Quote from: Lo on October 01, 2013, 09:59:44 AM
I would actually wager that the most common cause of body dysphoria is from depression.

For years I would come home from college for a visit and be told that I looked like a zombie; lo, I looked at myself in the mirror and didn't recognize what I saw. Frustration and self-loathing are pretty guaranteed side effects of depression, and how many people suffer from it?

I don't think I was depressed at 4 wanting to be a girl or wanting boobs to grow when other girls started changing...  I believe dysphoria is what causes depression.. without dyshoria wha would we be depressed.  I have dyshoria now and its causing depression even suicidal thoughts..
Also, they say anti depressants don't always help dyshoria.
Carrie

Quote from: carrie359 on October 01, 2013, 10:41:10 AM
I don't think I was depressed at 4 wanting to be a girl or wanting boobs to grow when other girls started changing...  I believe dysphoria is what causes depression.. without dyshoria wha would we be depressed.  I have dyshoria now and its causing depression even suicidal thoughts..
Also, they say anti depressants don't always help dyshoria.
Carrie

I believe they are talking about other ways it can occur, not that it's true for everyone.  I think it would be more accurate to say people with dysphoria become depressed, or if they are like us have been depressed since puberty set in.

Quote from: Sierra Belle on October 01, 2013, 11:33:34 AM
I believe they are talking about other ways it can occur, not that it's true for everyone.  I think it would be more accurate to say people with dysphoria become depressed, or if they are like us have been depressed since puberty set in.

No. We were talking about non-transgender body dysphoria. This type of dysphoria is very similar to what we experience, but the causes are completely different (more transient).

Quote from: kabit on October 01, 2013, 11:46:59 AM
No. We were talking about non-transgender body dysphoria. This type of dysphoria is very similar to what we experience, but the causes are completely different (more transient).

You mean like BDD?

Yeah, BDD is another one. Also, feelings of malaise are a common side effect of a lot of mood disorders.

I think definitely gender dysphoria causes depression. I believe depression always has a reason, I am not in favour of this idea that it is caused by some hickup in brain chemistry. But I can imagine something like abuse causing depression and that depression then leading to some form of dysphoria. I know it can happen that someone born male had an abusive childhood and learned by experience and by women telling him, that men are bad and violent. The trauma combined with that experience can then cause social dysphoria that may go into the TG spectrum.

Quote from: anjaq on October 02, 2013, 04:33:50 AM
I think definitely gender dysphoria causes depression. I believe depression always has a reason, I am not in favour of this idea that it is caused by some hickup in brain chemistry. But I can imagine something like abuse causing depression and that depression then leading to some form of dysphoria. I know it can happen that someone born male had an abusive childhood and learned by experience and by women telling him, that men are bad and violent. The trauma combined with that experience can then cause social dysphoria that may go into the TG spectrum.

I think it can certainly influence depression... but not [directly] cause it. I am not depressed and don't think I could ever have been called depressed (aside from minor things lasting no more than a few hours - and those were stress related) - even during puberty when the dysphoria was at its worst.

I'm not saying it's better to be depressed, but in some ways it makes being trans* difficult because I'm usually happy - (though I never visibly showed that emotion, either). If people see you as happy, and always having been mostly happy, they have a tough time seeing you as transgender.

I like this a lot. I watched it a couple of days ago and some sort of cogs were whirring in my head for a while after. I guess now I feel more vindicated in being able to say I REALLY AM a woman. It's not just something psychological, but an actual physical reality in my brain. And I have a woman's brain, and always have, even if other parts of my body are at varying levels of femaleness at the moment.

One criticism of the video is that he perpetuates that myth where all trans people know since day 1. I didn't. But I know pretty damn sure now, and I'm certain that if they examined my brain they'd see a woman's brain.

Quote from: Sophia Gubb on October 02, 2013, 06:33:14 AM
One criticism of the video is that he perpetuates that myth where all trans people know since day 1. I didn't. But I know pretty damn sure now, and I'm certain that if they examined my brain they'd see a woman's brain.

Yeah... I hate that myth. I don't even like it when they say "most" do. Really? Most of the ones that are out by young teens, maybe... but even then you ignore the hormonal aspect during puberty. How many are still out there hiding it? I came out at 35 because my parents didn't believe it could be real at ~15 (or so) and, with their subconscious help, I was convinced I could hide it for the rest of my life.

(It almost worked... but I decided to turn my health around instead of dying young)

Quote from: kabit on October 02, 2013, 06:07:37 AM
I think it can certainly influence depression... but not [directly] cause it. I am not depressed and don't think I could ever have been called depressed [...]I'm usually happy - (though I never visibly showed that emotion, either). If people see you as happy, and always having been mostly happy, they have a tough time seeing you as transgender.

You dont even have to seem happy, just content, meaning not showing you are doing really really bad
Dysphoria may or may not cause depression, its just on possibility (I think usually it does not work the other way round though - depression causing gender dysphoria). For me it was that. I did not even realize though that I was depressed. Only by looking at it later, I see that I was. At that time it just felt like I had not many empotions - I was not feeling incredibly sad usually, I was never feeling really happy either, it was just always the same and sort of stoic trodding along. When I came out even before HRT I discovered I had emotions and that this is the "normal" state of a human being. I had a depression some years post op and I realized that it was one then as I felt the same way as in my teens - emotionless and bland. I was then diagnosed with severe depression and treated. It over now for good I think

Quote from: Sophia Gubb on October 02, 2013, 06:33:14 AM
I like this a lot. I watched it a couple of days ago and some sort of cogs were whirring in my head for a while after. I guess now I feel more vindicated in being able to say I REALLY AM a woman. It's not just something psychological, but an actual physical reality in my brain

Yes to that. I always thought for such a long time that I am just making things up, that its just me having weird thoughts, maybe I am a pervert or have gone crazy or have had some trauma that caused me to be like that - which did not really help coming out. Knowing that there is a physical reason for it makes it easier for oneself and others to accept this particular strain of being gender variant (again, that does not IMO make other expressions less valid).

Quote
One criticism of the video is that he perpetuates that myth where all trans people know since day 1. I didn't. But I know pretty damn sure now, and I'm certain that if they examined my brain they'd see a woman's brain.

The way I see it, our brain and our soul knew from day 1, but our mind did not. First of all the mind did not even think about gender until some age, like 3 or so. Then the mind knew that there is a difference based on body and since we have a XY body, well the mind first has to assume that this is like that. And at that time depending on the social setting the games kids play are often not gendered and girls and boys play together, like playing house or building a zoo from wooden animals or playing hide and seek (Well, that was me at least, some decades ago ). And then at the age where the differences start to be more and more striking, we start to get confused and then it starts to dawn on us, I think. At lest it dawns that somehting is not right here. So I think the cases where a 3 year old just openly speaks about being a girl are probably rare and rather depend on the circumstances than anyone being "more" TS than others (which is the impression I get from some people insisting on that plus the Benjamin scale and all that).

Quote from: kabit on October 02, 2013, 06:45:16 AM
I came out at 35 because my parents didn't believe it could be real at ~15 (or so) and, with their subconscious help, I was convinced I could hide it for the rest of my life.
(It almost worked... but I decided to turn my health around instead of dying young)

I hope you are not saying you would have died young because you were depressed after saying you are were not...

Quote from: anjaq on October 02, 2013, 07:23:46 AM
You dont even have to seem happy, just content, meaning not showing you are doing really really bad
Dysphoria may or may not cause depression, its just on possibility (I think usually it does not work the other way round though - depression causing gender dysphoria). For me it was that. I did not even realize though that I was depressed. Only by looking at it later, I see that I was. At that time it just felt like I had not many empotions - I was not feeling incredibly sad usually, I was never feeling really happy either, it was just always the same and sort of stoic trodding along. When I came out even before HRT I discovered I had emotions and that this is the "normal" state of a human being. I had a depression some years post op and I realized that it was one then as I felt the same way as in my teens - emotionless and bland. I was then diagnosed with severe depression and treated. It over now for good I think

[...]

I hope you are not saying you would have died young because you were depressed after saying you are were not...

Ah... that makes more sense. When I think of depression, I think of clinical depression that requires intervention. Yes. I had that other, lighter sort. The kind that sits on you, but that you can be happy through. I think a lot of us call it "muted emotions" but it's essentially the same thing.

I had a coping mechanism... Carbohydrates put you into a lightly sedated state. That let me deal with my issues... unfortunately (as with most coping mechanisms) it catches up to you. I was early-diabetic (not pre-diabetic... my A1C was 7.5... but very reversable) and have high BP. Coming out is the only thing that allowed me to lose significant weight and make a change in my life (I must have tried and failed 10 other times in the last 15 years or so).

Now I'm happy, dysphoric, and not depressed (or at least all of my depression comes from other sources). Doing something about the dysphoria fixes any depressive issues caused by it ~ at least for me.

But no... I'd never consider myself clinically depressed at any time in the past, except possibly once or twice from stress issues. A couple weeks after coming out to my wife I was pretty severely depressed for one evening. It's not possible to sleep 3 hours a night for 2 weeks... a good night's rest fixed it.

Quote from: suzifrommd on September 29, 2013, 03:41:32 PM
I was thinking more about the phantom limb thing. It may be due to the fact that the penile tissue is largely preserved during SRS, so I'm not sure it's as convincing as the other results.

I would venture the guess that this is true.  Phantom limb syndrome normally implies that the brain looses the connections and then ends up with issues assembling a picture of the state of the body's sensors which sometimes results in phantom sensation.  In the case of penile inversion, all of the same physical connections are still present, and the brain does have to go through a period of "remapping" sensation with location, but there is signaling.  I would hope that the study mentioned covers that but he either neglected to mention it out of ignorance or merely wasn't prepared to delve that in depth into the subject.

Quote from: kabit on October 01, 2013, 04:37:39 AMIn terms of transgender tendencies, I firmly believe in the biological aspect - little else would explain the young kids who express the opposite gender...

I agree here. I was one of those, at about age 4 or 5, just about the age you start to understand about gender differences.

My dysphoria did cause constant anxiety, and clinical depression at certain times, including a breakdown.

Quote from: anjaq on October 02, 2013, 04:33:50 AM
I think definitely gender dysphoria causes depression. I believe depression always has a reason, I am not in favour of this idea that it is caused by some hickup in brain chemistry. But I can imagine something like abuse causing depression and that depression then leading to some form of dysphoria. I know it can happen that someone born male had an abusive childhood and learned by experience and by women telling him, that men are bad and violent. The trauma combined with that experience can then cause social dysphoria that may go into the TG spectrum.

There are many REAL things that can cause depression, including hiccups in the brain.  Some families are naturally more prone to getting depressed, this isn't an idea. It's a FACT.  Many other mental illnesses and impairments also cause depression, naturally, as it should.  Depression is a symptom of something being off balance. It's a good indicator to people that something just simply isn't right.  Happens in every living animal on the planet, I don't think there is one person who can honestly say going through this they didn't have the slightest bit of depression.

Quote from: kabit on October 02, 2013, 06:45:16 AMMost of the ones that are out by young teens, maybe... but even then you ignore the hormonal aspect during puberty. How many are still out there hiding it?

How many? Quite a lot I think. A friend told me that in an average size town you might have like 500 people who are trans, and many will never acknowledge it (she had exact numbers which escape me at the moment). Then she said to me "there were probably some you knew in high school" and, yep, there was. One of my friends, and years later I saw him, or now her, walking down the street. That was back in the late 70s.

I'll be 56 in November. I've been hiding all this time and I knew since I was 4. So how many more are there?

Lots.

Quote from: RavenMoon on October 03, 2013, 11:52:17 AM
How many? Quite a lot I think. A friend told me that in an average size town you might have like 500 people who are trans, and many will never acknowledge it (she had exact numbers which escape me at the moment). Then she said to me "there were probably some you knew in high school" and, yep, there was. One of my friends, and years later I saw him, or now her, walking down the street. That was back in the late 70s.

I'll be 56 in November. I've been hiding all this time and I knew since I was 4. So how many more are there?

Lots.

Most of the trans I've known have known since young, I was under the impression that everyone knew, it's just a matter of who showed it most potently, and when they came out completely.  I started realizing mine around 6 or 7, I started doing things about it 7 months ago, just after I turned 19.

Quote from: anjaq on October 02, 2013, 04:33:50 AM
I think definitely gender dysphoria causes depression. I believe depression always has a reason, I am not in favour of this idea that it is caused by some hickup in brain chemistry. But I can imagine something like abuse causing depression and that depression then leading to some form of dysphoria. I know it can happen that someone born male had an abusive childhood and learned by experience and by women telling him, that men are bad and violent. The trauma combined with that experience can then cause social dysphoria that may go into the TG spectrum.

Please educate yourself before assuming mood disorders are caused by things like abuse. Decades of scientific inquiry disagree with your "idea", and even my personal history defies your explanation, I'm afraid. If brain anatomy and chemical imbalances can "cause" someone to be TG, then why is it such a stretch for it to "cause" someone to be depressed?

Quote from: kabit on October 02, 2013, 06:07:37 AM
I think it can certainly influence depression... but not [directly] cause it. I am not depressed and don't think I could ever have been called depressed (aside from minor things lasting no more than a few hours - and those were stress related) - even during puberty when the dysphoria was at its worst.

I'm not saying it's better to be depressed, but in some ways it makes being trans* difficult because I'm usually happy - (though I never visibly showed that emotion, either). If people see you as happy, and always having been mostly happy, they have a tough time seeing you as transgender.

No, it actually makes it a lot freakin' harder. You don't know if you're depressed because of dysphoria, or if you experience them at the same time but separately, and when you've come out and started transitioning you wonder why you still aren't happy and maybe you were never TG at all.

Quote from: Lo on October 03, 2013, 12:04:53 PM
Please educate yourself before assuming mood disorders are caused by things like abuse. Decades of scientific inquiry disagree with your "idea", and even my personal history defies your explanation, I'm afraid. If brain anatomy and chemical imbalances can "cause" someone to be TG, then why is it such a stretch for it to "cause" someone to be depressed?

No, it actually makes it a lot freakin' harder. You don't know if you're depressed because of dysphoria, or if you experience them at the same time but separately, and when you've come out and started transitioning you wonder why you still aren't happy and maybe you were never TG at all.

Exactly, my own sister was the most depressed person I think I've ever met so far, and she literally had 0 abuse, 0 visible reason to have such a potent reason for depression, today she can't even explain exactly why she was depressed but she grew out of it.  Me and her were only months apart, so I'm sure it wasn't much to do with school either.

Quote from: Sierra Belle on October 03, 2013, 12:04:33 PMI started realizing mine around 6 or 7, I started doing things about it 7 months ago, just after I turned 19.

Oh gosh I wish I was 19 again! I'm so happy for everyone younger who is starting this journey. 

It would make this whole thing a lot easier if I started back then... and cheaper. While my face/body hasn't changed too much since I was that age, as compared to some cis males (I'm still small in stature and don't have too much testosterone damage), I'll need some FFS to be passible, at least in my opinion (I care more about how I feel than how others see me).

Me at 19:

  (even here I don't look too happy...)

Quote from: RavenMoon on October 03, 2013, 12:23:40 PM
Oh gosh I wish I was 19 again! I'm so happy for everyone younger who is starting this journey. 

It would make this whole thing a lot easier if I started back then... and cheaper. While my face/body hasn't changed too much since I was that age, as compared to some cis males (I'm still small in stature and don't have too much testosterone damage), I'll need some FFS to be passible, at least in my opinion (I care more about how I feel than how others see me).

Me at 19:

  (even here I don't look too happy...)

Yeah, I didn't get as much of the bony facial features, but neither did my father until his 20's from the pictures I saw.  Anyway, I think most of the difficulty for later transitions is how they age,  men and women tend to age differently, at least mid life. Then late life everyone pretty much looks the same aside from the obvious organs, IMO.

Btw, you have a cute nose.