationship. Of course now with the extra kilos I dont see the point in going out a lot or even looking at someone for a relationship or even "just sex" as I think of myself as too fat and unattractive, so thats a nice excuse. Guess htat has to go one way or the other (either not taking it as an excuse anymore or actually get rid of the kilos and not have that excuse anyways anymore).

The story is indeed powerful but also mystifies me a bit of course as it is so highly symbolic. But I really like it.

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