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Male-to-Female Transsexuals Have Female Neuron Numbers in a Limbic Nucleus

Started by Alisha, October 04, 2013, 12:41:30 AM

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RavenMoon

Quote from: Nidalexi on October 05, 2013, 11:26:09 AM
I don't think she was trying to split us up into different categories.  I think what she was really saying is there are many different conditions which would ultimately cause more or less potent feelings or more or less need to change.  She was saying that the extent of the transition to go in regards to the patient, and not loop all transsexuals in to the same exact routine. 

Yes, I understood that, and I'm not totally convinced. I'm also not totally a layperson when it comes to this stuff because of my interests in the field. I've known more than a few doctors and therapists I've met.  lol Oh that's scary.

QuoteThat aside, I do also believe there are some people who actually transition out of talking themselves in to it, I feel it's usually due to something like  ->-bleeped-<- or just a very narrow hatred for men in general.  I've noticed a lot of people like this and it scares me, because I don't think they will be safe and happy come 3 or 4 years.  That hardly comes close to the majority though, which I don't actually think she was saying that a large fraction of people show these symptoms for other reasons.

OK, but now you are talking about sexual attraction.  That has little to do with gender identity. They are two separate things. As a man I have only dated women. I'm not attracted to men and don't plan on changing that. lol But that has nothing to do with my gender identity. If you think you want to be a woman because you are gay, that might be some other issue. But you might feel you are a heterosexual woman, well that's considered "normal" too. Lots of gray areas here. Sex plays no part in my decision to transition.

Sure, there are all kinds of people that have all kinds of, for lack of a better term, "issues". But that's clearly different from being a small child and knowing you are the opposite sex than you were assigned at birth. Because at that age you have no sexual attraction to other people, and certainly no animosity towards anyone based on gender, etc. Unless they steal your cookies. :)
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barbie

Quote from: Alisha on October 04, 2013, 12:41:30 AM
I found this article on the journal of endocrinology & metabolism.
this article made me more confident to become a woman because i really am a woman.

this is the link, feel free to read:

http://jcem.endojournals.org/content/85/5/2034.full

the question for the discussion is, can we trust that article?

Alisha,

Thanks for the very interesting and exciting paper. The journal seems highly influential among doctors (Impact factor = 6.4).

Despite the small sample size of the study, which is quite understandable considering the difficulty of acquiring posthumous brains, it strongly suggests that our gender identity is determined by complex interactions between sex chromosomes and autosomes, and between genitalia and brain, i.e., dichotomy vs. continuum. Individual variation is great, but there were some statistically significant differences among groups. It just starts revealing the tip of the iceberg. Our mind is so much complex, profound and enormous, but science will help understand it.

barbie~~

Just do it.
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Lexi Belle

Quote from: RavenMoon on October 05, 2013, 01:49:22 PM
Yes, I understood that, and I'm not totally convinced. I'm also not totally a layperson when it comes to this stuff because of my interests in the field. I've known more than a few doctors and therapists I've met.  lol Oh that's scary.

OK, but now you are talking about sexual attraction.  That has little to do with gender identity. They are two separate things. As a man I have only dated women. I'm not attracted to men and don't plan on changing that. lol But that has nothing to do with my gender identity. If you think you want to be a woman because you are gay, that might be some other issue. But you might feel you are a heterosexual woman, well that's considered "normal" too. Lots of gray areas here. Sex plays no part in my decision to transition.

Sure, there are all kinds of people that have all kinds of, for lack of a better term, "issues". But that's clearly different from being a small child and knowing you are the opposite sex than you were assigned at birth. Because at that age you have no sexual attraction to other people, and certainly no animosity towards anyone based on gender, etc. Unless they steal your cookies. :)
Well yes, but 2 different things with similar symptoms.  Which is exactly what they were saying. :P
Skype- Alexandria.Edelmeyer
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Chaos

Since this is also based on brain matter,i will post the study i posted elsewhere in case anyone missed it.these studies can be found by searching for the doctors listed within it.It is very clear in MANY areas of the brain,effects with hormones and without.I think this study combined with the OP's,does make both much stronger.Tho the below is much easier to understand even for the uneducated in this kind of field.

"In a first-of-its-kind study, Zhou et al. (1995) found that in a region of the brain called the bed nucleus of the stria terminalis (BSTc), a region known for sex and anxiety responses, MTF transsexuals have a female-normal size while FTM transsexuals have a male-normal size. While the transsexuals studied had taken hormones, this was accounted for by including non-transsexual male and female controls who, for a variety of medical reasons, had experienced hormone reversal. The controls still retained sizes typical for their gender. No relationship to sexual orientation was found.[20]
In a follow-up study, Kruijver et al. (2000) looked at the number of neurons in BSTc instead of volumes. They found the same results as Zhou et al. (1995), but with even more dramatic differences. One MTF subject who had never gone on hormones was also included, and who matched up with the female neuron counts nonetheless.[21]
In 2002, a follow-up study by Chung et al. found that significant sexual dimorphism (variation between sexes) in BSTc did not become established until adulthood. Chung et al. theorized that either changes in fetal hormone levels produce changes in BSTc synaptic density, neuronal activity, or neurochemical content which later lead to size and neuron count changes in BSTc, or that the size of BSTc is affected by the failure to generate a gender identity consistent with one's anatomic sex.[22]
In a review of the evidence in 2006, Gooren confirms the earlier research as supporting the concept that transsexualism is a sexual differentiation disorder of the sex dimorphic brain.[23] Dick Swaab (2004) concurs.[24]
In 2008, a new region with properties similar to that of BSTc in regards to transsexualism was found by Garcia-Falgueras and Swaab: the interstitial nucleus of the anterior hypothalamus (INAH3), part of the hypothalamic uncinate nucleus. The same method of controlling for hormone usage was used as in Zhou et al. (1995) and Kruijver et al. (2000). The differences were even more pronounced than with BSTc; control males averaged 1.9 times the volume and 2.3 times the neurons as control females, yet once again, regardless of hormone exposure, MTF transsexuals lay within the female range and the FTM transsexual within the male range.[25]
While the resolution of MRI tomographs in general can be fine enough, independent nuclei are not visible due to lack of contrast between different neurological tissue types. Therefore such images do not show detailed structures such as BSTc and INAH3, and studies on BSTC were done by bisecting brains postmortem.
However, MRI does much more easily allow the study of larger brain structures. In Luders et al. (2009), 24 MTF transsexuals not-yet treated with cross-sex hormones were studied via MRI. While regional gray matter concentrations were more similar to men than women, there was a significantly larger volume of gray matter in the right putamen compared to men. As with many earlier studies, they concluded that transsexualism is associated with a distinct cerebral pattern.[26]
An additional feature was studied in a group of FTM transsexuals who had not yet received cross-sex hormones: fractional anisotropy values for white matter in the medial and posterior parts of the right superior longitudinal fasciculus (SLF), the forceps minor, and the corticospinal tract. Rametti et al. (2010) discovered that, "Compared to control females, FtM showed higher FA values in posterior part of the right SLF, the forceps minor and corticospinal tract. Compared to control males, FtM showed only lower FA values in the corticospinal tract."[27]
Hulshoff Pol et al. (2006), studied the gross brain volume of subjects undergoing hormone treatment. They discovered that whole brain volume for subjects changes toward the size of the opposite reproductive sex during hormone treatment. The conclusion of the study was, "The findings suggest that, throughout life, gonadal hormones remain essential for maintaining aspects of sex-specific differences in the human brain."
All Thing's Come With A Price...
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RavenMoon

Quote from: Nidalexi on October 05, 2013, 02:24:33 PM
Well yes, but 2 different things with similar symptoms.  Which is exactly what they were saying. :P

I don't think they are similar symptoms at all. The motivation behind them is different, and one is probably not what was classified as GID, even if there is some body dysphoria involved.

I'm 5'5" tall, and weighed about 120 pounds most of my post teenage life. Though that rarely bothered me (and I'm grateful for it now), there might have been a few times I wished I was taller. So someone might wish they were a girl, or that they are taller, or more attractive, or rich. But that's different from knowing you are a girl*, and wanting your body to match.

People get cosmetic surgery all the time because they "wished" their nose was smaller, or whatever. So they have dysphoria over that aspect of their appearance. SRS goes a bit beyond that. If your main motivation is you want to have hetero sex with men, I think that needs to be examined more closely. That's my opinion anyway, based on my own personal feelings. I'm never motivated by sex in my wanting to me a woman. It's between me and myself.

(* I like the word "girl" even though some people like to correct me and want me to say "female" or "woman" or whatever, but it's not meant in a condescending way. I just like the sound of the word. :) )
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Lexi Belle

Quote from: RavenMoon on October 05, 2013, 02:54:53 PM
I don't think they are similar symptoms at all. The motivation behind them is different, and one is probably not what was classified as GID, even if there is some body dysphoria involved.

I'm 5'5" tall, and weighed about 120 pounds most of my post teenage life. Though that rarely bothered me (and I'm grateful for it now), there might have been a few times I wished I was taller. So someone might wish they were a girl, or that they are taller, or more attractive, or rich. But that's different from knowing you are a girl*, and wanting your body to match.

People get cosmetic surgery all the time because they "wished" their nose was smaller, or whatever. So they have dysphoria over that aspect of their appearance. SRS goes a bit beyond that. If your main motivation is you want to have hetero sex with men, I think that needs to be examined more closely. That's my opinion anyway.

(* I like the word "girl" even though some people like to correct me and want me to say "female" or "woman" or whatever, but it's not meant in a condescending way. I just like the sound of the word. :) )

Funny you should say that, you know what my father told me when I came out to him? 

"It's a little concerning to me that you consistently refer to it as being a girl, it tells me you're still young and you haven't grown enough to make such a serious decision."

I had to sit there and listen to about 30 minutes of lecture about how I need more experience to make this "choice."  Needless to say, I objected, unfortunately silently as it's the only way with him. Lol.

But anyway, symptoms are symptoms only inside can you actually tell the difference between a want and a need.  Some people who need don't project it as much as they feel, people who want might exaggerate it.  Us knowing the difference between someone who is appealed by the thought of them as a female and someone who feels they just simply ARE female isn't so easily deduced.  Well, unless they literally say I'd love to be a hot girl or something.
Skype- Alexandria.Edelmeyer
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RavenMoon

In the end anyone can make the decision to do anything they want.  ;D  I suppose that's why you generally have therapy first, just in case you are delusional. But people probably know what they want. We all do have feminine and masculine traits. A lot of people mask them, but they are there. For me the feminine outnumber the masculine, but part of me will always be the person I grew up as, because of experience. I missed the experience of growing up a girl, and had to hang around as many as I could to try and be part of that. Nothing is more frustrating then helping a cis woman pick out clothes you really want for yourself.  :-\  (I used to design my own clothes too)

I'm still a little girl. Being young at heart is good for you. ;)
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