Quote from: Alice Danielle on September 08, 2013, 05:38:35 PM
I believe they said bisexuality was the norm and not the exception, not that everyone is bisexual.

No they did not they said no one is fully straight or gay basically

Quote from: A on September 06, 2013, 05:31:58 AM
Considering that the vast majority of homo and hetero people are to some extent partly bisexual, as studies have revealed, and that females (and not-so-females) are overwhelmingly encouraged to be with men, I think it's not surprising at all that trans guys would be above the statistics in terms of homosexuality. Your standard man who is truly bisexual has a high chance of prioritizing women for a relationship (perhaps to the point of completely excluding men) because he doesn't want to be seen as gay.

The same, although maybe not as strong because of how lesbians are generally accepted better than gays, can happen with women. If men and women attract you equally, but people around you will have a bad attitude towards you if you date a woman, then you're going to be strongly biased to see men.

Since sexuality is partly something that is learned (partly!), having always dated guys will make your would-be bisexual trans guy gay in fact, and maybe even he'd believe he's only into men, because he's always seen only men, so much that women are completely out of his mind.

Now spread that phenomenon not just to perfectly bi guys but on all partly bi guys (that is, the vast majority of guys) whose dysphoria didn't keep them from dating altogether and you're going to have pretty changed numbers compared to the normal average.

You can also add to that dysphoria problems. When you've been expected to be a woman for so long, when everything about being a woman literally disgusts you because of how hard it was thrown in your face... it wouldn't be so surprising if you felt like you're not a woman so much that you want nothing to do with them, and that whatever would have perhaps attracted you in women if you'd had better experiences is just, to you, a sad reminder of what you didn't want on you.

I know for a fact that it took me a while to get rid of my disgust for men and manly things that decreased my respect for men. Heck, if I hadn't recently fallen in love with and gotten to understand a man, I'm pretty sure I'd still have significant remnants of it. I think there'll always be a little something to hurt an emotional scar somewhere, but thanksfully, now I can love him (and, I figure, others) for what he is.

Right here!

Quote from: Alice Danielle on September 08, 2013, 05:49:39 PM
I see "vast majority" I don't see "all" in there at all.....

Might as well have said all, And that's also not the first person Ive heard that from, Ive heard that from quite a few people actually, And it mostly comes from lgb people that's the only people I hear it from

Quote from: Alice Danielle on September 08, 2013, 05:55:13 PM
No because there is a big difference between vast majority and all.  Do you think maybe you've heard it from quite a few people because perhaps there's some truth to it?  Most people who wants to be seen as straight are not going to make that statement because then people will think that they aren't straight.

Im not gonna argue with you on that but I don't think theirs truth to it I believe most of your women get curious, But o I believe that everyon or should I say vast majority of people like both sexes no I don't, I think mpre people are becoming open about their sexuality though that's it

I'd just like to point out that what A said on this board wasn't the exact language of the study, I didn't see any quotes or links to the study.

Now, what A said does make sense to me. I think love is genderless, but society does have a big impact on what we think and how we feel. Of course, some people are strictly attracted either physically or emotionally to one sex and one gender only, whether it be naturally or due to society's pressures. But, if the world was different and no one cared about who you were attracted to, I would suspect we'd see a lot more people who identified as bisexual than we do today. I know of many gays and lesbians who first thought they were straight, but later on found out they weren't, they only thought they were straight because they were trying to fit in with society unconsciously -- this isn't uncommon in the LGBT community. I wouldn't be surprised if there were a lot more people out there who are actually bi or homosexual who are just forced to hide it because of where they live and the local laws/customs, or don't realize it because they haven't had the opportunity to be open with themselves about who they are.

Also,

Quote from: Brandon on September 08, 2013, 05:33:27 PM
Again,A fully straight perspn wil not fall in love with the same sex, I believe more women get curious but men tend not to, Ive loved women since 5 yrs old, And you just basically said everyone is bisexual because of that study

Just a question for you to ponder, why is it that women get curious but men don't? Is it biological or is it that it is more accepting in our society for a female to express emotional attachment to other females, while it is still typically taboo to allow men to show attachment to other men?

Brandon: That's basically saying one thing and its contrary. Being open about your sexuality -is- bisexuality, partial or not. Being absolutely and fully heterosexual (or vice versa for homosexuality) means that you do not have the ability to be turned on, to feel the slightest sexual desire for the same sex, at all. If you're "open" then you do have that "ability" to some extent.

LearnedHand: Yeah, indeed, it was only fuzzy memories.

Quote from: LearnedHand on September 08, 2013, 06:24:32 PM
I'd just like to point out that what A said on this board wasn't the exact language of the study, I didn't see any quotes or links to the study.

Now, what A said does make sense to me. I think love is genderless, but society does have a big impact on what we think and how we feel. Of course, some people are strictly attracted either physically or emotionally to one sex and one gender only, whether it be naturally or due to society's pressures. But, if the world was different and no one cared about who you were attracted to, I would suspect we'd see a lot more people who identified as bisexual than we do today. I know of many gays and lesbians who first thought they were straight, but later on found out they weren't, they only thought they were straight because they were trying to fit in with society unconsciously -- this isn't uncommon in the LGBT community. I wouldn't be surprised if there were a lot more people out there who are actually bi or homosexual who are just forced to hide it because of where they live and the local laws/customs, or don't realize it because they haven't had the opportunity to be open with themselves about who they are.

Also,

Just a question for you to ponder, why is it that women get curious but men don't? Is it biological or is it that it is more accepting in our society for a female to express emotional attachment to other females, while it is still typically taboo to allow men to show attachment to other men?

Yes its more of turn on for women in general to get intimate with eachother, It's more acceptable, Ive talked to many people and not to be rude but two men getting intimate is not a turn on to alot of people so yes in that case its more acceptable for a woman to have sex with another woman

Quote from: A on September 08, 2013, 06:27:01 PM
Brandon: That's basically saying one thing and its contrary. Being open about your sexuality -is- bisexuality, partial or not. Being absolutely and fully heterosexual (or vice versa for homosexuality) means that you do not have the ability to be turned on, to feel the slightest sexual desire for the same sex, at all. If you're "open" then you do have that "ability" to some extent.

LearnedHand: Yeah, indeed, it was only fuzzy memories.

That's only if your open no real straight person would fall in love with the same sex, Know I believe people should fall in love with the personality not whats in someones pants but that falls into the trans catergory, Im a man well young man regardless of whats between my legs, But again at the same time I like women and would only have sex with women, But still look at her personality as far as dating goes

Quote from: Brandon on September 08, 2013, 06:33:20 PM


Yes its more of turn on for women in general to get intimate with eachother, It's more acceptable, Ive talked to many people and not to be rude but two men getting intimate is not a turn on to alot of people so yes in that case its more acceptable for a woman to have sex with another woman

So, going off what you said, isn't it likely that if it was more socially acceptable in our society, would more men be physically and emotionally attracted to other men?

I think A was trying to say, that people probably are attracted to people of the same sex more often than we currently see in public but just don't realize it because they're not allowed to by society. A wasn't trying to say that everyone thinks or knows that they are bisexual. Just deep down in someone's brain, they might be, but don't realize it.

Yeah, better acceptance for lesbians than gays comes from long ago. Recently I saw a page that listed and described the countries with laws that forbid homosexuality in some way. There was one country where homosexual men could be killed for their sexual orientation, but homosexuality was simply not a crime for women. Even though in general, women are very discriminated against in that country, I think.

With women expected to stay at home and take care of the house and children and men expected to always be out to bring back money, I guess all of the women staying at home led to somehow making it be okay for them to be intimate with each other. Perhaps they didn't see it as "real" sex or "real" love, because a man or penetration or whatever is required for that, because everything revolves around men. Dunno, it's just speculation. I guess sexism and completely different and opposite conceptions of men and women had to bring women SOME advantages.

Interestingly, there are countries that, until a few years ago, completely permitted female homosexuality but made it a crime for males, and then, out of "equality", made it a crime for women too. With nicer penalties.

Quote from: LearnedHand on September 08, 2013, 06:38:36 PM
So, going off what you said, isn't it likely that if it was more socially acceptable in our society, would more men be physically and emotionally attracted to other men?

I think A was trying to say, that people probably are attracted to people of the same sex more often than we currently see in public but just don't realize it because they're not allowed to by society. A wasn't trying to say that everyone thinks or knows that they are bisexual. Just deep down in someone's brain, they might be, but don't realize it.

Yes maybe, But attraction means nothing unless your sexually attracted, I know plenty of men and women who are no were near gay but can agknowlage the fact that some one of the same sex can look nice it means nothing its all about who you would date and get intimate with

Well, uhm, that's where the differences between fundamental (what should be with a perfectly neutral society and upbringing and a perfect sampling of people to meet) and declared (what a person says they'll see themself as) sexual orientation.

Basically, let's say you're 90 % into women and 10 % into men (this you being a general you, not anyone in particular). What are the chances you'll say you're into men? Nah, at those numbers, chances are that you're only into women in all practical aspects. Also, who knows, perhaps a woman with slightly masculine traits would perfectly fit you.

What I'm trying to say might be more easily worded as "most heterosexuals have a capability to enjoy homosexual behaviours, and vice versa". That doesn't mean they'll admit it, and that doesn't mean it'll be strong enough for them to even think about it. And it doesn't mean they should change their "official" sexual orientation. Heck, if it takes the most favourable conditions in the world for you to enjoy a homosexual relationship, in practical terms, you're simply hetero.

And all this is not even taking into account feelings, which complicate matters by a fair bit. Some people, for instance, are asexual at varying levels. Others might be totally turned on by men only, but constantly fall in love with and want to marry women.

Quote from: A on September 08, 2013, 06:55:32 PM
Well, uhm, that's where the differences between fundamental (what should be with a perfectly neutral society and upbringing and a perfect sampling of people to meet) and declared (what a person says they'll see themself as) sexual orientation.

Basically, let's say you're 90 % into women and 10 % into men (this you being a general you, not anyone in particular). What are the chances you'll say you're into men? Nah, at those numbers, chances are that you're only into women in all practical aspects. Also, who knows, perhaps a woman with slightly masculine traits would perfectly fit you.

What I'm trying to say might be more easily worded as "most heterosexuals have a capability to enjoy homosexual behaviours, and vice versa". That doesn't mean they'll admit it, and that doesn't mean it'll be strong enough for them to even think about it. And it doesn't mean they should change their "official" sexual orientation. Heck, if it takes the most favourable conditions in the world for you to enjoy a homosexual relationship, in practical terms, you're simply hetero.

And all this is not even taking into account feelings, which complicate matters by a fair bit. Some people, for instance, are asexual at varying levels. Others might be totally turned on by men only, but constantly fall in love with and want to marry women.

Yea I think you should word it differently, Into means you would date and trust me I'm only into women, But I get what your saying know

Quote from: Brandon on September 08, 2013, 06:58:59 PM
Yea I think you should word it differently, Into means you would date and trust me I'm only into women, But I get what your saying know

No one is saying you're a gay man. No need to feel defensive, we believe you.

Quote from: LearnedHand on September 08, 2013, 07:00:36 PM
No one is saying you're a gay man. No need to feel defensive, we believe you.

No i'm just saying some people take it the wrong way, Because when I hear into I think you would date or if you will have sex with unless theirs a different meaning

Quote from: BearGuy on February 10, 2013, 06:13:34 PM
Since I've been here, I noticed that about 80-90% of everyone is gay. In real life I meet other guys and they are either bisexual or gay, I never met a straight transguy (like me). As a kid, I always thought I was a boy not only because I behaved like one, but I loooved girls from childhood xD It was only until recently that I found out that FTMs can be gay, and that identity & orientation are two different things. I thought I was a lesbian, because I'm a boy in a girls body...I seriously thought that up until recently.

So, how come is it that most transguys are gay/bi? Is there a link between being FTM and attraction to men? I know I'm 100% straight, and I have no femininity in me at all, behavior and interest-wise. As a kid I thought I was bisexual, but only out of curiosity. Now I realized I'm just the typical white straight male, nothing special  lol

You could say the same thing about most M2Fs.

So as a M2F or as a woman who transitioned here are my thoughts...

Trans people often tend to envy members of their target sex group and make friends with them to get closer to the experience of being [Target Sex].  Example, "I know I am male on the outside but I am female on the inside and I want female friends so I can feel I am closer to the experience of being female.  And how much more close can you get to the experience of being [Target Sex] without actually being it then by getting in bed with a member of your [Target Sex] group.

I remember before transition when I was with women I would go straight to the oral and it was like I was trying to absorb their essence.

B.  Who knows better than someone born the wrong sex that who we love is who we love, regardless of anatomy?

Anyway... I am straight.  When I was still transitioning (M2F) I dated a pre operative trans woman like myself and I really like penis but I could probably be with a woman too except dating has become about economics and I like a guy who wants to take care of me and I am tired of going dutch and penises are awesome.  Also I don't like competing for the female role, I got tired of that when I was still dating my M2F girlfriend.

competing for the female role? well, that sounds pretty weird. maybe it's because you were both mtf and wanting to feel like a traditional woman. there should be an abundance of women out there who would love to top another woman. some times it depends more on the person than their gender.

I can understand that "competition" in a way. Trans women tend to want to be a woman - be seen and treated as such - more than your average woman, out of, ya know, deprivation. But when two women with that strong need come together, it can clash in a way. Simple example is spooning. "Wanting to be female" in that context makes you want to be the one who's hugged rather than the one who hugs. Having a girlfriend who always wants to be the one who's hugged can lead you to feel frustrated. I think it's an accummulation of little things like that.

Also, several (not all of course) so-said "feminine" lesbians will tend to expect a masculine behaviour from their girlfriends, to a smaller or larger extent, going from literally a very butch lesbian to just some relatively subtle personality differences. They might yearn for someone protective, someone active, someone a bit rougher than themselves. But if both girls are that way, it's going to clash in quite a few ways. Not clash with sparkles like two dominating figures clash, but it will lead to frustration.