Prejudges within our own transsexual community is troublesome to me. With all due respect, please understand at the moment, I am not talking about the transgender community that has a much broader membership than our more narrowly defined transsexual community. I have been required for employment reasons that began many years ago, when I earned a Masters Degree in an International profession, to live and work overseas.  Therefore, when I sought medical and psychiatric care for gender dysorphia, I was required to seek it from doctors outside of the United States or England that did not us the Harry Bingaman Standard of care. My overseas doctors put me through an extensive and excusive,  psychiatric therapy, and screening process; before allowing me to continue on to the surgical option of a sex change and facial feminization surgeries.

After completing my several year transition processes overseas while I worked in foreign countries around the world, I returned to the United States for only a short time. I was met by some prominent members of the "Transsexual community" that really without any real information about me or my transition, condemned me for transitioning overseas. They accused me of attempting to circumvent the Harry Bingaman Standard of care by "paying off" the process. These community leaders ignored, or simply did not want to know that I have spent much of my adult life living and working outside of the western world were the Bingaman Standard of care is simply not used. I have been called by other transsexuals in our community "HE......" This type of response from leaders of our transsexual community, simply based on what medical protocol was used during my transition is complete ignorance, xenophobia, and myopic. I like anyone else, was required to use the medical resources that were available to me at the time, and my credentials as a female should not be questioned, most certainly by leaders of our transsexual community.


Godiva

Probably one of the most important things we can all learn from being trans is acceptance.  This includes both self-acceptance and acceptance of others for who they are.  Those who judged you and expressed their displeasure about how you went about things have obviously not learned this valuable lesson.  It's not your baggage to carry, they will carry it until they open their eyes.  It's their problem, not yours.

The Harry Benjamin Standards of Care is a fine guideline for transitioning but, like anything else, it doesn't work for everyone.  The primary intent of the SOC is to prevent someone from transitioning who isn't ready.  Some of us know we need to transition without the help of the process established in the SOC.  Others need to go through that process in order to be sure they are indeed transsexual.  It's not how we get there, it's simply getting there.  If this society completely accepted all transgender persons, the SOC probably would never have been created.  But many people use it almost as a religion, and that's fine, for them.  But, just like religion, they shouldn't be forcing their beliefs on everyone around them.  And that brings us back to acceptance.

It is sad that there are those in our community who judge, condemn and ostracize others because they don't fit their idea of what a "true transsexual" is.  What they seem to forget is there's a great big world out there that does the same thing to them just because they are transsexual.  The best way we can educate the public about who we are is to stick together and show them we are just ordinary people with an extraordinary challenge.

Julie

Quote from: Godiva on July 13, 2007, 09:28:39 AM
Prejudges within our own transsexual community is troublesome to me. With all due respect, please understand at the moment, I am not talking about the transgender community that has a much broader membership than our more narrowly defined transsexual community. I have been required for employment reasons that began many years ago, when I earned a Masters Degree in an International profession, to live and work overseas.  Therefore, when I sought medical and psychiatric care for gender dysorphia, I was required to seek it from doctors outside of the United States or England that did not us the Harry Bingaman Standard of care. My overseas doctors put me through an extensive and excusive,  psychiatric therapy, and screening process; before allowing me to continue on to the surgical option of a sex change and facial feminization surgeries.

After completing my several year transition processes overseas while I worked in foreign countries around the world, I returned to the United States for only a short time. I was met by some prominent members of the "Transsexual community" that really without any real information about me or my transition, condemned me for transitioning overseas. They accused me of attempting to circumvent the Harry Bingaman Standard of care by "paying off" the process. These community leaders ignored, or simply did not want to know that I have spent much of my adult life living and working outside of the western world were the Bingaman Standard of care is simply not used. I have been called by other transsexuals in our community "HE......" This type of response from leaders of our transsexual community, simply based on what medical protocol was used during my transition is complete ignorance, xenophobia, and myopic. I like anyone else, was required to use the medical resources that were available to me at the time, and my credentials as a female should not be questioned, most certainly by leaders of our transsexual community.


Godiva

I only wish that I could be the recipient of such accusations [I love a good fight, be it verbal or physical].

I am completely circumventing the HBSOC proscribed process. I am not 'proud' of the fact, but a girl does what she must do to survive and if I was following religiously the HBSOC syllabus for transition, I would be dead right now.

I have been the 'victim' of ostracization and shunning in other TS 'support' forums for this very reason. It was not verbal nor overt, but it was manifested.

Frankly, I couldn't care less and I find the mentality depressingly puerile. The 'mechanics' of my transition are my business and mine alone.

I only wish that I could be the recipient of such accusations [I love a good fight, be it verbal or physical].

I am completely circumventing the HBSOC proscribed process. I am not 'proud' of the fact, but a girl does what she must do to survive and if I was following religiously the HBSOC syllabus for transition, I would be dead right now.

I have been the 'victim' of ostracization and shunning in other TS 'support' forums for this very reason. It was not verbal nor overt, but it was manifested.

Frankly, I couldn't care less and I find the mentality depressingly puerile. The 'mechanics' of my transition are my business and mine alone.


Rhonda:

I admire your free spirited attitude, but many people see your private decision concerning this mental health issue (gender dysphoria) that involves issues of sexuality as their business, and believe that what they think is best, is more important than what you believe is right for your own life. I am sorry, but this is fact; just look at what is being said by the religious right fanatics in America.

But, even within the transsexual community the Harry Bingaman Standards of care are the cause of very heated debate and controversy. There are many who have submitted to this standard of care within the transsexual community that wish to use it as a gate keeper, so to affirm their self perception of being more entitled and justified than those who have not conformed to the standard. It is being used to draw a distinction between, what they see, as two different groups within the transsexual community; one that is supported by the medical main stream and therefore are more socially acceptable, and the other that is not.

I dare remind you that this is a very public forum on the Internet that is focused on a very controversial personal, and what should be, a very private issue. As fare as what the owners of this website value on this topic is in question. Please read the following quote from the main page of this sight. For you to assume support on how you feel about this issue from anyone associated with this Internet sight is very dangerous.

****************************************************************************************

Our Links Editor has established a new links directoy under Medical. It is named "Therapists and Counselors." The directory currently includes the USA and its states, Canada, Australia, and the United Kingdom. Other countries will be added based on input.

Our aim is to develop a readily accessible list of mental health professionals, preferably those who are transgender friendly and knowledgeable of gender identity and expression issues and of the HBIGDA (now WPATH) Harry Benjamin Standards of Care (SOC).

Susan's Place members are probably the best source of information concerning such professionals. In particular, you know whether or not your therapist/counselor or a family member's is supportive of gender variant people.

Please provide as much of the following information as possible, but don't let a lack of an item keep you from responding:

Name and credentials (e.g., LCSW, PhD, MSW, etc.)
Address, including any clinic or other organizational name
Phone Number
Email address, if available
Website, if applicable

Please post the information to this email address linksstaff@susans.org

An important part of one's transgender or intersex journey is to help others. Sharing information about supportive professional care is a great way to help our community. Your input is both vital and appreciated.

I guess I don't totally understand what you are trying to get at. 

I don't particularily like or agree with the HBSOC, but I have followed it "to a degree" so that I could obtain a legal prescription for hormones (instead of just buying them illegally).  I didn't make them the gatekeeper, they made themselves the gatekeepers.  As for the religious right, who cares what they say.

I am not sure how or why you happened to meet with "promenant members of the transsexual community", but personally I don't care about them.

I guess I am dense, but I am not sure what you are objecting to in the statement you have quoted from the Main Page of Susans.

Please help me to understand your viewpoint.

Sarah L.

Quote from: Godiva on July 16, 2007, 11:24:26 AM
There are many who have submitted to this standard of care within the transsexual community that wish to use it as a gate keeper, so to affirm their self perception of being more entitled and justified than those who have not conformed to the standard. It is being used to draw a distinction between, what they see, as two different groups within the transsexual community; one that is supported by the medical main stream and therefore are more socially acceptable, and the other that is not.

More entitled to what exactly?

When I go out to dinner, it's not like everyone knows how I transitioned, where my care comes from, etc. I'm not more "accepted" by the public because I'm now following the SOC.

And within the "community," there are tons of prejudices. Just look at the primary vs. secondary thread. It's the same way within ANY community though. It's just human nature.

But I'm not looking for acceptance by the "community," I'm looking to just live a normal life within the wider world.

QuoteI dare remind you that this is a very public forum on the Internet that is focused on a very controversial personal, and what should be, a very private issue. As fare as what the owners of this website value on this topic is in question. Please read the following quote from the main page of this sight. For you to assume support on how you feel about this issue from anyone associated with this Internet sight is very dangerous.

How is it *dangerous*? I don't quite understand what you're implying here?

We simply point out that HRT drugs are very, very dangerous and *highly* recommend that one only pursue them under a doctor's care, following the established medical guidelines.

~Kate~

Quote from: Sarah Louise on July 16, 2007, 11:41:43 AM
I guess I am dense, but I am not sure what you are objecting to in the statement you have quoted from the Main Page of Susans.

Please help me to understand your viewpoint.

Sarah L.

   Same for me. I don't quite grasp what is troubling you. I understand that you don't like being judged because you didn't go through the standards, but, beyond that, I'm a little confused. I really am interested, though.

  Also, I see no reason for others to judge you. I would just ignore those people.


Love,

Rebis  [-----> androgyne to the stars]

I can tell you there is a debate.  Honestly the SoC do not work for everybody.  I followed them (3 months intensive therapy) to get hormones through a doctor (and covered by insurance).  I was okay with this personally, honestly I wanted to work things out, but its not for everybody.  But I have issues with some of the guidelines.

Alot of very prominent TS writers and authors, namely Julia Serano, have been outspoken against the SoC gatekeeper policy.  There has also been alot of gruff about the SoC and the DSM. 

There does need to be medical standards, but I think the SoC is the only thing out there right now.  Things will get better as time goes on, the SoC is a better document than it used to be. 

Nobody really likes it, even professionals.  In DC there is a I follow it because I have to attitude.  In many places they completely ignore it for HRT. 

Quote from: Godiva on July 16, 2007, 11:24:26 AM
I dare remind you that this is a very public forum on the Internet that is focused on a very controversial personal, and what should be, a very private issue.

I agree that transition is a very personal issue, and therefore those individuals who judged you for not following the SoC have no right to do so, Godiva.

Personally, I think the SoC is a set of guidelines that, in some cases, helps people, while in others the SoC hurts them or prevents them from doing what they feel they need to do.  Like any set of guidelines, the SoC is not perfect, but it is all we have (in the US) right now. 

For me, the SoC has been helpful and I have been following it.  I went to therapy for almost 6 months before I obtained a letter from my counselor for HRT, and my endo also follows the SoC.  I will also probably wait to get my Orchi until I have undergone a year of RLE, just for my own sake of mind that this process of transition is right for me, not just because the standards say so.

~Fae

I only wish that I could be the recipient of such accusations [I love a good fight, be it verbal or physical].

I am completely circumventing the HBSOC proscribed process. I am not 'proud' of the fact, but a girl does what she must do to survive and if I was following religiously the HBSOC syllabus for transition, I would be dead right now.

I have been the 'victim' of ostracization and shunning in other TS 'support' forums for this very reason. It was not verbal nor overt, but it was manifested.

Frankly, I couldn't care less and I find the mentality depressingly puerile. The 'mechanics' of my transition are my business and mine alone.

I admire your free spirited attitude, but many people see your private decision concerning this mental health issue (gender dysphoria) that involves issues of sexuality as their business, and believe that what they think is best, is more important than what you believe is right for your own life. I am sorry, but this is fact; just look at what is being said by the religious right fanatics in America.

??

You said this in order to say what?

I have never nor will I ever deny that some wish to impose a paternalistic and arrogant attitude universally relative to transition/GID processing, largely for the sake personal agenda and egotism.

Where did you see me deny or disavow such?

But, even within the transsexual community the Harry Bingaman Standards of care are the cause of very heated debate and controversy. There are many who have submitted to this standard of care within the transsexual community that wish to use it as a gate keeper, so to affirm their self perception of being more entitled and justified than those who have not conformed to the standard. It is being used to draw a distinction between, what they see, as two different groups within the transsexual community; one that is supported by the medical main stream and therefore are more socially acceptable, and the other that is not.

I dare remind you that this is a very public forum on the Internet that is focused on a very controversial personal, and what should be, a very private issue. As fare as what the owners of this website value on this topic is in question. Please read the following quote from the main page of this sight. For you to assume support on how you feel about this issue from anyone associated with this Internet sight is very dangerous.

What on earth are you attempting to accuse me of?

I am solely stating how I perceive HBSOC relative to my transition and mine only.

I have not nor will I ever universally condemn application of HBSOC.

Where have you seen me state such a universal condemnation or even imply such a universal condemnation?

What on earth are you trying to say?

****************************************************************************************

Our Links Editor has established a new links directoy under Medical. It is named "Therapists and Counselors." The directory currently includes the USA and its states, Canada, Australia, and the United Kingdom. Other countries will be added based on input.

Our aim is to develop a readily accessible list of mental health professionals, preferably those who are transgender friendly and knowledgeable of gender identity and expression issues and of the HBIGDA (now WPATH) Harry Benjamin Standards of Care (SOC).

Susan's Place members are probably the best source of information concerning such professionals. In particular, you know whether or not your therapist/counselor or a family member's is supportive of gender variant people.

Please provide as much of the following information as possible, but don't let a lack of an item keep you from responding:

Name and credentials (e.g., LCSW, PhD, MSW, etc.)
Address, including any clinic or other organizational name
Phone Number
Email address, if available
Website, if applicable

Please post the information to this email address linksstaff@susans.org

An important part of one's transgender or intersex journey is to help others. Sharing information about supportive professional care is a great way to help our community. Your input is both vital and appreciated.

You cited this reference in order to say what?

[bold]

You are speaking to a girl who has been emotionally abused by people who possess such credentials, suffering serious emotional damage as a consequence.

I rest my case.

The SoC are a bunch of BS.

They ought to change the acronym to SoL, because that more accurately portends your future.

They are there for the benefit of the surgeons, to cover their ass, not for the benefit of the patients. They don't even do what they are intended to do, weed out inappropriate candidates. Anyone with enough time and money, especially money, gets through.

I have seen too many people obfuscated and damaged by these stupid arbitrary rules.
Enough is enough.

Quote from: Thundra on July 16, 2007, 11:24:30 PM
The SoC are a bunch of BS.

They ought to change the acronym to SoL, because that more accurately portends your future.

They are there for the benefit of the surgeons, to cover their ass, not for the benefit of the patients. They don't even do what they are intended to do, weed out inappropriate candidates. Anyone with enough time and money, especially money, gets through.

I have seen too many people obfuscated and damaged by these stupid arbitrary rules.
Enough is enough.

I fully concur, Thundra.

I would ask rhetorically, my sister: Given that both the existence and degree of my own TS is verified and indisputable and in the context of my age, life experience and intelligence, what need do I have to spend exorbitant amounts of money which I badly need for surgery on a gender therapist of unknown competence?

What possible benefit will be realized?

My biggest, most formidable problem that I am fighting to deal with is not my TS; it is the secondary  co-morbidities and concurrent chronic organic neurological conditions which plague me.

I do not need to spend my hard earned money in resolving these issues; my insurance will cover the treatment of such.

My own interfaces with gender therapists were...'generally negative'.

I won't deal with that nonsense, Thundra.

I just won't.

Quote from: Rhonda on July 17, 2007, 12:06:01 AM

I do not need to spend my hard earned money in resolving these issues; my insurance will cover the treatment of such.

My own interfaces with gender therapists were...'generally negative'.

I won't deal with that nonsense, Thundra.

I just won't.[/i][/size][/font][/color]

The SOC make a lot of sense to me - imperfect though they are - and they served me well in my transition.

But some of the Thai surgeons don't require SOC letters.  Sounds as if that's your route of choice, Rhonda.

Robyn

Rhonda:

I admire your free spirited attitude, but many people see your private decision concerning this mental health issue (gender dysphoria) that involves issues of sexuality as their business, and believe that what they think is best, is more important than what you believe is right for your own life. I am sorry, but this is fact; just look at what is being said by the religious right fanatics in America.

_____________________________________________________________


Godiva,

Before I go to sleep [forget this; I am taking tomorrow off] sweetie, let me just gently state that I am not angry with you, neither do I 'hate' you.

Mine was a heated and vociferous response to what was stated, that's all.

It is not my style nor is it appropriate to 'attack' the person.

I mean you no harm nor do I have any intention to maintain a 'grudge'.

Life is too short for such juvenile stupidity and we need to support each other, for in many cases we here are the only 'family' which have and create, for each other.

I would wish for you only love and only the best. 

Rhonda:

I believe you to be brilliant. I have been in education most of my life. It has been my job to spot the exceptional. I am wrong about many things in life, but am not usually wrong about this. I hope that you are finding a very special way to channel your passion, intensity, and enormous energies into something productively intellectual and creative. Seek to excel beyond all hopes and dreams, and touch the heavens.


Godiva

Quote from: Godiva on July 17, 2007, 06:06:27 AM
Rhonda:

I believe you to be brilliant. I have been in education most of my life. It has been my job to spot the exceptional. I am wrong about many things in life, but am not usually wrong about this. I hope that you are finding a very special way to channel your passion, intensity, and enormous energies into something productively intellectual and creative. Seek to excel beyond all hopes and dreams, and touch the heavens.


Godiva

You honor me, Godiva. Thank you.