Some of you might feel this is just a storm in a teacup, which it might be, but it's been seriously grinding my gears ever since I sent the email on friday.

There's a very high-profile comic anthology taking submissions now, but they have very strict rules about requiring the participation of a "self-identified woman". I sent the person who did the call for entries write-up my question , asking pretty simply: "I'm AFAB but have no gender. Can I still participate?" Unsurprisingly, I never heard back even though this is a time-sensitive thing; I'm sure they don't want to touch this potential can of worms with a 10-foot pole. And honestly, I wouldn't either, but it still makes me mad and I wish they would further clarify their policy. Moreover, it makes me ask what point is there to this rule, all things considered? I see the purpose of not permitting all-male creative teams to participate since men dominate this industry already, but what does it accomplish to exclude nonbinary teams, especially when we do not have access to the funds nor the names that this anthology does? I could understand if the anthology was for trans* women, but it's mostly, if not entirely, cis girls anyways. Even though I'm nonbinary, I still need access to women-only spaces because I'm treated like one, and I have the body of one. At current, there's really no such thing as a nonbinary space that I could take advantage of anyways.

Is this nonbinary erasure or is it just something I was never meant to be able to participate in without the input of a woman creator? Should I just bite the bullet and pretend to be a woman so I can do a solo submission? Ugh, this has just been bugging me for days now and I'm not sure what to do.

Hi Lo, how did you describe your gender? exactly as you stated? Did you say you didn't identify as female or just as you stated here 'you have no gender'. Did you use the acronym AFAB? (Maybe they had to look it up lol)

I would think that if you're non-transitioning non-binary and a woman to the world for all practical purposes, it shouldn't hurt for you to participate (unless your identity is specifically 'not-female' or something). As you said, the reasons for women-only venues still apply to you. Though I guess it would depend on the goals and philosophy behind the anthology. If it's more like a 'female pride' type thing, then yeah it might seem out of place to have someone who doesn't identify as a woman.
Other than that, it doesn't seem practical to exclude all AFAB persons identifying as non-binary. What about those who identify 'butch' as their gender and so on?

Yeah, I said it pretty much exactly as I phrased it here, nothing more.

Going over their FAQ, it almost seems like it was by and for straight and LGB women at first, and further implications of just what their gender requirement meant was an afterthought. There's nothing in the title or design of the book that is inherently gendered anyways. The title is neutral, the stories can be about the most cishetero characters ever made (it's called "Smut Peddler" so they're all supposed to be erotic stories), there is nothing deliberately "female pride" about it beyond the submission requirement.

And yes, exactly. There are so many ways to pick apart the requirement (like you said, there are butch women who don't actually identify as women but don't consider themselves trans* either). It's one thing if they were a conservative feminist group, but they're not... or at least they don't broadcast themselves to be.

ETA: Well, looks like they updated the FAQ with a variation on my question, actually. Basically comes down to "yes, you need to be a woman or find one to work with", with lip service at the end paid to how hard it is to want to get work like this out there if you're nonbinary, and that they """understand""" and are "working on something". Ugh, I hope whatever they do is good and not just a sloppy afterthought like how pretty much every nonbinary space set up by cis or binary trans people is. If they don't put a nonbinary person at the head of that project, I'm gonna be even madder. >:[

should we start a non-binarist web magazine?

it feels somewhat unfair that you aren't accepted. this is one of those cases where i'd call myself woman simply because my body is qualification enough the way it is right now. and i'll call myself that unless i transition. it's kind of an ironic birth right for me to call myself woman, and it is for you too if you want to use it. to most people, presentation is gender, you qualify 100% there at least, don't you?

Quote from: Taka on September 10, 2013, 12:41:25 PM
should we start a non-binarist web magazine?

There are plenty of nonbinary zines, but they have terrible circulation (selling in the dozens at most; I don't think most sell into the 3 digits), no compensation, extremely poor production and print quality, and none of them are really have the means to emphasize art or comics work because of the above. There is one I found debuting this weekend at SPX called Queerotica, but I don't know if they're going to be submission-based or invite-based or if there's even going to be more than one volume made.

Quote from: Taka on September 10, 2013, 12:41:25 PMit feels somewhat unfair that you aren't accepted. this is one of those cases where i'd call myself woman simply because my body is qualification enough the way it is right now. and i'll call myself that unless i transition. it's kind of an ironic birth right for me to call myself woman, and it is for you too if you want to use it. to most people, presentation is gender, you qualify 100% there at least, don't you?

Something I'm beginning to notice that binary people seem to be completely oblivious of is that, for nonbinaries, it's a lot more complicated than "gender isn't anatomy", especially where socialization and safe spaces are concerned. This is something I posted someplace else where I've been grumbling about the situation: "I dunno, I'm getting weird vibes from their response. I feel like we're being ushered off to a kid's table because "shh the adults are talking". Everywhere I go I feel the binarist attitude toward us is to think of us as confused, childlike people playing at being trans* who don't need full recognition because we're not a real category of identity.

And, yes, nobody should be conflating their gender with their anatomy, but when there is a "men vs women" dichotomy implicitly being supported (which is what you do when you send the message of "women first and foremost because it's a male dominated industry") and M or F are your only options, what else is there to work with if you don't want to completely remove yourself from the system? It's such a simple thing to spout out if you're binary."

Getting along in the world as a nonbinary person is almost like waging guerrilla warfare against the rest of the world. :\

Once again, the Forest and the people who reside here are magically invisible to the binary world.
It does have it's drawbacks, it has it's moments that shine brightly.

Our secret abilities to be able to morph into something that ranges from one side of the binary spectrum to the other. 
It scares societies self imposed rules and regulations of what is real and what isn't.
It must be difficult for them to live in such confined spaces in their minds.

Nice thing about this forum is the people that recognize us and support us.
Outside of the forum can be limited in it's structure.

I do, oh so much, love the idea of a Non-Binary Web Magazine.
A topic well worth exploring.
At the moment, I'm buried in a photographic project of several hundred photo's.
I want to explore this idea, as I don't have any experience in doing any of it.
I am more than willing to help out with whatever I can for such a thing.

That brightens my day considerably, just the idea of it.
Ativan

*just read Lo's comment. I consider it still to be worthy of discussion.
Guerrilla warfare is not an unfamiliar tactic to me. 

QuoteSomething I'm beginning to notice that binary people seem to be completely oblivious of is that, for nonbinaries, it's a lot more complicated than "gender isn't anatomy", especially where socialization and safe spaces are concerned. This is something I posted someplace else where I've been grumbling about the situation: "I dunno, I'm getting weird vibes from their response. I feel like we're being ushered off to a kid's table because "shh the adults are talking". Everywhere I go I feel the binarist attitude toward us is to think of us as confused, childlike people playing at being trans* who don't need full recognition because we're not a real category of identity.

And, yes, nobody should be conflating their gender with their anatomy, but when there is a "men vs women" dichotomy implicitly being supported (which is what you do when you send the message of "women first and foremost because it's a male dominated industry") and M or F are your only options, what else is there to work with if you don't want to completely remove yourself from the system? It's such a simple thing to spout out if you're binary."

Getting along in the world as a nonbinary person is almost like waging guerrilla warfare against the rest of the world. :\

I don't even try to tell people I'm non-binary anymore; firstly because no one knows what it means, and secondly because when I tell cis people "I'm not a man or a woman" in their minds that invalidates my trans*ness. Because I'm just confused or crazy. And cis people aren't the only ones there are plenty of trans* people who are equally dismissive of non-binary identities.

There is something subversive about non-binary gender identities and that works for and against us. Socially subversive elements tend to stand out which builds social exposure and the more people are exposed the closer we get to having our identities respected. This however isn't always great as the vast majority of visible non-binary identities are intentionally subversive and theatrical. There are plenty of binary queer people who use non-binary identities to further a sociopolitical motive, which leaves little room for non-binary normalcy.

Its like being trans² as far as social stigma. Cis-people can rationalize binary trans* people because they don't unsettle the gender status quo. Being non-binary does unsettle that structure and puts us in a state of opposition. Since we are such a small group, it's easy for binary folks to push us aside. And non-binary spaces are rare, the only reason I started coming to Susan's was because it was the only site I found with a good Non-binary section.

Quote from: Ativan Prescribed on September 10, 2013, 01:20:16 PM
I do, oh so much, love the idea of a Non-Binary Web Magazine.
A topic well worth exploring.
At the moment, I'm buried in a photographic project of several hundred photo's.
I want to explore this idea, as I don't have any experience in doing any of it.
I am more than willing to help out with whatever I can for such a thing.

That brightens my day considerably, just the idea of it.
Ativan

I would love to do it too, but someone else would have to do all the heavy-lifting, unfortunately. Paying participants is also something that would be important to me because it's so easy to get in the mindset, if you're an independent creator, that you have to do a lot of working for free if you're ever to have a shot at fame. Lots of genderqueer and nonbinary people make things already and share them with the world... I want us to get paid for it as often as cis and hetero creators do. The DYI anarchist thing is great so long as you're still living with your parents for free. And the only way we could secure that kind of funding is if we had someone with clout working with us and spreading the word.

LGB folks have put trans* people on the backburner for decades... how long do I have to support women's stuff and binary trans* stuff before they look back and remember us?

Quote from: Kia on September 10, 2013, 01:53:50 PMThere is something subversive about non-binary gender identities and that works for and against us. Socially subversive elements tend to stand out which builds social exposure and the more people are exposed the closer we get to having our identities respected. This however isn't always great as the vast majority of visible non-binary identities are intentionally subversive and theatrical. There are plenty of binary queer people who use non-binary identities to further a sociopolitical motive, which leaves little room for non-binary normalcy.

Nonbinary identities seem to really be going through growing pains right now in trying to figure out where it wants to be in 5, 10, 20 years. The vast majority of nonbinary people, as far as I can tell, are my age and younger. They're still worried about prom. I read what they have to say on places like tumblr (which is good in that there are a lot of genderqueer people there, bad in that it's not a "space", let alone a safe one), and 90% of them are fretting about high school drama. Not that those things are unworthy of fretting about, but that's not the adult world at all. College isn't even the adult world. Very few people seem to be talking about what it's like to be a nonbinary parent, or nonbinary and working a desk job, or nonbinary and sorting out a living will. You're right, we're still figuring out what being "nonbinary normal" is. Maybe there is no equilibrium there and it will always be going this way and that. If we barely have a grasp on it, how can we expect cisfolk to?

Quote from: Kia on September 10, 2013, 01:53:50 PMIts like being trans² as far as social stigma. Cis-people can rationalize binary trans* people because they don't unsettle the gender status quo. Being non-binary does unsettle that structure and puts us in a state of opposition. Since we are such a small group, it's easy for binary folks to push us aside. And non-binary spaces are rare, the only reason I started coming to Susan's was because it was the only site I found with a good Non-binary section.

Yes, that's the reason I came to Susan's too. Finding nonbinary spaces isn't that difficult... if you're okay with everyone being high school and college age. Which, truth be told, I'm not. I like the wide variety of ages and experiences here. Not going to say it isn't lacking, but it's the best option for me that I've found.

How small are we though? I wish the option would be available on the census one of these years...

I think a better way of looking at it is how big are we as a group.
When I talk about Binary vs Non-Binary, I try not to make it an us vs them kind of thing.
Difficult to do, sometimes it does define itself that way when trying to find definition.
The overlap of the two, that I talk about isn't as limited as one would suppose.

I honestly believe there are many more people who would consider themselves Non-Binary should a viable definition come about.
It's much safer to declare yourself to be a part of the binary, for the most part.
You're amongst a much larger and better defined group.
The key is being able to define it in such a way as to give those 'Binaries' on the fence something more than just 'questioning'.

One of the issues seems to be that Binary is such a stable platform to work with in society.
Non-Binary is conceptual in the way it is viewed, for the most part.
You have to be one to understand isn't sufficient for most people.
There are so many of us that do define ourselves, without doubt, that we are Non-Binary.
But there exists a very large group of people who don't want to wade into uncharted territory.
Our definitions are less of a map or guide than the established Binary world.

I personally would define many who choose to declare themselves as Binary as Non-Binary.
But who am I to tell them what they should think?
I don't have that guide or list of qualifications that they go by as Binaries do.
Many of them can define themselves just as easily as Binary, by the set of rules that they have available.
It really comes down to them just putting less weight on things Non-Binary about themselves.
They choose instead to put weight on their Binary characteristics.
But that is also a very personal thing that can't be denied just because there are some ways of seeing it differently.
That strength of viewpoint towards Binary is strong. The world revolves around it.

We are very much aware of how that works against us as a group.
It would be nice to have as much legitimacy as Binaries receive as *Trans People do by *Cis People.
An objective of mine for years has been to legitimize us as much as I can.
But here is the only outlet that is safe for the time being to expound on it.
But we are still just considered a subset of a larger group that really doesn't define us at all, just by the very nature of it.

An objective of rolling out a publication or even a safe place of our own would be monumental.
But I think we are verging on just that sort of a thing.
Organizing it would be possible, depending on how it is presented and how many people would dedicate even a small amount of time to it.
Society is getting used to the idea of androgynous again, but that's more of a fashion oriented thing.
But the definition of it as far as gender goes towards a legitimate gender in itself has come along with it.
Society isn't so much unaware as it is just consumed with other things.

Something on the order of a web magazine would have to reflect a lot of things in one image, so to speak.
As it is, referencing ourselves through Susan's is about all we have that has any real weight to it.
But having a larger space to work with would be nice and a magazine would do just that.
But it will take the energy of more than just a handful of people to make it work.
Keeping this section of Susan's as a reference would be to everyone's advantage.
It's a place to start from and to use as a way of legitimizing us as a gender.
Just as it has for *Trans People in general.
I'm open to ideas and suggestions.
I'm on Facebook, but I haven't actively looked for groups there.
There are a lot of groups that we are included in, but exclusively Non-Binary,.. I'm not aware of any.

This should be a topic by itself.
Ativan

Quote from: Ativan Prescribed on September 10, 2013, 03:33:20 PM
This should be a topic by itself.
Ativan

It really should. Shall we make one? :]

Done. 

I think part of it is in the portrayal, Lo. If you had said, "I'd really like to participate. I don't entirely identify as a woman (I don't really identify with any gender), but I was assigned female at birth, and my lived experience is as a woman in society, and all of the disadvantages that go along with that. Is that okay?" I think they'd probably have said, "sure."

Most binary people don't have a clue what to do with non-binaries, because it rarely comes up and they don't really understand the idea anyway. But generally a lot of progressive folks are pretty open to direction. You need to sell "why I should be included" rather than simply asking and letting them essentially flip a coin to decide.

We live in a binary system at present, which means we either go with a best fit category or we get left in the cold. When people say "girls over there," I go over there. No it doesn't fit perfectly, but it's the best I can do in the system I live in. Not to mention, I'm not comfortable outing myself as non-binary on a regular basis. I mean, most people can see I'm not exactly a lady from the way I present, but there is a limit to how much I'm willing to deal with gender constantly like that. I think you could just participate without saying anything, on the grounds of "close enough."

Well, I got an email response telling me that the FAQ had been updated, so with all the thinking I've been doing about it lately, and in talking to you guys and a couple others, I replied:

QuoteAfter speaking with a few other nonbinary folks (who are and are not creatives themselves) about the decision to keep the submission guidelines the way they are, though, I do have a few words to say about our collective opinion about the matter. I don't intent for this to have any influence on the decisions of the hard-working people putting this anthology together, but I do feel it is an appropriate education moment due to the reasons cited in the FAQ and the fact that the organizers are all likely binary-identified people also.

While we wholeheartedly agree that anatomy is not gender, we feel that it is a simplistic view when it comes to people who are not binary. We are people who navigate a binary world day in and day out, where we have no legal or social recognition, and no hope to ever pass as our gender in our lifetimes. Resources, support systems, and institutions are often gendered spaces where we are forced to pretend to be one or the other just to get even the most basic needs or casual desires met. And so, sometimes, we have no choice but to identify with the gender we were and are assigned. It is something we are used to doing; these guerrilla tactics are daily requirements to get along in the world. Nonbinary people have so far depended on binary trans* people for support and resources, but we get often get scraps in those spaces, and oftentimes the language being used throughout the space is very binarist and completely erases us as well. Some of us do not even bother affirming our identities anywhere outside of our own head, because attempting to align ourselves with our gender in the wider world is almost guaranteed to be a losing battle except for the smallest ways. So this is why it is important that we have access to binary gendered spaces that we feel most closely resembles our identity; oftentimes, we have no choice but to enter into them. It would be nice to at least be able to do that with the open understanding of what our situation is rather than having to pretend we are someone that we are not if resources cannot be allocated to create something comparable for us.

i hope they get the message. you've written it pretty clearly.

Doubtful.  The vast majority, even "progressives", of society has a binary bias because not only is it the default of biology and culture, it is the path of least resistance.  Boys and girls. Check this box or that. Most people do not want to think outside of that box because it adds extra work and effort to them, such as the editorial review board who has to decide if a non-binary person qualifies for participation or not.  Most likely choice for them is to simply declare that genetic sex decides, and be done with it. People are lazy that way.

Quote from: Taka on September 11, 2013, 02:22:38 PM
i hope they get the message. you've written it pretty clearly.

I don't care if they do anything about it (this year) but I really don't hope it falls on deaf ears. The thing is run by a bunch of pro-trans* feminists, we should be more than just on their radar.

I think for me this was just an exercise in raising awareness, which is something that I want to get better at doing. So for me personally, just having the courage to type it up and hit 'send' was a small success.

Your response was not only excellent, it could serve well as a baseline for a bigger project.
I had mentioned before about reflecting a lot of things in one image.
You did just that.
Ativan

Thanks guys, I'm just glad I was able to say the right thing.

It occurred to me last night when I was talking to my husband about the development that nonbinary identity is so much simpler than binaries want to make it out to be. We are ridiculously simple. It only gets complicated when we are taken out of the realm of the internet, and theory, and placed in the real world where we actually live, that it becomes just a little more complex-- but not even that much more. I think they would rather continue to think of us as theoretical rather than very real people. That would mean they'd have to start thinking about the reality of our near-complete lack of support in any wider context, something that they are probably happy being complicit in so long as we are out of sight and out of mind.

It is ridiculous the way binaries envision us.
Really not any more complicated than they are.
Same stuff, just a different mix.
I look at it like homophobes.
They fear they will be exposed.
Really, how many are in a closet because of societies confusion?
There are very few if any, people who haven't felt what they think, is the opposite gender in them, at one time or another.
Ooooh, it's so scary to fall out of step with the marching that society has demanded.
The start of psychology was the start of all this gender and orientation bullcrap.
A couple hundred years ago and before, people didn't much give a crap, so long as you weren't an A'hole.
Society has to get over this obsession with gender and orientation.
It doesn't make a bit of difference in how the world works, it has always worked, we have always been here.
Religion and politics, dosed with misinformation from the dark ages of psychology, has really screwed society up.
There are far more important things to worry about, but they have this need to worry about gender and orientation.
I think most of it is a fear they will be exposed for having at least felt these differences themselves.
"What will everyone think of me if they found out?", mostly nothing.
Except for the bigots. They will feel their bigotry, their better than you feelings come to the surface.
They're the ones with their closet doors firmly shut. You can bet on it.
Ativan