Hi.

Is there a difference between men and women . i know that answer very well. yet what if you join them both together so you can not seperate one from the other,  yet retian some of both .

Now im not talking about whats  been learned, because that is what is very importaint, if not then you could allmost act in a role of ether quite well as some have, and fool people though you wont fool your self till you belive you are ether a male or female regurdless what you have or not between your legs,

Again what if your hormones are different some of both here we go again thats not learned. nore can be . thats from long before birth,

When your intersexed you dont have a learned male or female detail going on , its with in you again long before birth,
If you meet me youd be trying to figger me out am i male or a female.  well both as it is so i give mixed messiges  so youd be confused till you get to know me then youd understand im female plus male .

So as some have they discount who i am as a female , though the many 1000's i know accepted long ago i am female just different thats all.

You feel as though youv failed,  i did fail outright, no brain or mind as a male never thought as one nore could  xwired miss wired what ever took place mixed my wires, or i am female with male detail,, some body well did  detail  so how ever you look at it we can be different .

Yes i know totaly i failed as a sorposed male or percived as one, was not who i was / am.

I know as a woman / female i discount myself & am embarrised of who i am  yet remember we had no say how we were to be born so dont take it on board we have a life dont we so we should just get on with life & enjoy being who we are,  dont put your self down i know what its like not a good place i can tell you. dont try and prove what you are , just ...be .....who you are, others will.

...noeleena...

Quote from: -Emily- on October 10, 2013, 12:02:33 AM
Oh, the words of true wisdom . Many of us have had successes as men - we can see it in disbelieving eyes of our family members, friends, colleagues when we come out to them - "But... but You are so /insert Your adjective here/... and never was /insert another opposite one here /. Well, in the long term, that did not help us and we are where we are now .
ErinM, You have powertools - I have swords, armor and survivalist stuff .

And who says women can't use any of those eh?

Quote from: Dreams2014 on October 10, 2013, 03:21:43 AM
And who says women can't use any of those eh?

Oh, I still can Except, now, when I take a sword and make a few swings in the air, i first note how heavy it has become, and secondly I am feeling like "Ewww.... what a stupid thing, which is made to harm other people..." This is what the HRT does to Your brain . I also tried to fit some of my old stuff a couple of weeks ago and could not disregard how strange and totally off I looked in the steel helmet.

"I feel like I've failed as a man."

Excuse me for laughing out loud but when I was a teenager and struggling with my identity (well, OTHERS were struggling with my identity; I wasn't!) I wondered "What if  I was SUPPOSED to live this life as a man? What if that was the purpose?" and I was failing miserably! I never had a girlfriend (not in that way) and wasn't even remotely interested - now boys, on the other hand were a different story! I never had sex with a girl (well once just before SRS but that was a joke - long story!) but I had been with a man on more than one occasion but knew I wasn't Gay because I didn't want to be with a man as a male. The idea of being a father turned my stomach but I would have jumped at the chance to be a mother! My feelings toward babies was very strongly maternal and not at all paternal. All in all I was a total failure as a male but a natural as a female.

So what if I was  SUPPOSED to be male in this life and failed? Would that mean I would have to come back and try again in the next life? I came to the conclusion that if that was  the case, I was going to reincarnated again and again forever because I just couldn't get into the swing of it AT ALL! And that's why I laugh at the thought of "failing as a man". 

Quote from: Northern Jane on October 10, 2013, 05:28:38 AM
So what if I was  SUPPOSED to be male in this life and failed? Would that mean I would have to come back and try again in the next life? I came to the conclusion that if that was  the case, I was going to reincarnated again and again forever because I just couldn't get into the swing of it AT ALL! And that's why I laugh at the thought of "failing as a man". 

Well, I have nothing against being a male in my next life - could be lot of fun, by the way. But I just dont see a purpose for being born with male body but with female-wired brains - that's were I struggle.
I am sure, if I had normal male-wired brains, I would be quite a nice male specimen... There are many male disciplines were transwomen-in-denial have continuously exceeded cis-guys. Imagine, what we would have accomplised with male-wiring .

Quote from: Dreams2014 on October 10, 2013, 03:21:43 AM
And who says women can't use any of those eh?

The funny thing is long before I started transition I had a co-worker find it difficult to believe that I used let alone owned a drill.

Apparently "nice guys" as she called me can't.

There was a lot of expectation that I never lived up to. Thankfully my dad never forced me into too many male activities. I only wish he got to meet the real me.

Quote from: Megan on October 09, 2013, 08:15:01 PM
I want to give you a big big hug! Minus never having a child I have the exact same feelings on "trying" to be a man that I never was.

*hugs*
because you said you wanted it.

i can only shake my head at my younger self. honestly, what was i thinking... now i'll just do my best to be me, should be much harder to fail at that.

Quote from: -Emily- on October 10, 2013, 05:40:51 AM...... But I just dont see a purpose for being born with male body but with female-wired brains - that's were I struggle ......

I hear ya! If there is a god, he's got a LOT of explaining to do when I get to the other side!!!!!

Quote from: Northern Jane on October 10, 2013, 10:25:48 AM
I hear ya! If there is a god, he's got a LOT of explaining to do when I get to the other side!!!!!

There will be a reckoning!!!

Very much. I've felt like a failure as a man for years. I realize some of that is just my own perfectionism, but even accounting for that, those feelings remained. I felt like I was expected to "be a man," yet I never had the slightest clue how. Realizing now why that is has actually brought a certain sense of relief.

Quote from: robinmack on October 09, 2013, 03:45:10 PM
And the sense of failure could just be the last vestiges of social programming.  Males are taught all their life that to be female is to be weak.  To cry is to be weak, because that acting "like a girl".  To express your feelings="weak"="girl".  To not be strong enough="weak"="girl", and it goes on and on.  I never bought into that crap, I hated it, but it still had an effect on me.

This. I too always felt this was nonsense, but its impact on me has been profound nevertheless. I've always had a soft and vulnerable nature, and it always bothered me that having feelings or any sort of weakness was perfectly acceptable for women, but somehow invalidated your worth as a man. Even knowing that was bunk didn't stop it from doing damage to me.

Quote from: Dreams2014 on October 09, 2013, 04:33:14 PM
Like I've not had enough sex or something? It sounds so primitive, and I know it's ridiculous

It's not ridiculous, I feel it too sometimes. For me, though, at least, the only times I've succeeded as a man was when I showed my feminine side. Those of us that are good really actors are out in Hollywood, making millions, and not caring what role they portray, as long is it pays good. Most of us are not good actors and have no idea how to accurately portray any man persona. Why should you care that you are not a good actor if that is not your chosen profession?

Quote from: Heather on October 10, 2013, 12:29:34 AM
Failed as a man? Oh please being a man is so easy in fact that's why bumped up the difficulty level and became a woman. But really I don't see myself as failing anything being a man wasn't for me but I sure didn't fail at it. I don't fail at anything and I proved that even if you put me in a male body this girl still succeeds and shows the men how it's done. 

LMAO!

I don't feel like I failed as being a man. I had a pretty good run at it. I feel more frustrated as to why I can't just accept it and live a decent life as a man. That part is upsetting. I also feel like I've failed as a partner in my relationship. That's another difficult challenge to work with.

I was never a very good man, in the sense that I could do manlyish things. I've always been some artsy femmy guy and did whatever I could to diminish my manliness as much as I though I could get away with. I had a very good sex life and had multiple relationships and that was always enjoyable (and still is, the sex I mean) but it wasn't that fulfilling. I remember that after every breakup, I would always end up doing something to "reward" myself. Like now I don't have a GF I can go ahead and shave my legs again. Things like that.

I think I always expected I would grow into my role as a man, and that never happened. It just got worse the longer I dragged it out and after I had done the things I expected to enjoy as a man (mostly sleeping around), there wasn't anything left about it I desired and I was basically done with it.

Quote from: TiffanyT on October 10, 2013, 11:33:23 PM
I think I always expected I would grow into my role as a man, and that never happened. It just got worse the longer I dragged it out.

Curiously, but I have the same experience. Yet, as my transition unfolds, I feel like while I am finally becoming what I have always been inside, I am at the same time becoming a better and more mature person as well. I often wonder, if that is why teen girls are so much smarter, intelligent and composed than boys of the same age, who are just being torn apart by effects of testosterone...

Quote from: -Emily- on October 11, 2013, 02:08:49 AM
Curiously, but I have the same experience. Yet, as my transition unfolds, I feel like while I am finally becoming what I have always been inside, I am at the same time becoming a better and more mature person as well. I often wonder, if that is why teen girls are so much smarter, intelligent and composed than boys of the same age, who are just being torn apart by effects of testosterone...

I gotta say, testosterone is a very immature and primitive hormone. It clouds judgement. At least it does in my experience.

Quote from: Dreams2014 on October 09, 2013, 03:07:33 PM
Does any other MtF ever get this?

Perhaps I'm just fretting. But it's really confusing and difficult to get my head around this gender issue. I've said before that I only tend to feel happy in my gender when sex is on the brain, and that's probably due to the power of testosterone over my body, as it drives the urges.

But then I also have this nagging feeling, like I've not done enough sexually as a man, and I've only had one long term girlfriend and there's so much more as a man that I could experience. I have this horrible feeling in my mind that if I transition it's like I'm not good enough to be a man? Not in any way saying that men are better than woman, but I mean me personally. Like I've failed. I don't know if I'm articulating this well enough, or if I'm just talking nonsense, but I'd like to know if anybody else has felt like this.

Oh gender issues are far from easy.

I'm going to read all the posts once I a get a chance, but I wanted to comment on the op for now.

I'm a 24 year old virgin and never had a girlfriend.  Sometimes I think that sounds pathetic, but honestly I never wanted a girlfriend nor do I ever hope to have "male" sex in any way.  So, it's not a failure in my eyes.  More like a success to avoid something I never wanted.  Plus, my failures aren't always because of my gender, so to speak.  Sure, the hardships are real and some were very much present because of gender issues, but my failures are a mixture of circumstances and me failing to meet the task at hand.  The same can be said of my successes.  Part of it is hard work and the other is the circumstances that helped allow me to thrive.  Most success and failures are a mixture of circumstance and personal responsibility; however, gender issues can come into play (and often do in my case) but gender isn't all we are and being cis doesn't guarantee that we would have succeeded where we failed.  Dysphoria adds to it in a big way, but it isn't why we fail.   At the end of the day, I'll be the same person after transitioning.  Yeah, I'll be happier, more confident and like how I look, but that doesn't change the fact that I still must deal with my current flaws and past failures.  Transitioning can be great and a huge life saver, just don't expect it to be a constant SOS because you will be disappointed when you realize it can't fix everything.

Plus, I don't no what it is to be a failure of a man or a successful man.  I'm just a woman with both failures and successes.  That's just my take.

Nonetheless, I do understand the concept and believe it will open some great discussion.  I look forward to reading the rest of this.   

Quote from: Dreams2014 on October 11, 2013, 02:10:49 AM
I gotta say, testosterone is a very immature and primitive hormone. It clouds judgement. At least it does in my experience.

I would not say that estrogen facilites towards clear and streamlined way of thinking either... At least not from my personal experience . T tends to cloud judgment during dangerous situations or when the aggression is triggered for some reason, but it does so because all self-preservation and survival systems in the body are injected with T and adrenaline. Whereas E gives that super-emotional smily mood without apparent reason, when I suddenly feel like I am the happiest person in the world and I just wanna share it with others .

Quote from: Dreams2014 on October 09, 2013, 03:07:33 PM
Does any other MtF ever get this?

Perhaps I'm just fretting. But it's really confusing and difficult to get my head around this gender issue. I've said before that I only tend to feel happy in my gender when sex is on the brain, and that's probably due to the power of testosterone over my body, as it drives the urges.

But then I also have this nagging feeling, like I've not done enough sexually as a man, and I've only had one long term girlfriend and there's so much more as a man that I could experience. I have this horrible feeling in my mind that if I transition it's like I'm not good enough to be a man? Not in any way saying that men are better than woman, but I mean me personally. Like I've failed. I don't know if I'm articulating this well enough, or if I'm just talking nonsense, but I'd like to know if anybody else has felt like this.

Dreams2014 - This post, and your later comments are verrrry close to how I feel currently!!

Yes I feel like I'm failing as a man, and I do feel I have responsibility to be one both socially and biologically. I do realise that alot of this socialisation pressures etc, but I do also feel quite conflicted as to whether I as a man am worth more than the composite male/female I may become (because I identify as androgyne). This issue and your question is a VERY personal one indeed. I doubt they'll be much commonality in the answers.

Also - yes I do very much feel that my sex drive says no but my mind says yes, too. My sex drive wants me to remain male but my mind is constantly genderfluid at best, with a major leaning to feminine presentation and various other aspects. Interestingly, I was about to make a post which talked about the (much maligned) concept of genetic males transitioning because their sexual desires tell them to, and how I felt that in my case my sex drive was telling me NOT to take hormones, instead of telling me too - which is the usual narrative, apparently.

Also as noted in another reply to this post - if sexuality is the only affiliation to your gender, than that's a very shaky foundation on which to build a solid gender identity. And that is EXACTLY how I feel about myself. I adores my sexuality, I like the feelings of being turned on and being intimate, and I would hate to loose that, it would be devestating to never feel any attraction or frisson of excitement again. Other than that though, there's not much about being male that I genuinely identify with.

May I message you Dreams2014? As I feel we may have some commonalities in our way of thinking and feeling, which could be good to talk about. :-)

Quote from: learningtolive on October 11, 2013, 03:05:02 AM
I'm going to read all the posts once I a get a chance, but I wanted to comment on the op for now.

I'm a 24 year old virgin and never had a girlfriend.  Sometimes I think that sounds pathetic, but honestly I never wanted a girlfriend nor do I ever hope to have "male" sex in any way.  So, it's not a failure in my eyes.  More like a success to avoid something I never wanted.  Plus, my failures aren't always because of my gender, so to speak.  Sure, the hardships are real and some were very much present because of gender issues, but my failures are a mixture of circumstances and me failing to meet the task at hand.  The same can be said of my successes.  Part of it is hard work and the other is the circumstances that helped allow me to thrive.  Most success and failures are a mixture of circumstance and personal responsibility; however, gender issues can come into play (and often do in my case) but gender isn't all we are and being cis doesn't guarantee that we would have succeeded where we failed.  Dysphoria adds to it in a big way, but it isn't why we fail.   At the end of the day, I'll be the same person after transitioning.  Yeah, I'll be happier, more confident and like how I look, but that doesn't change the fact that I still must deal with my current flaws and past failures.  Transitioning can be great and a huge life saver, just don't expect it to be a constant SOS because you will be disappointed when you realize it can't fix everything.

Plus, I don't no what it is to be a failure of a man or a successful man.  I'm just a woman with both failures and successes.  That's just my take.

Nonetheless, I do understand the concept and believe it will open some great discussion.  I look forward to reading the rest of this.

Thanks for the insight L2L.

To be honest I know many trans woman were virgins pre transition, but I'm not. I had a long term girlfriend, who I loved dearly. I've had multiple sexual partners, all women. And once upon a time I used to love sex as a man. Somewhere down the line, dysphoria manifested itself. And now sex as man has lost almost all of its appeal. And its only in those times that I like being male, because of the sex. But my sexual encounters are few and far between. I thought about it a lot, and came to the realization that It's only in those times that I want to be male. When I think rationally I know in my mind that I am a woman, so on Monday I go to the GP and get the ball rolling. It's got to be done.

Quote from: "I'm Stella Stanhope, and that's why I drink". on October 11, 2013, 07:55:46 AM
Dreams2014 - This post, and your later comments are verrrry close to how I feel currently!!

Yes I feel like I'm failing as a man, and I do feel I have responsibility to be one both socially and biologically. I do realise that alot of this socialisation pressures etc, but I do also feel quite conflicted as to whether I as a man am worth more than the composite male/female I may become (because I identify as androgyne). This issue and your question is a VERY personal one indeed. I doubt they'll be much commonality in the answers.

Also - yes I do very much feel that my sex drive says no but my mind says yes, too. My sex drive wants me to remain male but my mind is constantly genderfluid at best, with a major leaning to feminine presentation and various other aspects. Interestingly, I was about to make a post which talked about the (much maligned) concept of genetic males transitioning because their sexual desires tell them to, and how I felt that in my case my sex drive was telling me NOT to take hormones, instead of telling me too - which is the usual narrative, apparently.

Also as noted in another reply to this post - if sexuality is the only affiliation to your gender, than that's a very shaky foundation on which to build a solid gender identity. And that is EXACTLY how I feel about myself. I adores my sexuality, I like the feelings of being turned on and being intimate, and I would hate to loose that, it would be devestating to never feel any attraction or frisson of excitement again. Other than that though, there's not much about being male that I genuinely identify with.

May I message you Dreams2014? As I feel we may have some commonalities in our way of thinking and feeling, which could be good to talk about. :-)

Hey Stella,

I appreciate the comment! It does reassure me to know that somebody else feels the same way I do, and faces the same conflicts in their mind. What you've said is pretty much how I feel, minus the Androgynous part, as I feel for me I either remain as I am or make a transition to be female.

Of course you can message me xx

Quote from: "I'm Stella Stanhope, and that's why I drink". on October 11, 2013, 07:55:46 AM

Also as noted in another reply to this post - if sexuality is the only affiliation to your gender, than that's a very shaky foundation on which to build a solid gender identity. And that is EXACTLY how I feel about myself. I adores my sexuality, I like the feelings of being turned on and being intimate, and I would hate to loose that, it would be devestating to never feel any attraction or frisson of excitement again.

This has sort of been my problem too. I totally wanted a sex change operation when I was 8 or 9, it was pretty much all I talked and thought about, after I heard it was possible, up until I hit puberty. Sexuality really complicates things for me, as I love sex, and don't entirely mind having with women it as a guy does. It's sometimes easier to define what you are not, rather than what you are. I know that I am not a man, but I also know that I am not asexual.