sorry

It sounds like you have a strong preference as far as presentation goes, but that you don't actually have a gender identity? (Neither do I, and I identify somewhere between agender/neutrois.)

While I would personally prefer not to "live" as anything, I currently accept being ID'd female. Most inclinations I have toward any extreme as far as presentation goes (suit and tie, fancy dress) feel very much like the inclinations I have to cosplay. Just so happens that putting on clothes-clothes is a lot more socially acceptable than going out dressed like a Mandalorian. 

I say... dress however the heck you want, lol! Who said you had to own any casual wear anyways? I give mad props to the dapper dandies whose wardrobes consist of nothing but brightly colored suits, pocket squares, bowties, cufflinks and matching socks, and the gals (and guys!) who dress up in their sweet lolita best every day of the week. I'd go out trussed up in a complete suit of foam armor all the time if I could, hehe.

And yay! Haha, yeah, INFJs seem to be a bit on the rare side.

You're right, it does feel wrong. It's something that I can mostly work with (at least right now, I can't say how I'll feel next year or in 5 years from now), and if it's more than just irksome for you then I sympathize. Not "passing" as cis is one thing, but definitely don't let other people tell you how you can and can't look so long as it's not something you're doing to appease somebody else. Yeah, I sound like a big hypocrite right now, but the least you can do is to arm yourself with impeccable self-awareness and know why you're doing the thing that you don't really want to do so you can formulate an exit strategy and cope as best you can in the meantime.

Quote from: Lo on September 12, 2013, 09:40:19 PM
I say... dress however the heck you want, lol! Who said you had to own any casual wear anyways? I give mad props to the dapper dandies whose wardrobes consist of nothing but brightly colored suits, pocket squares, bowties, cufflinks and matching socks, and the gals (and guys!) who dress up in their sweet lolita best every day of the week. I'd go out trussed up in a complete suit of foam armor all the time if I could, hehe.

And yay! Haha, yeah, INFJs seem to be a bit on the rare side.

You're right, it does feel wrong. It's something that I can mostly work with (at least right now, I can't say how I'll feel next year or in 5 years from now), and if it's more than just irksome for you then I sympathize. Not "passing" as cis is one thing, but definitely don't let other people tell you how you can and can't look so long as it's not something you're doing to appease somebody else. Yeah, I sound like a big hypocrite right now, but the least you can do is to arm yourself with impeccable self-awareness and know why you're doing the thing that you don't really want to do so you can formulate an exit strategy and cope as best you can in the meantime.

You just made my day saying Lolita. Even though I'm starting to lean towards male (my marker is male on here after all!) I still occasionally wear dresses and I really want to get some Lolita....

Quote from: broken. on September 13, 2013, 12:26:35 AM
For me, the only part that hurts in all of this is just never being sure of who I and really not knowing which direction to go to find out.

This basically sums up my life.

I agree..

Quote from: broken. on September 13, 2013, 12:26:35 AM
I don't know, do you (and to the other people reading as well) feel that certainty with your identity? For me, the only part that hurts in all of this is just never being sure of who I am and really not knowing which direction to go to find out.

i think i just let the uncertainty go after a too long while of doubting myself. if my gender changes often, then maybe that's just who i am. it's everybody else's fault if they expect me to be either male or female. i'm planning to start a revolution by sewing both male and female traditional costumes for everyday use. just to show some possibly unnecessary pride.

well, it's more like a still living tradition. we generally use it as formal wear, but some use it every day. the model in this pic is from my family's area, it's one that had to be reconstructed because it went out of use around a hundred years ago. when the norwegian government got the funny idea that all people in norway should be norwegian only. the language they used to speak in the area is already lost, unfortunately.

Quote from: broken. on September 13, 2013, 12:26:35 AM
I don't know, do you (and to the other people reading as well) feel that certainty with your identity? For me, the only part that hurts in all of this is just never being sure of who I am and really not knowing which direction to go to find out.

I guess I kind of learned not to care as much as possible, because caring doesn't seem to help me much. I also think it helped that for me, my body kind of took precedence over everything because it just hurt so bad. I really, really needed my body to fit as closely as possible to the traditional female model. And now that it's basically fixed I feel a ton better and don't really mind so much that other things are screwy.

But I don't really have any kind of gender identity. I feel the same creep of discomfort with "lady" that I did with "sir," and grouping myself with "women" feels awkward as all hell. I also barely have a gender expression preference. Mostly my taste runs to femme boy clothes and masculine girl clothes, specifically because they are as close as I can get to gender neutral. Mostly gender just irritates and upsets me. Technically I guess I'm supposed to be agender, but I don't like wearing any gender label at all. I wish I could pretend it doesn't exist.

But we all have to live in this binary gender world and I think it is best to focus on whatever makes you feel comfortable. The reason isn't really as important as the feels in the end. If you are comfortable in a female presentation then that's perfectly valid. You don't need to justify it with anything beyond "this works for me." It frustrates me to no end how invalid non-binaries end up feeling in trans communities. As long as you aren't harming anyone, there really isn't a wrong answer. You just try to figure out what feels good (or feels least bad) and do that.

I couldn't care less if I'm not a real girl, because I am real happy. So there!

Quote from: broken. on September 18, 2013, 05:57:38 AM
Ahhh sorry I didn't see your reply!! That's so cool! What does the women's outfit look like?

like this. it can be any color, the main differences are the length, collar, and accessories.

Quote from: broken. on September 18, 2013, 05:57:38 AM
I don't even feel invalidated in trans spaces so much as irrelevant and unrelated. When I tell (most--big qualifier here) MTFs my problems it's like they didn't even read them 99% of the time, they project their own problems onto whatever I said and go me too to a problem that they have, not me. They give me advice for someone who is not me.

But that is technically being invalidated. If they aren't validating YOU and the stuff you want advice about, then that's invalidation. :\

QuoteI feel lucky that that is not the case for everyone, you included, and there are some fantastic people here, but while they are supportive, our situations are just pretty different... I don't identify with really any trans narrative except I guess in part the classical one that everyone considers a relic and is trying very hard to get away from perpetuating.

Which one is that? The X in Y body?

Hey Broken,

I understand you are having a really difficult time discover your identity.  No one should project their situation on yours and you do have unique problems (as we all do).  I notice you keep talking about detransitioning, so let me as the obvious question, why not?  If that is truly what you think is for the best, what is stopping you?  I'm not suggesting you take any path, I'm just asking you your thoughts on it.  It's very possible to be a feminine male and lead a productive life.  What is stopping you?  Again, I'm not suggesting anything, but I do think these questions can help you.

The most important thing is that you find what makes you happy and follow through with it.  Forget labels and forget what everyone else thinks.  Who is Broken? What does Broken want? How does she/he want people to view her or interact with her?  What does she/he aspire to in life?  Any goals or accomplishments? What life does she/he hope to lead?  I noticed from some of your other posts that you seem confused about more than just gender.  I really believe these broader questions may really help you solve the gender question as well and help you find peace.  Keep in mind, these are hard questions. I still ask myself these very questions and sometimes find it hard to answer.  But at the very least, thinking about this helps us set a direction and path for ourselves that we can strive to follow. 

Having said all that, the best piece of advice anyone here can give you is to suggest you talk with a therapist.  I know it's hard, but it may really help.  You don't want to continue transitioning and find out it was the wrong move nor do you want to detransition and feel regret.  I really hope you will try.

Good luck with everything Broken.  It hurts me to see you suffer with these thoughts, and I really hope you find the peace of mind you deserve. 

P.S.  Sorry about the dual pronouns, but I wasn't sure which one was more suitable.

Quote from: broken. on September 18, 2013, 05:57:38 AM
I envy your not-care-i-ness.... like majorly, I guess I could get to that place if I didn't have so much stuff to do still in my transition.

I think it's something you really have to work at and it takes time. I was a little ball of crazy anxiety when I started transition 3 years ago. Yes, it helps when you hit certain milestones in transition, but it's also just a question of getting used to things... I dunno, being okay. After the sky consistently fails to fall for long enough, you can start to believe that maybe things will really work out.

And I really hope I'm not projecting too much onto you. I think we all run that risk as we look for commonalities (because it's nice to find commonalities). Feel free to tell me to buzz off if I'm being too pushy or anything. Last thing I want is to do to you the same crap that everyone else does to non-binaries.

Do you think maybe you could experiment with some form of detransition and see how it makes you feel? I'm not sure there is really any other way to know than to give it a shot and see what happens. I really wish Van/Vanna was still around. They seemed quite a bit like you and ended up deciding to live as a kind of femme agender--legally male and with a male name, but generally passes as female and stayed on low dose estrogen. If you look up "vannasiamese" you can read a bit about their experience. They are also an absolutely stunning model, fyi.


You know, I genuinely believe you will get this sorted out to your satisfaction and will be able to live your life happily. You are super young and bright. And you are actively trying to find solutions for yourself, which is damn awesome and indicates a good deal of strength of will. It's nice to just remind yourself sometimes that you are doing pretty well, and you can handle this stuff.

We have a lot in common broken (like GYLF better lol) but we also have a lot not in common. Mainly, it was very hard for me to live as a cis boy as I am tiny and feminine and got beat up a lot. It was horrid. But I'm lucky like you that my bone structure is already very femme.

But I have severe body dysphoria, and you don't you said, so our situations are different. Though I do have social dysphoria as well.

But I just don't think you should experiment with detransition at this point. I think about it time to time mainly after I get in a fight with the BF but it won't solve anything. I don't think it will for you either. If it's what you want, go for it. But realize, you will start to masculinze. It's dangerous path. Because you have never looked masculine and experience what comes along with it: being treated as male. Very male. That will trigger your social dysphoria.

I have a new job and my boss was treating me rather manly. And it was causing me much distress to the point where we had a meeting and I started crying. I couldn't help it. Long story short she treats me much better now and realizes how I want to be treated. I present male at work and it's horrid. After I get out of work and throw on some skinny jeans and a cute top it's like I was let out of prison. I know you too hate male clothing so imagine masculinzing and wearing that crap. That's why i think at the most maybe go on low dose HRT.

Maybe you're just going through a rough patch. I mean sometimes I think I should just be a femme gay man but really I love being a woman so much that detranstion just isn't an option for me. Our situations are different and I pretty much follow the classic trans narrative that people hate now because, well, I don't know why. It annoys me because it invalidates my experience. I would maybe just experiment with androgynous dress and see how that suits you. Ot go out as a boy, not just once, but for a week. Cut your hair boyishly. Sounds horrid already, right?

IDK. It's a hard question. Glad your back though! Missed you so much!

Here;s another thought that is kinda tangential to your question but may help you cement your identity and give you a sense of purpose and passion. My boss, I'm the assistant to the editor for a regional women's magazine, used to work for Vogue Knitting (she's awesome! I really admire her so much) and is all into knitting and sewing like you are. So have you ever though of starting a knitting or sewing blog and then perhaps trying to write freelance articles for a sewing publication. You're a really good writer and have a style I really enjoy reading so I think you'd be really good at it. You could start off slow or just test the waters with a blog and see how you like it. it would take time to do it but I feel like it would give you something to do that you are passionate about and very good at. You could maybe sell your stuff to on etsy and cross promote it on Pinterest. It's just an idea and soemthing to think about but in the long run I think it could give you a sense of identity.

I do know what it is like to lack a sense of identity and not fit in. When I became a women's magazine editor in 2004 it really helped give me a sense of identity that I never had. I also was dating a butch lesbian  at the time who accepted who I was so it was a great time for me. (she later decided she wanted a man and dumped me) But it wasn't as great as now though as I feel much more comfortable being with a man  (I have a BF now; transition has been very kind to me) and not having to fight over who will be the femme one in the relationship lol Plus im on hormones now. She wouldn't let me take them as she didn't want me to be too femme. I just presented kinda femme...okay that was kind of a tangent lol sorry

Quote from: Joanna Dark on September 22, 2013, 10:42:37 AM
Here;s another thought that is kinda tangential to your question but may help you cement your identity and give you a sense of purpose and passion. My boss, I'm the assistant to the editor for a regional women's magazine, used to work for Vogue Knitting (she's awesome! I really admire her so much) and is all into knitting and sewing like you are. So have you ever though of starting a knitting or sewing blog and then perhaps trying to write freelance articles for a sewing publication. You're a really good writer and have a style I really enjoy reading so I think you'd be really good at it. You could start off slow or just test the waters with a blog and see how you like it. it would take time to do it but I feel like it would give you something to do that you are passionate about and very good at. You could maybe sell your stuff to on etsy and cross promote it on Pinterest. It's just an idea and soemthing to think about but in the long run I think it could give you a sense of identity.

I do know what it is like to lack a sense of identity and not fit in. When I became a women's magazine editor in 2004 it really helped give me a sense of identity that I never had. I also was dating a butch lesbian  at the time who accepted who I was so it was a great time for me. (she later decided she wanted a man and dumped me) But it wasn't as great as now though as I feel much more comfortable being with a man  (I have a BF now; transition has been very kind to me) and not having to fight over who will be the femme one in the relationship lol Plus im on hormones now. She wouldn't let me take them as she didn't want me to be too femme. I just presented kinda femme...okay that was kind of a tangent lol sorry

I agree with Joanna about you starting a blog.  Personally, I've always admired your sense of style and enjoy your fashion tips.  You'd have a lot of insight to share, and I'd certainly follow it.  While that alone won't solve the gender issues, it's nice to have a sense of identity outside of being trans.  There is so much more to all of us than woman or man.   

Just know, "broken," that what path you decide is best for you, you have the unconditional love and support of your many friends here.  You really are family.  And you really are a wonderful person.