Not to sound harsh but if she feels she has to be in control or influence you that isn't exactly a healthy mindset to be in for a relationship.

Quote from: EmeraldPerpugilliam on October 08, 2013, 08:38:47 AM
Not to sound harsh but if she feels she has to be in control or influence you that isn't exactly a healthy mindset to be in for a relationship.

Don't we all want to feel we have some control over our lives?

Now that a few days have passed, I'm finding it easier to sympathise with what she did. I mean, I still think it was wrong, and it hurt me like hell, but I understand that feeling of having it all welling up inside and just needing to talk to someone - anyone - about it. I mean, I felt just the same way.

And now that she's got it off her chest, she seems a lot calmer, like she's accepted what's going to happen and now it's not a question of trying to prevent it, but trying to manage her response to it as calmly and constructively as possible.

But yes, Kathyk, it's really, really hard to lose someone you've been with for that long - almost 32 years in our case - and also to wonder whether you ever really had him at all. Because for a wife there's that terrible feeling that 'he' was never the man she'd thought she'd marriage. So she can't help fearing that she threw away the best years of her life on something that was never real at all. I don't see it that way. But I can understand that she's thinking that - and that it's a devastating thought.

Quote from: Carlita on October 08, 2013, 09:37:32 AM
Don't we all want to feel we have some control over our lives?

Now that a few days have passed, I'm finding it easier to sympathise with what she did. I mean, I still think it was wrong, and it hurt me like hell, but I understand that feeling of having it all welling up inside and just needing to talk to someone - anyone - about it. I mean, I felt just the same way.

I hope that reconciliation is on your horizon, I really do.  But please, play it safe.  If you have only joint accounts with her, I strongly recommend you pull a couple hundred dollars at least out and sock it away just in case.  It's a good policy to have some good cash around anyway.  I hope you don't need it, I hope I'm just being paranoid because of my past experiences, but having a little operating capital onhand just in case can make a world of difference.

*hug*  Good luck; it isn't an easy road we are on, sister, but it ends in self-acceptance.  Something so precious that nothing on this world is sufficient to replace it.

Quote from: robinmack on October 08, 2013, 09:52:23 AM
I hope that reconciliation is on your horizon, I really do.  But please, play it safe.  If you have only joint accounts with her, I strongly recommend you pull a couple hundred dollars at least out and sock it away just in case.  It's a good policy to have some good cash around anyway.  I hope you don't need it, I hope I'm just being paranoid because of my past experiences, but having a little operating capital onhand just in case can make a world of difference.

*hug*  Good luck; it isn't an easy road we are on, sister, but it ends in self-acceptance.  Something so precious that nothing on this world is sufficient to replace it.

That's a very good idea... just to be safe in these difficult situations. Squirrel some away every week or two just in case (especially if you can see it on the horizon but it's not too close yet).

Don't worry, ladies - I have my own account! 

I'm sorry to hear about how your wife is reacting. What's really hard to understand is that you're the same person you've always been but YOU'RE happier. You still have the kind loving personality you've always had and likely even more so now since you're eliminating an internal conflict.

Best of luck. Hugs and kisses.

Jeannie

Quote from: Carlita on October 08, 2013, 10:07:03 AM
Don't worry, ladies - I have my own account! 

Glad to hear it... but cash is your friend.  Accounts can be frozen if particularly vicious sharks lawyers get involved.  It's possible her calm is coming from having a plan of action, rather than reconciliation.

Again, I sincerely hope this is not the case, but a girl can't be too careful! 

Quote from: robinmack on October 08, 2013, 10:16:58 AM
Glad to hear it... but cash is your friend.  Accounts can be frozen if particularly vicious sharks lawyers get involved.  It's possible her calm is coming from having a plan of action, rather than reconciliation.

Again, I sincerely hope this is not the case, but a girl can't be too careful!

I don't think we've got to that point, yet ... but I agree, a girl should put her money in a shark-proof cage! 

Quote from: Carlita on October 08, 2013, 11:56:33 AM
I don't think we've got to that point, yet ... but I agree, a girl should put her money in a shark-proof cage! 

Be very, very cautious about what precautions you take. ANY defensive actions on your part will be seen as aggressive. She's in a whole world of pain and that can lash out very quickly and violently.

Honestly, I'd say that trust is the only way that situations like this resolve with any degree of good outcome. Trust and love and lots and lots of open, unselfish conversation where you're expressing yourself honestly but without... how shall I put this?... without the pressure to 'make her' just be okay with the situation. She won't be for a while. Open up. Show her the you that you've been hiding. HRT will make this a bit easier and, perhaps you'd want to start that before doing any physical changes as I've found that T is a hell of an emotional numbing agent. Maybe you want to take her to talk with your counselor. Maybe you should go on a date! There's lots of ways to express how important she is to you and include her in this process rather than just 'doing it' which, to her feels like 'doing it to her'.

Be kind and gentle, tell her that you understand why she outed you to your daughters but tell her how much that hurt (and so on and so on). Remember that this is the woman that you raised a family with and that you love her.

Transition *is* an inherently selfish act, just by its very nature, and, in the rush of new expressions and emotions and everything else, we can get very VERY caught up in that selfishness and turn it from the self-interested kind to the self-absorbed kind. You seem to have a good head on your shoulders, use it with an open heart and you might be very surprised.

Also: talk way, way less. Touch, look at her, hold her, look into her eyes without a shield set up against possible hurt. Did I mention talking less is better? It's better.

Quote from: Carlita on October 07, 2013, 01:30:19 PM
Well that's 2¢ very well spent! If it doesn't seem totally contradictory, I'm going to rush it AND go slow! What I mean is, I fully intend to start some of the vital, but less obtrusive aspects of transition, like beard removal, as soon as I can. But I'm not going to rush into HRT, or presenting as a woman. That's mostly because I have another kid, my teenage son to consider. But you're absolutely right, the whole family needs time to come to terms with what is, obviously, an incredibly shocking, traumatic, frightening idea - I mean, any son or daughter, at any age is going to be freaked by the thought that the father they've always seen as kind of the original man in their lives, and the basic role-model for a boy is suddenly telling them s/he's a woman.

Carlita your heartache is easy for me to understand.  I feel I lived a life of denial while leaving clues everywhere.  I wore my hair very long and was girly in many ways.  I came out Bi over 30 years ago.  This was vey difficult for my son, then a teenager and now a grown man.  He invented stories about me being a policeman and became a macho, muscled, skin head.  He refused to talk to me for 10 years.  Now that I have been completely "out" for nine months he finds it easier to understand our lives and it makes "sense" to him that I was really "more of a woman."  We are closer than ever, if long distance, in sharing our truths.  Resolution for you and your family need not take so long.
I was unable to come out and accept myself as transgender but waiting did not make it any easier.  Waiting for others to accept us only gives them a sad veto power to wield.  Your love and concern have likely been demonstrated for your family for decades and that depth will remain.  I believe that your family will be able to avail themselves of your love and the wealth of accepting and educational resources in this wired and informed world.
One of the first steps I took was removing a life long beard that I hid behind.  I am finding that some of these steps that seem so important to me are mere hiccups for others.  I admire your resolve and thoughtful consideration of steps forward.  Your shared story also gives us further opportunity to understand and gain from the very excellent advice from our sisters here.  Thank you!

Big warm Hugs!

You're absolutely right, Victoria, about the need for me to respect all the grief that my wife is going through and acknowledge that, yes, transition is, by definition selfish (in that it's above all about trying to find our true selves, for our own good), just as she has to accept that this is something essential for me, and only undertaken after trying every possible thing I can think of to avoid it.

We both know that we have a choice. We can either try to find a way through this, as painful as it is, with as much love, trust and kindness as we can muster. Or we can make one another's lives hell, spend a fortune on lawyers, and wreck whatever chance our kids have of getting through the process themselves in reasonably good shape. The events of the past few days, and how horrible they made us both feel have really concentrated our minds on the need to be kind to one another if we possibly can, and we're trying to work out practical solutions that will enable us to get through the massive upheaval of the next few years.

And, Tessa, I'm sure you're right about the benefits of being honest .. and also the damage that can be caused by that combination of 'denial and clues'. I may not have liked the way my wife did it, but at least she brought things out into the open, and that may well be for the good in the long run.

So there may be a positive outcome to what was a very wounding event.

Quote from: Victoria Mitchell on October 08, 2013, 12:21:03 PM
Be very, very cautious about what precautions you take. ANY defensive actions on your part will be seen as aggressive. She's in a whole world of pain and that can lash out very quickly and violently.

Honestly, I'd say that trust is the only way that situations like this resolve with any degree of good outcome. Trust and love and lots and lots of open, unselfish conversation where you're expressing yourself honestly but without... how shall I put this?... without the pressure to 'make her' just be okay with the situation. She won't be for a while. Open up. Show her the you that you've been hiding. HRT will make this a bit easier and, perhaps you'd want to start that before doing any physical changes as I've found that T is a hell of an emotional numbing agent. Maybe you want to take her to talk with your counselor. Maybe you should go on a date! There's lots of ways to express how important she is to you and include her in this process rather than just 'doing it' which, to her feels like 'doing it to her'.

Be kind and gentle, tell her that you understand why she outed you to your daughters but tell her how much that hurt (and so on and so on). Remember that this is the woman that you raised a family with and that you love her.

Transition *is* an inherently selfish act, just by its very nature, and, in the rush of new expressions and emotions and everything else, we can get very VERY caught up in that selfishness and turn it from the self-interested kind to the self-absorbed kind. You seem to have a good head on your shoulders, use it with an open heart and you might be very surprised.

Also: talk way, way less. Touch, look at her, hold her, look into her eyes without a shield set up against possible hurt. Did I mention talking less is better? It's better.

That is very helpful to anyone in transition with family, I think. Thank you!

Oh, one other thing ... the only problem I have with your advice, Victoria is: 'Talk less.'

I'm sure you're right. In fact, I know you are ... but as may be obvious from this thread, silence is not my strongpoint!! 

Quote from: Carlita on October 08, 2013, 12:54:15 PM
Oh, one other thing ... the only problem I have with your advice, Victoria is: 'Talk less.'

I'm sure you're right. In fact, I know you are ... but as may be obvious from this thread, silence is not my strongpoint!! 

Just because the advice is next to impossible to take. . . .

I have the same exact problem. In fact, I'd take that advice with some temperance. Sometimes silence can be too silent. My wife was silent for 2 months before she opened up a little. I have been staying silent with my parents and finally wrote them a 3 page letter with my history, my plan going forward, and that I'm not going to take derision (from people I love - the street kind I'll get used to).

I thought I'd lost my parents for good - there has been no communications since I sent the letter (granted... Sunday - so just a few days). My mother was watching the kids today and we had a good talk when I got home and she was leaving. I had a lot of tears to stop and clean up before I went to get my son off the bus (I had a good 5 minutes... which is not that simple anymore, but far easier than in a year, I think).

The words you choose are important... the words you choose not to say are more important.
(And sometimes I'm just so frustrated or angry I reverse the two )

Quote from: Carlita on October 08, 2013, 12:54:15 PM
Oh, one other thing ... the only problem I have with your advice, Victoria is: 'Talk less.'

I'm sure you're right. In fact, I know you are ... but as may be obvious from this thread, silence is not my strongpoint!! 

Hi Carlita,
Sorry to hear that you are going through a rough spot but I think you know at this stage that it comes with the territory. You have already received a lot of excellent feedback and I'd give a special mention to what Victoria said. Transitioning can be such an all consuming endeavor that we can forget that other people have needs too. It's such an inherent part of the journey that we need to pro-actively work on countering it, for example by deliberately doing things and creating events which show how important our loved ones remain for us and also quite simply demonstrating that life for everyone can go on both during and after a transition.

Also, I came out to my (young adult) kids in summer 2011 and they were probably initially as shocked as yours were, especially my eldest who asked me to leave her some time to digest it all. I respected this and overall, took a very softly, softly approach to letting them discover the hidden me. For example, they didn't see me presenting female for almost 15 months after this.

End of the day, they have all come to accept the change very well and recently all three even contributed letters in support of my civil identity change. More importantly than anything, following this two year period of readjustment, we are proablably closer today than at any time since I left my first wife 14 years ago.

Time is a great healer and if you remain true to both yourself and those who count for you, the light will finally shine through!
Hugs
Donna

When I came out, my eldest son cut me off from him and his family. I've not seen my granddaughters by him in 15 months now. At first I was angry but then I realized that this was not my fault. It was his choice and I cannot live his life for him. I've learned to forgive him, not because I agree with him, but because I don't wish to hold a grudge. My door is ever open for him, his spouse, and their daughters should they wish to speak with me again.

And if they don't, that's their choice. I'll have to accept that. But it taught me that postponing facing my own issues, dodging them, coming up with excuses why I could never transition in the past all for the "sake" of my family - all this was wrong and I should have just done what I wanted to do. They would have either dealt with it or not.

Quote from: LizMarie on October 08, 2013, 04:10:46 PM
When I came out, my eldest son cut me off from him and his family. I've not seen my granddaughters by him in 15 months now. At first I was angry but then I realized that this was not my fault. It was his choice and I cannot live his life for him. I've learned to forgive him, not because I agree with him, but because I don't wish to hold a grudge. My door is ever open for him, his spouse, and their daughters should they wish to speak with me again.

And if they don't, that's their choice. I'll have to accept that. But it taught me that postponing facing my own issues, dodging them, coming up with excuses why I could never transition in the past all for the "sake" of my family - all this was wrong and I should have just done what I wanted to do. They would have either dealt with it or not.

But so sad I really hope they just need some time to come around! I'm trying to repair the damage I've done in my own son over his 8 years. I'm certain I imposed some pretty strong ideas about gender in him, but at least he's young. I wonder if others pushed stronger gender roles on their kids because of their own hidden condition?

 

the more I listen to these stories the more I realize that coming out is really
an act of self love which is seldom understood, mistaken for selfish act, or,
worse. My thoughts are towards you and your life. be careful

Quote from: Marina mtf on October 09, 2013, 06:59:56 AM


the more I listen to this stories the more I realize that coming out is really
an act of self love which is seldom understood, mistaken for selfish act, or,
worse. My thoughts are towards you and your life. be careful

I had that exact "conversation" (argument, diatribe) with my wife last night. I didn't get much sleep... but it worked out ok.

Sometimes the 'wrong' words help too! I was clearly pissed and upset that she really believed I lied to her because of the memories I've been surfacing. I was also upset that she thought a messy divorce was in her best intrest (something she let out online to me). I think how upset I was got through more than the words... but it all worked out well. I told her I came out to her, and am going through with this for the *best* interests of the family. I have no idea if she'll believe that... I also got her to agree that a mediated divorce would be best for the kids (something she cares about) and that I'm more than willing to negotiate fairly. Hopefully that sticks.

The way she was talking (about raking me over the coals, basically)... I'd end up losing my job and everyone would be worse off. I have no idea if that's true... but I can't see how I'd live on the worst-case amount I can come up with (around $1000 / mo after taxes and everything - you can't get an apartment in my area for much less than that).

Quote from: kabit on October 09, 2013, 07:15:23 AM
The way she was talking (about raking me over the coals, basically)... I'd end up losing my job and everyone would be worse off. I have no idea if that's true... but I can't see how I'd live on the worst-case amount I can come up with (around $1000 / mo after taxes and everything - you can't get an apartment in my area for much less than that).

The worst case scenario is obviously just that... and there are people who make it on much less than $1000 anywhere.  For one thing, there are a lot of retired people who supplement their income by renting out rooms.  Your local LGBT center probably has some knowledge of "family" friendly places like that.  Of course there is a risk in transitioning of losing everything... it has happened before, and I'm certain it will happen again.  I think that's what it has to come down to, for some of us, at least.  I strongly recommend talking to your therapist about all this stuff; they can help you plan, and help you determine just how strongly you feel about transitioning, how quickly you need to, etc.

For many, many people (and I fear I am included in this list) the choice is clear:  emotional or physical death at some point down the line as your biological gender, finally giving up when you just can't make it anymore, or starting over again in a new gender, with the ability to be yourself, but without much of a safety net.  The trouble for us late transitioners is that the later you start, the more entrenched you are in your current career, and the more money you need to continue your current lifestyle, and the more obligations you have.  I wish I had started transitioning when I could just take a job anywhere... but then again, I would not have had the money and resources to transition in the relative comfort I enjoy now.  I do not want to think about what transitioning would have been like when I had to go through the couch to scrape up money for ramen...  *shiver*

I look at it this way:  The worst might very well happen.  My wonderful, supportive, loving girlfriend could die tonight, or tomorrow.  Who knows?  I could lose my job and be unable to find another, so I would lose my house and likely sleep in my car for a while.  In the area where I live, the food-banks are all tied to conservative churches and do not serve the LGBT community.  I'd have to find a new job, with no money and little chance of SRS in the future.  So, no job, no girlfriend, no house, the car might even die on me, or I might be unable to get gas.  I don't *think* my family would let me be homeless, but then again they might not be able to accept me for who I am.  When I think about all that stuff, and I *still* want to express myself as a woman because putting up with all of that is *worth* it to avoid the certain doom of continuing to present myself as the wrong gender... well, that's when I knew I needed to transition.

From what I've seen, you may not be there yet, but there is an excellent chance that you will get there.  There is a reason the medical industry takes gender dysphoria seriously: it's because it can be/often is *deadly* if it is not acted on... and the longer it is delayed, the worse things get as a rule.  There is a treatment that is, according to some studies, 95% effective... and that is to transition. 

Here's hoping, Sis, that it all works out for you.  I'm sorry if this post is over the top... I'm writing it because it's what I feel *I* needed when I was in your situation years ago.  If it is off the mark or causes you pain, please accept my apologies.

*hug*