It is a little bit different for the non-binary members.

I mean to say, if you feel like you have more than one gender, or no gender at all, what binary body form would be a good fit?

My male self died a painful death, after living a painful life. I would not want to resurrect him.

Quote from: jamielikesyou on July 30, 2013, 07:03:06 PM
Voted no, hell no in fact

With a caveat that I'm speaking from my experience only and never for anyone else.

I don't feel like there is anything "wrong" with me that needs to be cured. I'm constantly evolving and changing. For me being trans isn't too far removed from other major life overhauls. I'm me, I'm a girl I just wasn't always biologically one.

I LIKE being female - I feel like I was born female - what I hate is being born in a misogynistic society where we are so disadvantaged - I would have lived very differently if I had been born a cis gendered womyn - would have been a very loud feminist

This question takes me back several years because my answer has changed. Back when I first realized that doing a transition was actually possible, I would have said yes without a doubt. The fact that I would say yes would also lead therapists to believe that I wasn't trans. Logically it really makes a lot of sense. Wouldn't the pain stop if I didn't know? But here's the thing. I am extremely resistant to brainwashing, which is sort of what this is. In fact when people try to brainwash me, like drill instructors, I get extremely agitated when I feel like it's working. At this point, I know I should be a woman and it really scares me to think I could believe otherwise, so my answer today is no.

Quote from: Jamie D on July 31, 2013, 12:41:25 AM
It is a little bit different for the non-binary members.

I mean to say, if you feel like you have more than one gender, or no gender at all, what binary body form would be a good fit?

Well, if the hypothetical treatment made you cis-gender in the body you were born with, you would no longer have more than one gender or no gender at all, right? Your current body would be a perfect fit. But the question remains, would you take a cure that made you no longer genderqueer?

As for me, like Vegie271, I like being a woman. It's thing I love the most about myself, the one thing about me I would never give up. I suppose that's why I'm transitioning.

That would not work for me as (personally) the root of this goes beyond just my body and/or mind. I know that it is my soul itself, my very essence of self, that is emphatically male and not just my mind or brain. There's no fixing a soul with pharmaceuticals. But I already have my cure (and by happy coincidence which is working for other, some would say 'legitimate', health and being specifically endocrine issues), it's T. It's not perfect and it can't change every little aspect of my body to make it 100% matching to my inherent gender by itself, but what it can and is doing is enough and that's really all I could ever have hoped for. My body actually is becoming mine at last in that it is feeling and becoming much less like that of a stranger's. Basically, I'm saying that even if something like this was remotely possible, that it wouldn't do anything except to cause more problems but just in a different way and through a different happenstance (again, for me personally). In fact, that precisely would not be too terribly unlike my starting position I already went through. So yeah, I just really and truly because of that can't imagine a remotely uh... realistic... alternate universe scenario where I'm feminine and female and happy. But with the same soul or self. It just couldn't be that way. And I wouldn't want to be someone else either, but that's precisely what that would in fact be doing (in order to work, if it even could, I mean). IMO, that kind of defeats the entire point...

Its interesting to see so many people say no because it would change who you are as a person.  Don't hormones do that as well?  Many people talk about how your brain feminizes on estrogen, it changes your thinking patterns, some even "change" sexual orientation (not looking to argue whether this is "actual change" or "just acceptance of what has always been there")  But then some argue that it isn't changing who they are its helping them become who they are.  Anyone have any thoughts on this aspect?

Quote from: Anonymous User on September 23, 2013, 01:12:37 AM
Its interesting to see so many people say no because it would change who you are as a person.  Don't hormones do that as well?  Many people talk about how your brain feminizes on estrogen, it changes your thinking patterns, some even "change" sexual orientation (not looking to argue whether this is "actual change" or "just acceptance of what has always been there")  But then some argue that it isn't changing who they are its helping them become who they are.  Anyone have any thoughts on this aspect?

Because those changes aren't to actual self. They are changes in behavior. The two are not mutually exclusive. But in my personal experience, T has not changed me much in that sense. For me it has been much more physical or visual. I'm the same person I always was (in other words, whether or not I had chosen to medically transition I was and still would otherwise be male), just with a few (see, not total or even a lot of) differences in behavior than before (e.g. T does in fact make you more... randy). Its just a matter of now being able to see that in the mirror. To have other people finally able to see that and recognize it, and treat/respond to me the way I should be (most people just can't look far enough past the physical to see the person behind all of that. I found that to be my biggest hurtle before T. I especially got sick and tired of being read incorrectly as 'butch' or 'lesbian'... because I'm not, in any sense). I haven't changed but my body has and that's really the entire point of the medical transition (or so I feel).

Now as to that tidbit about estrogen feminizing the brain or I take that to be in behavior or self... we FTM's are kind of the proof that isn't quite the case, or at least that it isn't a rigid rule or truth. I was never feminine. Physically (obviously), yes. But not in any other way. Not even behaviorally (in fact, my otherwise perfectly acceptable and expected masculine behaviors as a child landed me in the 'emotionally disturbed' school program because I was acting contrary to the 'gender binary' of female and people misread that as 'troubled'. I really was even then just a typical boy. So I got punished for the same behaviors that are natural to young boys because to their purview, I wasn't and that just wasn't okay and blah blah blah). I never went through the phase of trying to be feminine or female as some do (and I'm not bragging about it or trying to grand-stand, but that is a fact and relevant to this portion of the discussion).

But this is all in my perspective and personal experience. It is different for each of us. While I feel this way and have had this experience, other's may be very different. That's fine. It's just the way it is.

Quote from: Anonymous User on September 23, 2013, 01:12:37 AM
Its interesting to see so many people say no because it would change who you are as a person.  Don't hormones do that as well?  Many people talk about how your brain feminizes on estrogen, it changes your thinking patterns, some even "change" sexual orientation (not looking to argue whether this is "actual change" or "just acceptance of what has always been there")  But then some argue that it isn't changing who they are its helping them become who they are.  Anyone have any thoughts on this aspect?

Well, if you ask me... it's like there's a two-layered thing going on in the mind. There's an internal "identity" part that tells you what you should be feeling and experiencing, and then a more conscious level where feelings and experiences actually happen. Hormones change this external part. At least to some degree, they change how you feel about things, and how you react to things, and how you perceive the world. What they don't change is the internal part, the core identity that tells you what you should be feeling and experiencing. Almost like there's a "map" inside your mind telling you how the neurons and chemicals should all be firing, and then there's what the actual neurons and chemicals really do.

Hormones aren't as scary. Because with me, my internal "map" said that I should be feeling sadder, or I should be feeling happier but for some reason I wasn't, or that the anger I was feeling was wrong... things like that. Hormones changed those experiences to much more closely resemble the ones that my mind was "expecting" to feel. And thus they feel "right" to me even though they are definitely WAY different than the way my mind used to work.

This question of changing you into a cisgender person, though, isn't just changing the external level, it's changing the very map itself. So the things that you would expect to feel would change, and the way you feel that you should be acting would change. And that's a scary prospect. It feels like it wouldn't be me anymore. From our perspective, our internal identity never consciously changes, even from when we were children. I can still look back at how I behaved as a kid and still say "yep, that was me" even though I don't think like that anymore at a conscious level. So the prospect of changing that internal self-identity really feels scary, because it seriously feels like I wouldn't be the same person anymore on a core level.

Quote from: Carrie Liz on September 23, 2013, 03:09:48 AM
Well, if you ask me... it's like there's a two-layered thing going on in the mind. There's an internal "identity" part that tells you what you should be feeling and experiencing, and then a more conscious level where feelings and experiences actually happen. Hormones change this external part. At least to some degree, they change how you feel about things, and how you react to things, and how you perceive the world. What they don't change is the internal part, the core identity that tells you what you should be feeling and experiencing. Almost like there's a "map" inside your mind telling you how the neurons and chemicals should all be firing, and then there's what the actual neurons and chemicals really do.

Hormones aren't as scary. Because with me, my internal "map" said that I should be feeling sadder, or I should be feeling happier but for some reason I wasn't, or that the anger I was feeling was wrong... things like that. Hormones changed those experiences to much more closely resemble the ones that my mind was "expecting" to feel. And thus they feel "right" to me even though they are definitely WAY different than the way my mind used to work.

This question of changing you into a cisgender person, though, isn't just changing the external level, it's changing the very map itself. So the things that you would expect to feel would change, and the way you feel that you should be acting would change. And that's a scary prospect. It feels like it wouldn't be me anymore. From our perspective, our internal identity never consciously changes, even from when we were children. I can still look back at how I behaved as a kid and still say "yep, that was me" even though I don't think like that anymore at a conscious level. So the prospect of changing that internal self-identity really feels scary, because it seriously feels like I wouldn't be the same person anymore on a core level.

Very good answer.  It makes me feel much better about the prospect of taking hormones myself.  Thank you for responding.

My answer to the original question was no, but I was also very apprehensive about taking hormones even if they were going to make me happier about myself.

Quote from: Anonymous User on September 23, 2013, 01:12:37 AM
Its interesting to see so many people say no because it would change who you are as a person.  Don't hormones do that as well? 

I wanted to answer a similar question you posted on another thread but it got locked before I got there.

Hormones don't change you, they change your body. They change a lot of the signals your body sends to your brain. You experience events and sensory input differently.

They don't change how you process those signals. You'll remain completely yourself. You'll smell things you didn't smell before, your body will feel differently. Cute things will seem more cute, violent things will seem more violent. Your sexual response will be different, as will your response to chocolate. But you will continue deal with these sensation the way you've always dealt with similar situations, because you will still be you.

Quote from: suzifrommd on September 23, 2013, 06:32:02 AM
I wanted to answer a similar question you posted on another thread but it got locked before I got there.

Hormones don't change you, they change your body. They change a lot of the signals your body sends to your brain. You experience events and sensory input differently.

They don't change how you process those signals. You'll remain completely yourself. You'll smell things you didn't smell before, your body will feel differently. Cute things will seem more cute, violent things will seem more violent. Your sexual response will be different, as will your response to chocolate. But you will continue deal with these sensation the way you've always dealt with similar situations, because you will still be you.

Is it really only signal processing changes, though? With plummeting T the aggressive tendencies and libido change.  This is not a sensory perception change, but a real signal processing change. Even after just a week on HRT I felt changes.

Quote from: Antonia J on September 23, 2013, 12:19:00 PM
Is it really only signal processing changes, though? With plummeting T the aggressive tendencies and libido change.  This is not a sensory perception change, but a real signal processing change. Even after just a week on HRT I felt changes.

Well, take the libido, for example. I no longer have my body telling me I want to be sexually stimulated.

But am I still interested in sex? Definitely (I'm just not sure who with or how I'd do it). Am I still interested in getting my O a few times a week? Yep. The signals have changed but the person stays the same.

At least in my experience.

Quote from: suzifrommd on September 23, 2013, 12:30:30 PM
Well, take the libido, for example. I no longer have my body telling me I want to be sexually stimulated.

But am I still interested in sex? Definitely (I'm just not sure who with or how I'd do it). Am I still interested in getting my O a few times a week? Yep. The signals have changed but the person stays the same.

At least in my experience.

Perhaps it is a chicken or egg discussion. Did your perception of sex change as a result of physiological changes in your brain chemistry (i.e. hormones change who you are), or were the mental changes independent and a function of accepting the physical changes.  I think it is both, but it is an interesting thought exercise either way.

This is hard. On the one hand, I would refuse to stop being myself despite all of my flaws.  On the other, I would love it if I could have been born as a genetic female.   But if I lose my sense of self, it isn't me.  As much as I would hate to turn down the hypothetical possibility of being a cisgender female, I guess I have to. 

Can we compromise and allow me to just switch bodies with a genetic female?  Though, even that sounds a bit creepy when I read it back,lol.

Quote from: Antonia J on September 23, 2013, 01:15:25 PM
Perhaps it is a chicken or egg discussion. Did your perception of sex change as a result of physiological changes in your brain chemistry (i.e. hormones change who you are), or were the mental changes independent and a function of accepting the physical changes. 

My interest in sex has not changed.

However my physical libido, that physical need to be stimulated sexually, changed dramatically after starting anti-androgens.

I would do it in a heartbeat. Being a man is much easier than being a woman. The only thing I'm torn in is that all my facilities and skills are good for girls and not guys....

That and coming to work the next day would suck for me lol

No, because being the way I am makes me appreciate both sides.  I can understand how a boy's brain works to a certain extent, as well as a girl.

No. It'd feel like I wasn't staying true to myself.