Deuteronomy 23:1 "No one whose testicles are crushed or whose male organ is cut off shall enter the assembly of the LORD."

So, basically, if i get my penis removed, I'm going to Hell, right?

First off, there's this certain catholic person who tried to convince me that there is no reincarnation whatsoever. I joined Christianity because of him! To cut the long story short, we've been exchanging e-mails back n fourth about both our transgender stuff. In his teachings, he's tried to convince me that transitioning is a moral sin, to remove or mutilate a perfectly functioning organ that God gave me is singing a one-way ticket to an eternity in hell, basing this all on the Bible verse above.

He also went on about this other Bible verse that said men should die once, and be judged. He meant for that to mean that once i pass from this life, it's either Heaven or Hell... no reincarnation.

We're not talking anymore because....well....words were exchanged, arguements were had, and i left the Christianity because i don't and refuse to agree with the teachings.

The way i see it -- if God so badly wanted me to be a man, and keep my male body He would've/should've made me a cis-male.

I just feel that transitioning is my destiny and that it's either i spend thousands of dollars on transition or i spend hundreds of dollars on a firearm and blow my brains out. And I'm certain there are consequences for suicide in the afterlife (Hell?).

I never wanted to be a man, anyway. I never did. I wouldn't be a man for all the money in the world.

I remember being as young as 9 when i would try to invert my male organ into a neo-vagina. Of course i'd fail. I've always wanted a vagina.

Maybe Christianity believes that there is no reincarnating, but there are others that otherwise do. I don't follow any religion. Womanhood is my religion, first and foremost. I'd like to believe there are more earthly lives, that the believe that you get just one life on earth, be judged and go to either Heaven or  is a bunch of balogna (LOL, haven't heard or said that one in a minute!).

And even if that were and irrefutable fact, i'd also like to believe that a loving God wouldn't cast transsexuals to Hell for changing their bodies to suit their comfort (yes, i believe there is a God). I just can't see that.

Like i said, i don't follow a religion but i do believe there is a God, a Heaven, and a Hell. But maybe there is that if i do remove my penis i do come back reincarnated afterall, i just won't go to Heaven. I really hope that's the case.

I had been praying about this, and that i won't be damned for this because again this feels like something i gotta do! I also wanted you guys' input on this, particularly from those of you who follow religion, especially Christianity.

Hey! If i remove my junk, i should be able to fit my underwear a bit better! (pun intended)

Hi! I don't mean to be flippant, but as a FTM and an atheist for full disclosure, you'll be fine for the following reasons:

1) Observing how many if not all Christians read the bible, inasmuch as cherrypicking exactly as it suits them, regarding everything from divorce to wearing fibers to eating shellfish, I'd say you can just ignore that verse and be confident you're doing just exactly no better or worse than your neighbor who got a divorce.

2) SRS does not crush your testicles; they are removed surgically. Along those lines, your penis is not cut off. It is physically rearranged into a new form, but it is most certainly not cut off.

SO, go forth, be happy and feel blessed! 

If you only live once, it's best to live that life in the way that you desire.
Don't be afraid to follow your own heart.
And, well- if we're all going to hell for this, at least rest well knowing that you'll be in great company!

We're talking Old Testament here. Which means that, first of all, it's not talking about church or heaven as we know it, it's talking about the assembly of Israel. Second of all, just look at the list of other people who are not allowed into this "congregation..." people of illegitimate birth (for TEN generations, for God's sake,) any who were born partially of Moabite or Ammonite descent (again, to the TENTH generation,) plus people born partially of Edomite or Egyptian descent up to the third generation.

Seeing as how we're not Jews, not of Israeli descent, and we're not in the temple periods of Israel anymore, this really does not apply to us.

In the Old Testament, certain things made you "unclean" and "impure" and therefore not worthy of entering the presence of God. Only those of pure birth, pure body, pure deeds, and born into the promise of Abraham, were allowed to enter into the presence of God. In the New Testament, EVERYONE who accepts the death of Christ as an atonement for their sins has been forgiven. And therefore everyone is made completely clean, and completely forgiven, and thus everyone can now enter the presence of God, because His Spirit was poured out on all flesh, so that ALL could come to know the will of God, rather than just a select few.

If you don't believe me, read Hebrews 10:19-22. It says that by the blood of Jesus, we have the confidence to enter the Most Holy Place. Do you know what that was? The Most Holy Place was the innermost sanctuary of the temple in Judaism. It was where the Ark of the Covenant was. The ONLY person who was allowed in there was the high priest, once a year, to offer the sacrifice of the people. It was said that anyone who entered into the presence of the Lord there with any impurity whatsoever would die. And yet now in the New Testament, it is claimed that "we" have the confidence to enter that Most Holy Place by the blood of Christ. That is one hell of a bold statement. It means that everyone is now clean enough to enter not only into the congregation, but into the Most Holy Place where only one person was allowed before. But it just goes to show the difference between the Torah of Judaism in the Old Testament and the Gospel of Christ in the New Testament.

And hell, if that's not enough for you, then just consider the story of the Ethiopian eunuch in Acts 8. He is baptized into the congregation.

I'm not saying that you should ignore your own conscience and just do it all willy-nilly. One of the other fundamentals of Christianity is that everyone speaks to the Spirit of God individually, and is held accountable according to their own conscience. I myself got this answer when I asked about it, and therefore I'm not going to have any qualms about doing it. (Except maybe thinking about how many other people I could have helped with the money that it's going to cost.) But you follow your own conscience. I'm just trying to open up the option to you so that you don't automatically assume that it's wrong.

( my opinion on the verse is not intended to offend anyone, I respect your beliefs and am just depicting the verse to the best of my knowledge )

That being said, there are two possibilities:

1) This verse is condemning eunuchs.
2) This verse is condemning transsexualism.

I believe the verse to be applying to #1. Here's why:

It was common practice among non-Jewish tribes to practice making eunuchs as part of their pagan ceremonies. God wanted His people to follow His law, and not pagan practices. This is most likely why it was condemned. If this verse was condemning transsexualism, it would have used a different approach, because this verse would only apply to MtF transsexuals. Which contradicts those who use this verse to try and condemn transsexuals as FtMs would get off scott free So hopefully that helps a bit.

Also keep in mind, this verse is in the Old Testament, and therefore old law. This means it only applied to the ancient nation of Israel. Christs death created a new covenant between God and man and therefore we follow the Gospel ( New Testament ) and not old law. If you weren't aware of this, this article may be able to explain it to you: http://thywordistruth.wordpress.com/2006/12/01/has-the-old-testament-%E2%80%9Claw%E2%80%9D-been-abolished/

That being said, this verse lost it's condemning value the moment Christ was resurrected.

Since I believe it to be condemning eunuchs I am going to continue this a little further by saying that being a eunuch is no longer a sin. ( the first gentile to accept Christ was a eunuch! )

Matthew 19:11-12 ----> Jesus replied, "Not everyone can accept this word, but only those to whom it has been given. For there are eunuchs who were born that way from their mother's womb; and there are eunuchs who were made eunuchs by men; and there are also eunuchs who made themselves eunuchs for the sake of the kingdom of heaven. He who is able to accept this, let him accept it."


Some other verses you might want to know and/or mention to your Catholic friend:

For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast." --Ephesians 2:8-9

I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain." --Galatians 2:21 ( this one is extremely important because it is saying that no person can perfectly follow the old law, and therefore Christ would have died for nothing if the old law was still used as the judgement template )

For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son, that whosoever believes in him should not perish but have everlasting life. For God sent the Son into the world, not to condemn the world, but that the world might be saved through him. He (She) who believes in him is not condemned; he who does not believe is condemned already because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God." --John 3:16-18


I hope this clears up any worries/doubts you have about this verse. If you have any other questions about it, let me know

Quote from: AnnaiyahStarr on September 28, 2013, 11:53:26 PM
Deuteronomy 23:1 "No one whose testicles are crushed or whose male organ is cut off shall enter the assembly of the LORD."

So, basically, if i get my penis removed, I'm going to Hell, right?

Nope.  In SRS your penis tissue is largely re-shaped and used in a different way.

I know of one transwoman, a veterinarian, who retained her testicles tucked up in the inguinal canal.

Hi,

Short & sweet,

Lets set the record straight first, its a record of what. who when and where..you getting the detail now,

And by who to whom.

who were the people it refered to

Why was it given to them  are any alive today... hmmm dont think so. so that being the case. it does ...NOT... apply to you or me or any one else,

Read the bible as its intended and for the reason it was given, well its a history of what happed not happening now ,

The problem is certian people take what they wont from the bible & use it for there own gain,  power bondage slavery mind control & so on ...... & no you wont go to (( a place )) of no return  our spirits will return to the one who gave them, have no fear,

As to the body detail again have no fear of surgery, its not an issue if a body part is removed that is all it is no more no less, dont listen to those who use mind control to put fear into your mind,

...noeleena...

I was a firm believer who studied hard and learned all I could. Now though I am put off by the attitudes of the modern believer and had to step back a little and take a good, hard look at the whole thing. I did not like what I saw. First the hypocrisy was almost laughable. Those that sat in the first few rows week after week were the first to conduct shady business deals on Monday. Those that taught obviously did not listen to themselves as they were the first to judge and then gossip. The elders were leaving in droves, forced out by the new age services and music. The new believers never accepted or asked for the council or advice of the elders and disrespected them merely for being aged. What does this have to do with the topic? I feel that my own transition is not evil since I have thought of myself as female since my earliest memories without any outside input or witnessed activity controlling that decision. I don't know why God made me this way, but he did make me. I am proceeding and he will judge me or not, but the human church is not going to decide for me. I believe John 3:16-18 and I have put my trust in that promise. I am doing what my body, mind and belief system says is right. God did not make us perfect, so don't let imperfect people tell you what God demands.  They need to tend to their own closet's.

Quote from: AnnaiyahStarr on September 28, 2013, 11:53:26 PM
Deuteronomy 23:1 "No one whose testicles are crushed or whose male organ is cut off shall enter the assembly of the LORD."

So, basically, if i get my penis removed, I'm going to Hell, right?

First off, there's this certain catholic person who tried to convince me that there is no reincarnation whatsoever. I joined Christianity because of him! To cut the long story short, we've been exchanging e-mails back n fourth about both our transgender stuff. In his teachings, he's tried to convince me that transitioning is a moral sin, to remove or mutilate a perfectly functioning organ that God gave me is singing a one-way ticket to an eternity in hell, basing this all on the Bible verse above.

He also went on about this other Bible verse that said men should die once, and be judged. He meant for that to mean that once i pass from this life, it's either Heaven or Hell... no reincarnation.

We're not talking anymore because....well....words were exchanged, arguements were had, and i left the Christianity because i don't and refuse to agree with the teachings.

The way i see it -- if God so badly wanted me to be a man, and keep my male body He would've/should've made me a cis-male.

I just feel that transitioning is my destiny and that it's either i spend thousands of dollars on transition or i spend hundreds of dollars on a firearm and blow my brains out. And I'm certain there are consequences for suicide in the afterlife (Hell?).

I never wanted to be a man, anyway. I never did. I wouldn't be a man for all the money in the world.

I remember being as young as 9 when i would try to invert my male organ into a neo-vagina. Of course i'd fail. I've always wanted a vagina.

Maybe Christianity believes that there is no reincarnating, but there are others that otherwise do. I don't follow any religion. Womanhood is my religion, first and foremost. I'd like to believe there are more earthly lives, that the believe that you get just one life on earth, be judged and go to either Heaven or  is a bunch of balogna (LOL, haven't heard or said that one in a minute!).

And even if that were and irrefutable fact, i'd also like to believe that a loving God wouldn't cast transsexuals to Hell for changing their bodies to suit their comfort (yes, i believe there is a God). I just can't see that.

Like i said, i don't follow a religion but i do believe there is a God, a Heaven, and a Hell. But maybe there is that if i do remove my penis i do come back reincarnated afterall, i just won't go to Heaven. I really hope that's the case.

I had been praying about this, and that i won't be damned for this because again this feels like something i gotta do! I also wanted you guys' input on this, particularly from those of you who follow religion, especially Christianity.

Hey! If i remove my junk, i should be able to fit my underwear a bit better! (pun intended)

I will give you my input as a person who follows Christianity.  I mean no offense to you or anyone here and I respect everyone's beliefs, but this is from my perspective according to what I believe in Christianity from a nondenominational and especially a none Catholic point of view.

I do not believe in "mortal" or "venial" sin.  Sin is just sin.   However, because of sin, men are apponited to die once, and then there's judgement.  The Catholic person you talked to is right about that.  After judgement, there is only heaven or hell.  As much as I would like there to be reincarnation, the scriptures just doesn't teach it (unless we are talking about being raised up on the last day with incorruptable bodies).


Also, I am convinced that scripture you are referring to doesn't mean heaven, but something like a temple perhaps.  Jesus has even said it's better to remove your hand or pluck out your eye if it's causing you to sin because it's better to enter heaven without them than to go to hell with those parts intact (Matthew 5 29-30) so just from that, it doesn't seem like removing body parts are an issue...and they aren't.  You would not go to hell for having your penis removed (and in the case of SRS, the tissue is reused anyways). 

If anything, if you tried to follow that law in order to get to heaven, then you must follow EVERY law in the Bible and Galatians 2:16 basically says by the works of the law no man shall be justified.  There's only one thing you need to do to go to heaven and avoid hell is to believe on Jesus Christ and have your faith in Him 100 percent.  Being transsexual has nothing to do with salvation. 

I avoid religious posts out of respect for those who have Faith and the desire and need to follow their religious belief.

However.

My understanding of the New Testament is that there is a parable about 'Talents'. Generally misinterpreted to mean mental and physical ability rather than the coin in usage.

None the less.

In the parable Jesus exhorts people to do their best and not waste their 'God Given' talents.

Ok in my field of medical oncology we have taken enormous strides due to the ability of scientists and medics who dedicate themselves to helping people.

I can assure you, we will castrate a man is need be for surgical treatment. For example if he was diagnosed with testicular cancer then it might well be a treatment of choice (with other treatments of course. Lance Armstrong was so treated and ignoring his issues with being a dope cheat, has contributed a vast amount to helping people with Cancer through his Foundation.

Oh woman also have their uterus removed for hysterectomy for clinical and not just trans* conditions. Young girls have their vagina's removed due to cancer of the cells in the vaginal lining.

So they all go to Hell?

Should Lance Armstrong be consigned to Hell because of a treatment protocol that saved his life, and subsequently has saved many others due to his Charity?

If so, well I think God needs to have a rethink on their morality. If I ever meet them I will tell them my opinion as well.

Them? Well God has to be Androgyne surely!

"Let him without sin cast the first stone." and "Do not judge others lest ye be judged thyself" are two quotes from the Bible that always come to my mind when someone throws their religion into the argument reguarding whether or not someone else is worthy of entering God's kingdom . It is not their job to judge your fate.
   

Quote from: Malachite on September 29, 2013, 03:47:25 AM
I will give you my input as a person who follows Christianity.  I mean no offense to you or anyone here and I respect everyone's beliefs, but this is from my perspective according to what I believe in Christianity from a nondenominational and especially a none Catholic point of view.

I do not believe in "mortal" or "venial" sin.  Sin is just sin.   However, because of sin, men are apponited to die once, and then there's judgement.  The Catholic person you talked to is right about that.  After judgement, there is only heaven or hell.  As much as I would like there to be reincarnation, the scriptures just doesn't teach it (unless we are talking about being raised up on the last day with incorruptable bodies).


Also, I am convinced that scripture you are referring to doesn't mean heaven, but something like a temple perhaps.  Jesus has even said it's better to remove your hand or pluck out your eye if it's causing you to sin because it's better to enter heaven without them than to go to hell with those parts intact (Matthew 5 29-30) so just from that, it doesn't seem like removing body parts are an issue...and they aren't.  You would not go to hell for having your penis removed (and in the case of SRS, the tissue is reused anyways). 

If anything, if you tried to follow that law in order to get to heaven, then you must follow EVERY law in the Bible and Galatians 2:16 basically says by the works of the law no man shall be justified.  There's only one thing you need to do to go to heaven and avoid hell is to believe on Jesus Christ and have your faith in Him 100 percent.  Being transsexual has nothing to do with salvation.

To everyone else: thank you for your replies because I hate to make it seem like I'm only talking to or listening to Malachite but he's said something in this thread that I'm prone to replying to. Maybe a little later down the road I'll reply to other people's posts and I really do appreciate others' input, it's really comforting to see you guys say these things as I feel a little comfortable going down the SRS highway.

To Malachite:
I have nothing but respect for the Christian community as well as you guys' beliefs but here's where I stand as far as any religion is concerned: First of all, I agree with you when you say "sin is sin" when it comes to the terms of moral or venial sins, and I too would like to believe in reincarnation and I've came across some speculation that reincarnation is even taught among the Christian community.

It was actually GirlInside123 (I really didn't mean to put his identity out there, but out of respect he did ask me not to share his name, which I am not going to do) who brought me to Christianity but I eventually left because of some of the things he's been saying to me, and that he and I myself, have been stressing me/myself out with what Heaven would be like and whether or not there is another earth lifetime after this one.

My prime reason for wanting to come back to earth reincarnated is so I can do just that, as a female, and have the childhood and do everything I had to miss out on here and can't do in Heaven in terms of being female. I mean, when I was brought to Christianity, I got excited at the belief that I could be female in Heaven and that I could have in Heaven anything that I could need to be happy. And then as the months and the years progressed, the persuasion drifted from the "you can have anything you need to be happy in Heaven orbit even if [something that's not believed to be done in heaven inserted here] makes you happy" morphed into the "it doesn't matter what you'll look like or be, have, or do in Heaven because you'll be so happy that you won't even care!" which started to worry me even more be he just didn't get that I don't care about happiness or eternal joy, I want back something that was taken from me at birth, that I probably won't get as a transwoman (God knows I hate that word) or in Heaven, first and foremost. He's also been trying to tell me that I should probably drop my female persona and not let womanhood be my religion and this and that, which I refused, and then it got into a big blowup to the point where angry e-mails turned into a flame war, and then I gave GirlInside123 the ultimatum that if he were going to keep lecturing me that God did the right thing by making me male, that I'm going to be happy in Heaven no matter whether I'm male, female, or genderless, and keep trying to press on that there is no reincarnation, etc. etc. then it's probably in both our best interests that we stop talking as he's been hurting me more than helping me, which is why I went to his website in the first place! For someone to talk to when everyone else seemed to only make it worse! And he's transgender himself, so I really thought he;d be able to relate but sadly I was wrong.

To elaborate... ... ... *long pause as I collect my thoughts*

Religion A believes in Belief A but not in Belief B or C.
Religion B does not believe in Belief A or Belief C but does in B
Religion C believes in Believes A and C but not in B...

I mean! There is no religion I can turn to! So this is why I've ultimately decided to leave the Christian faith altogether. I mean, I still believe there is a God, a Jesus, Heaven, Hell, and all that stuff as I've stated in the OP, but I believe in things that are taught/believed beyond the Christian faith and disagree with somethings that are taught/believed in the Christian faith, whereas I feel to stay somewhere my believes are gonna be constantly shot down because of "Oh, we don't teach that here," or "A true Christian/Muslim/Islamic/Buddhist/etc. would take the teachings to heart," blah-blah-blah then I'd rather stick to having my own mind about things (which my mother has always taught me to do anyway) and think for myself.

I mean, none of that is to urge you to leave the Christian faith or to talk you into doing so but that's just where I stand, you feel me?

I harbor no resentment to GirlInside123 or to the Christian community whatsoever. But I've left on my own accord because I felt it was for the best and for my own good... so that I wouldn't add to the stress that being transgender brings already. I guess it was just a matter of him understanding that... Christianity may have helped him personally, but it didn't help me so much, you feel me?

Moral of the story: What helped Person A may or may not necessarily help Person B in the long run. In the terms of us trans people, I guess we all have to find our way of dealing with it (for lack of a better term) and stick to that.

Quote from: AnnaiyahStarr on September 30, 2013, 04:20:16 PM
To everyone else: thank you for your replies because I hate to make it seem like I'm only talking to or listening to Malachite but he's said something in this thread that I'm prone to replying to. Maybe a little later down the road I'll reply to other people's posts and I really do appreciate others' input, it's really comforting to see you guys say these things as I feel a little comfortable going down the SRS highway.

To Malachite:
I have nothing but respect for the Christian community as well as you guys' beliefs but here's where I stand as far as any religion is concerned: First of all, I agree with you when you say "sin is sin" when it comes to the terms of moral or venial sins, and I too would like to believe in reincarnation and I've came across some speculation that reincarnation is even taught among the Christian community.

It was actually GirlInside123 (I really didn't mean to put his identity out there, but out of respect he did ask me not to share his name, which I am not going to do) who brought me to Christianity but I eventually left because of some of the things he's been saying to me, and that he and I myself, have been stressing me/myself out with what Heaven would be like and whether or not there is another earth lifetime after this one.

My prime reason for wanting to come back to earth reincarnated is so I can do just that, as a female, and have the childhood and do everything I had to miss out on here and can't do in Heaven in terms of being female. I mean, when I was brought to Christianity, I got excited at the belief that I could be female in Heaven and that I could have in Heaven anything that I could need to be happy. And then as the months and the years progressed, the persuasion drifted from the "you can have anything you need to be happy in Heaven orbit even if [something that's not believed to be done in heaven inserted here] makes you happy" morphed into the "it doesn't matter what you'll look like or be, have, or do in Heaven because you'll be so happy that you won't even care!" which started to worry me even more be he just didn't get that I don't care about happiness or eternal joy, I want back something that was taken from me at birth, that I probably won't get as a transwoman (God knows I hate that word) or in Heaven, first and foremost. He's also been trying to tell me that I should probably drop my female persona and not let womanhood be my religion and this and that, which I refused, and then it got into a big blowup to the point where angry e-mails turned into a flame war, and then I gave GirlInside123 the ultimatum that if he were going to keep lecturing me that God did the right thing by making me male, that I'm going to be happy in Heaven no matter whether I'm male, female, or genderless, and keep trying to press on that there is no reincarnation, etc. etc. then it's probably in both our best interests that we stop talking as he's been hurting me more than helping me, which is why I went to his website in the first place! For someone to talk to when everyone else seemed to only make it worse! And he's transgender himself, so I really thought he;d be able to relate but sadly I was wrong.

To elaborate... ... ... *long pause as I collect my thoughts*

Religion A believes in Belief A but not in Belief B or C.
Religion B does not believe in Belief A or Belief C but does in B
Religion C believes in Believes A and C but not in B...

I mean! There is no religion I can turn to! So this is why I've ultimately decided to leave the Christian faith altogether. I mean, I still believe there is a God, a Jesus, Heaven, Hell, and all that stuff as I've stated in the OP, but I believe in things that are taught/believed beyond the Christian faith and disagree with somethings that are taught/believed in the Christian faith, whereas I feel to stay somewhere my believes are gonna be constantly shot down because of "Oh, we don't teach that here," or "A true Christian/Muslim/Islamic/Buddhist/etc. would take the teachings to heart," blah-blah-blah then I'd rather stick to having my own mind about things (which my mother has always taught me to do anyway) and think for myself.

I mean, none of that is to urge you to leave the Christian faith or to talk you into doing so but that's just where I stand, you feel me?

I harbor no resentment to GirlInside123 or to the Christian community whatsoever. But I've left on my own accord because I felt it was for the best and for my own good... so that I wouldn't add to the stress that being transgender brings already. I guess it was just a matter of him understanding that... Christianity may have helped him personally, but it didn't help me so much, you feel me?

Moral of the story: What helped Person A may or may not necessarily help Person B in the long run. In the terms of us trans people, I guess we all have to find our way of dealing with it (for lack of a better term) and stick to that.

I understand where you're coming from completely.  In dialouge I've seen with other Christians I've heard the "it doesn't matter because you will be so happy in heaven that you won't even care" etc.  Christian disputes can get nasty very quickly.  However, with over 40,000 Christian denominations, I'm sure you could find one that are close to what you believe and if that doesn't work out, then seek what works best for you.  Good luck in whatever you decide.