Oh course hunny  . I would never post anything related to another without their permission first.

Paige, is there a reason you're looking to get approval from your therapist? Yeson doesn't require a letter from a therapist or anything like that (like with SRS). Is this just so she can stay up-to-date on everything you're doing with your transition?

That and as she's done so much for me with my transition so far I want her to have support in this decision as well as I feel if I go through with this surgery even when she's against it it will cause damage within our relationship.

Quote from: Paige0000 on September 23, 2013, 05:49:19 PM
That and as she's done so much for me with my transition so far I want her to have support in this decision as well as I feel if I go through with this surgery even when she's against it it will cause damage within our relationship.

That makes sense to a degree. However, I'm curious how it would affect you if she does not end up approving of it yet you still feel like it's something you want? It's important to have support, and it sounds like she provides that, but it's also important that you feel comfortable with yourself. I'm not trying to advocate for or against the surgery, just curious.

Abby/Jenny, I assume you flew into Gimpo International Airport, is that right? I'm looking at flights right now and there are two airports from what I can see. Gimpo looks like it's the closer one in Google Maps, but I want to make sure I'm getting it right (since everything is mostly in Korean).

Also, any recommendations on the hotel? I've found a few that are relatively close to Yeson, but some are across the river whereas others aren't. Is getting around tricky at all? Is the area somewhere where I would feel comfortable walking from my hotel to the clinic?

Quote from: SarahR on September 23, 2013, 07:24:23 PM
Abby/Jenny, I assume you flew into Gimpo International Airport, is that right? I'm looking at flights right now and there are two airports from what I can see. Gimpo looks like it's the closer one in Google Maps, but I want to make sure I'm getting it right (since everything is mostly in Korean).

Also, any recommendations on the hotel? I've found a few that are relatively close to Yeson, but some are across the river whereas others aren't. Is getting around tricky at all? Is the area somewhere where I would feel comfortable walking from my hotel to the clinic?

Gimpo is actually the older/smaller airport that is mostly used for domestic flights within Korea. You will be flying into Incheon. As long as the flight arrives and departs during the week and between 9-5 the surgery center will pick you up and drop you off for free.

As far as hotels go, I stayed at Gangnam Artnouveau City II (http://www.tripadvisor.com/Hotel_Review-g294197-d1643621-Reviews-Gangnam_Artnouveau_City_II-Seoul.html). It was an AMAZING hotel for the price. The rooms are big, and have a kitchenette with rice cooker, microwave, stovetop, and full size fridge/freezer. They also have a washer/dryer unit in each hotel room, which was awesome. The hotel is a 5 minute walk from the Gangnam Station subway stop, which is very very convenient. Lots of restaurants and lots of shopping are close by, but being in Gangnam you are a little bit far from most of the tourist stuff. Still, it was easy for me to get to Insadong or Meyongdong from the hotel, because the subway system is really easy to use and has English throughout the stations/cars.

The hotel I linked was about a 15 minute cab ride (depending on traffic, once it took about 30 minutes) to Yeson. Cabs are pretty cheap in Seoul, and tipping is not done, so depending on traffic the cab rides were anywhere from $8-$10 each way.

You might want to pm Kathyp to see where she stayed though - if I recall correctly she actually rented an apartment for a very reasonable rate that was close to Yeson.

Edit: To answer your question, Seoul is an incredibly safe city, the Gangnam district even moreso. I never felt the least bit uneasy or unsafe the entire time I was there, and I was alone the whole time. The weirdest part was I didn't even see any police officers during my entire trip except for the parts of the tour that went to/near government buildings.

Quote from: abbyt89 on September 23, 2013, 08:04:23 PM
Gimpo is actually the older/smaller airport that is mostly used for domestic flights within Korea. You will be flying into Incheon. As long as the flight arrives and departs during the week and between 9-5 the surgery center will pick you up and drop you off for free.

As far as hotels go, I stayed at Gangnam Artnouveau City II (http://www.tripadvisor.com/Hotel_Review-g294197-d1643621-Reviews-Gangnam_Artnouveau_City_II-Seoul.html). It was an AMAZING hotel for the price. The rooms are big, and have a kitchenette with rice cooker, microwave, stovetop, and full size fridge/freezer. They also have a washer/dryer unit in each hotel room, which was awesome. The hotel is a 5 minute walk from the Gangnam Station subway stop, which is very very convenient. Lots of restaurants and lots of shopping are close by, but being in Gangnam you are a little bit far from most of the tourist stuff. Still, it was easy for me to get to Insadong or Meyongdong from the hotel, because the subway system is really easy to use and has English throughout the stations/cars.

The hotel I linked was about a 15 minute cab ride (depending on traffic, once it took about 30 minutes) to Yeson. Cabs are pretty cheap in Seoul, and tipping is not done, so depending on traffic the cab rides were anywhere from $8-$10 each way.

You might want to pm Kathyp to see where she stayed though - if I recall correctly she actually rented an apartment for a very reasonable rate that was close to Yeson.

Edit: To answer your question, Seoul is an incredibly safe city, the Gangnam district even moreso. I never felt the least bit uneasy or unsafe the entire time I was there, and I was alone the whole time. The weirdest part was I didn't even see any police officers during my entire trip except for the parts of the tour that went to/near government buildings.

Great info! Thanks!

And you're right, I'm going to be flying into the Incheon airport. It was cheaper anyways (likely because it's the bigger, more modern one).

Got my reply and it looks like she is starting to warm up to the idea which is great, I won't doubt your wonderful video had a say in it too Jen 

Hello Paige



Bring the information to the next session and we will discuss it. Do not book any surery.



Thanks.



Tracie

Sounds like she is still not very fond of it at all, I think. Essentially what she wants to do is to not do this via email and rather talk to you about why you want this and look you in the eye and then maybe try to talk you out of it. But well - this is a topic that if it is to be discussed in therapy, it has to be discussed face to face and not with email. Its too big of a step to just email about it. Lets see what you can report once you have been there with her.

Quote from: anjaq on September 24, 2013, 01:14:42 AM
Sounds like she is still not very fond of it at all, I think. Essentially what she wants to do is to not do this via email and rather talk to you about why you want this and look you in the eye and then maybe try to talk you out of it. But well - this is a topic that if it is to be discussed in therapy, it has to be discussed face to face and not with email. Its too big of a step to just email about it. Lets see what you can report once you have been there with her.

Yeah that's probably true, I've always been a very optimistic person so my views of this tend to be more hopeful then the norm lol. Oh well at least she's willing to talk about it because I'm very much set in mind to pursue this surgery so even if she remains against it at least she'll be able understand that if worst came to worst, the surgery is reversible. She may not like it but as long as she comes to respect my decision to pursue it that's all I care about.   

I have to second what SarahR is saying about therapists. Initially, I had told my therapist about the Yeson procedure- kind of semi-asking for her approval. She shook her head and smiled at me saying the my voice is (was) lovely and she didn't want me to lose that- mainly because she had heard so many not so successful VFS results and that my voice is a big part of who I am. In her eyes, it was not worth the risk.

That was about the time that I inadvertently took a break from seeing my therapist and decided to go through with the surgery. The next time I saw her (at a local LGBTQ event), I was about 6 weeks post-op. She was busy at the event so she couldn't really talk, and I still couldn't really talk loud enough anyway.. but she did hear my voice and gave me a big hug. It wasn't until just the other week that I saw her again, and at that point I was almost 4 months post-op. She was floored with how my voice sounded and took down every bit of information about Yeson... saying that I have made leaps and bounds in my transition since she last saw me. We both agreed that a large part was due to voice and the effect it has on every aspect of life.

This surgery has been the biggest catalyst for me so far. I can't even imagine going back to having my old voice. Noooo way

Chances are your therapist is well knowledged on previous surgeries like CTA and other risky vocal procedures that are generally not recommended- unless you are willing to roll the dice. This new method hasn't been offered or popularized enough for the vast majority of people to know about it yet, and it carries the large reputational burden from all the old procedures. For some reason, I think we will generally have a hard time convincing therapists that Yeson is a good idea... But perhaps that will change quicker if the good word spreads fast and people share their results.

Quote from: Jennygirl on September 24, 2013, 03:59:12 AM
I have to second what SarahR is saying about therapists. Initially, I had told my therapist about the Yeson procedure- kind of semi-asking for her approval. She shook her head and smiled at me saying the my voice is (was) lovely and she didn't want me to lose that- mainly because she had heard so many not so successful VFS results and that my voice is a big part of who I am. In her eyes, it was not worth the risk.

That was about the time that I inadvertently took a break from seeing my therapist and decided to go through with the surgery. The next time I saw her (at a local LGBTQ event), I was about 6 weeks post-op. She was busy at the event so she couldn't really talk, and I still couldn't really talk loud enough anyway.. but she did hear my voice and gave me a big hug. It wasn't until just the other week that I saw her again, and at that point I was almost 4 months post-op. She was floored with how my voice sounded and took down every bit of information about Yeson... saying that I have made leaps and bounds in my transition since she last saw me. We both agreed that a large part was due to voice and the effect it has on every aspect of life.

This surgery has been the biggest catalyst for me so far. I can't even imagine going back to having my old voice. Noooo way

Chances are your therapist is well knowledged on previous surgeries like CTA and other risky vocal procedures that are generally not recommended- unless you are willing to roll the dice. This new method hasn't been offered or popularized enough for the vast majority of people to know about it yet, and it carries the large reputational burden from all the old procedures. For some reason, I think we will generally have a hard time convincing therapists that Yeson is a good idea... But perhaps that will change quicker if the good word spreads fast and people share their results.

i don't understand why many of your use/asq your therapist for every single thing you wanna do. Just do what you wanna do. is it obligatory in USA that all transsexuals need a therapist's consent to do every single move in your transition? they sound annoying to have. thx god in my country they are not compulsory.

Well as I see it, one enters in a trusting relationship with a therapist, ideally. If that is the case, one naturally wants to work together and not in opposition. Of course in the end, one has to make ones own decisions even if she does disapprove, but I understand that this is harder - if only because she may be less inclined to help in case something does develop that is not ideal as a result of such a decision. I think it is ok if someone is as strong and energetic to pull through everything by herself but not everyone is such a "self made person" naturally and thus benefits from someone to talk to and work together. I could not have done transition without  avery close friend of mine. She was my therapist in a way as I did not like any of the gender therapists that I had and basically just went there as a duty. And a major reason why I did not do any VFS back then was that my friend disapproved strongly to it with the same arguments just mentioned, that I would certainly loose the quality and beauty of my voice, that it may actually even go wrong, that my voice is also part of my personality and by changing it through surgery I would loose in a way the coherence of my personality and voice. Stuff like that. So I did not do it and pulled through the past 15 years without it, ever now and then getting weird looks or comments because of the voice, so in hindsight I think I was maybe a bit too much influenced as well - OTOH at that time in 2002 there was not many good options openly available and the only one I met I did not like too much and actually it was as a result of a similar procedure. (To be fair, I heard her in the weeks post op when the voice is far from healed and then did not meet her again - plus I was maybe just not used to the pitch she then had - I found it to be too high for her in terms of age, maturity, the rest of the body and personality). What I am a bit sorry about is that I did drop out of all things trans in the years after and did not keep up to date with improved procedures, otherwise that question may have come up earlier.

Paige, you are of course right in that it is a good thing she wants to talk and not just denies that possibility at all. In any case it is good to talk in person about such a thing as then she can raise her concerns and you can present what you know and then maybe some misconceptions will be cleared. I would advise you to get well informed - not just for your therapist but as always things  you do for tha therapist often benefit yourself and in this case it would benefit you to get really well informed and not just via Susans or the Yeson website, so you can maybe also reply to some questions she may have about shortcomings.

One thing I wonder - you said the procedure is completely reversible - is that true? I cannot imagine that. I can imagine that yes you can get the pitch back lower if you would like that (why?) but I think your voice would sound very different after such a second reversed surgery and probably not as clear as before any procedure as there are scars and all that. So I would not really call this completely reversible, but I did not read tha tup. Have you read that up? Did you hear to examples of reversals or have statements of people who did that? Otherwise mentioning reversal may actually be a mute point...

Yeson's procedure is not reversible at all, they remove a small mucous membrane at the commissure of the vocal cords and that is where they suture it. It then heals over the 2 sutures and there is no way to get the old length back. You can't just remove something and have your old longer vocal cord length back. It's permanent

Sarahhhhhhhh! I logged in to the forums for the first time in a long time and look! A post by you I hope you get what you are looking for from this surgery. It's funny, remember sitting in my bedroom in Orange County in my apartment after I moved out of the house and practicing voice together? That was six years ago probably close to the exact month. I hope life is going well and you and T are doing well Meghan (aka...you know, lol)

Quote from: Jennygirl on September 25, 2013, 03:30:10 AM
Yeson's procedure is not reversible at all, they remove a small mucous membrane at the commissure of the vocal cords and that is where they suture it. It then heals over the 2 sutures and there is no way to get the old length back. You can't just remove something and have your old longer vocal cord length back. It's permanent

Hmm it's strange. I certainly didn't see anything referring to the surgery be reversible whilst doing more researching on it last night either. Yet I feel a while back I certainly read that it was a ?  Maybe my mind was playing tricks on me hmm weird?

Quote from: MeghanAndrews on September 25, 2013, 04:09:54 AM
Sarahhhhhhhh! I logged in to the forums for the first time in a long time and look! A post by you I hope you get what you are looking for from this surgery. It's funny, remember sitting in my bedroom in Orange County in my apartment after I moved out of the house and practicing voice together? That was six years ago probably close to the exact month. I hope life is going well and you and T are doing well Meghan (aka...you know, lol)

Hey Meghan! It's been too long! I do remember that, lol. How time flies! It's great to hear from you, really!

You know, I wasn't even ever considering this type of surgery in the least, mainly due to all the bad results I've heard from other techniques. But I happened upon Jenny's YouTube video and was blown away. My voice isn't the worst to be honest, it's just really inconsistent, feels forced and fake to me, which causes me to have to think before every word I say and is the main reason I'm getting this surgery done. I'm so done with feeling "trans" and the voice is the only thing holding me back from really just living.

I totall can relate - again, Sarah. Like today - the day was starting good, my voice was allright (it never really is great but its ok). Then we went with a group to visit some intersting sightseeing stuff and had some lunch with wine and conversation - I already noticed that because I talked so much my voice was a bit inconsistent and the wine did not help. Then there was more sightseeing and for dinner there was a wine tasting, lots of wine and I got a bit drunk. And again lots of conversation in english (foreign language for me). I noticed that I just could not keep it up, that I lost it here and there, especially when I was making emotional responses instead of thoughtful conversation. My pitch probably was in a good gender neutral range on average but trailed up and down a lot, probably way into the male range at times. Resonance was also not always great. So I guess with some more training I would get better conscious control over that, but I doubt that I can stay focus after half a bottle of wine when doing an emotional response.
I remember Abby posted in the other thread that she also had rather low umms and hmms even post VFS so emotional or non-thoughtful resonses seem to happen more likely without control.

One thing I am interested - if you loose resonance control but not pitch (as pitch is taken care of by the surgery), does it sound too odd for people to nitice something is off? I mean does it sound sort of like a low falsetto or anything? After all thats what peopl ekeep saying that if you raise pitch without resonance control you end up with a fake sounding voice like a falsetto and hence the importance of resonance control in voice therapy. In your recent recording, Abby, I dont think it sounds like that at all even though you say you "dont control resonance much", so I kind of hope that at least fleeting moments of loosing resonance may not be noted when pitch is ok???

I think I read that stuff on the reversibility as well somewhere. I found it odd. Maybe in some way it is, if you actually open up the suture and let the vocal cords heal at that part, but that certainly will not result in a really good voice, more like the bad results of the other surgeries that I heard of. Scars on 1/3 of the vocal cord and mucous membranes missing there cannot sound that nice, I imagine. But maybe they can fix it with more work in some way. Who knows.

So after that day with wine and all I had a tear or two on the way back, feeling that strange pull towards something that I may not like but that may be happening anyways. It feels a bit like the whole other things about transition. Like there is something that is hurtful or dangerous or expensive or may lead to some losses, but you still feel like the chances you doing it increase all the time. Maybe you know that feeling. Its a bit feeling like predetermination. I dont know if it is that for me now already, but it nags at me that I may have to do this eventually to be at peace and not feel "trans" whenever I am talking :s

Yeah, anjaq, it's those situations that I can't quite control that my voice goes haywire: coughing, yelling, laughing (which I rarely do with any sound at all anymore), etc. It's not enough to be able to get a passable voice in controlled, or quiet, or very specific times. I'd rather never have to think about my voice, in any situation. That is why this procedure is so appealing. I'd like to say I have resonance down pretty well, it's just controlling the pitch that I find difficult to keep stable and consistent in certain situations.

Also an update, I booked my flight! Woohoo! I'll be flying into Incheon International Airport on that Sunday afternoon (South Korean time) and leaving in the evening on the second Wednesday after that (10 days later). I have my first consultation on Monday, November 11th, the surgery on Tuesday, and the follow-up on the next Tuesday. Now I just need to book a hotel. I've been looking through the ones Yeson suggested, as well as others in that area, but haven't decided on one yet. I'll probably be booking the hotel in the next couple of days. After that it's just a waiting game.

I'm also wondering what I want to do to fill my time while I'm there for 10 days. I'm going to take the advice I saw in the other thread and try to book the free tour early on so I can use that as a guide to see the places I might like to return to throughout the week. Other than that I guess I'll just have to wait until I get to there to really figure out what I want to do.

44 days and counting until I leave!

Yes, thats what gets me - my reasons line up. Aw what a thing - another surgery 13 years post-op? Geez. On the upside of it I have found that it seems that I even can get insurance cover for it, if I can prove that I need it. Probably that takes therapy or such again and I will have to do voice training first or something like that. Maybe I even need some letters of referral. I dont know. But it seems that if I really would aim for that, and I am absolutely not sure about that yet though it all sounds soooo tempting, I may with some effort get it without payment. On the downside, they most certainly will not pay for surgery in Korea, but in Berlin - the one that Lena mentioned who does this since 1999. He wrote a paper on this, I started a new thread on it here: https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,149695.msg1239523.html#msg1239523


I have no way as of now to check his success rate though. There is no promotional website for this and I am still looking for a local TG forum that has good people talking about TS in it and less about crossdressing and such. If he is good and successful and insurance can pay for it, I am feeling that I actually consider it. But research first....

EDIT: Oh wow, seems there is a second surgeon in Germany doing the same thing in Stuttgart. I get the impression thei method is rather widespread already and not at all unique to Yeson!