Quote from: robinmack on October 09, 2013, 09:52:52 AM
From what I've seen, you may not be there yet, but there is an excellent chance that you will get there.  There is a reason the medical industry takes gender dysphoria seriously: it's because it can be/often is *deadly* if it is not acted on... and the longer it is delayed, the worse things get as a rule.  There is a treatment that is, according to some studies, 95% effective... and that is to transition. 

Here's hoping, Sis, that it all works out for you.  I'm sorry if this post is over the top... I'm writing it because it's what I feel *I* needed when I was in your situation years ago.  If it is off the mark or causes you pain, please accept my apologies.

*hug*

No, it's good!

I think I'm over the edge in terms of needing to transition. I'm so incredibly happy now that I'm finally doing something that I can see that I was never really happy before. I've mentioned (too much... I'm trying not to) that forcing it back into a male shell would kill me. Not suicide - I don't think I could - but definitely something that wouldn't be good for the family. I know it to be true.

I understand the worst case could happen. My wife loves her kids a lot and wants to keep everything she has now and more. We're definitely not going through this soon, though... and she's starting to realize that there has to be give and take. She could lose everything too, and there's a very narrow margian where we can both make it through this and live at our means. My job depends directly on my financial well being (I am gov't and would likely lose my job if I were not able to maintain a steady residence or had problems paying my bills). If she does not have my child support (which would be gone if I weren't employed), she would not be able to afford whatever she ends up doing.

I'm just looking at worst case. She could cause that, but she's smart and I don't think she will. We're also aiming at being still friendly (not quite there yet) and non-mediation would probably destroy that possibility.

I'm an optimist, which doesn't always do well for me under these circumstances, but I'm still most happy with myself as a woman. I am a woman and need to work toward presenting female. Hopefully many of those changes can at least be started before divorce. And while I'm wishing... hopefully they remove the "no gender transformations" exclusion from my health insurance so I can afford HRT... (or at least just exclude gender surgeries, which I'm personally fine with right now).

Divorce is the #1 issue for today's therapy appointment

Divorce is a funny thing. My spouse was shocked at my initial revelation to her 18 months ago. But she rapidly immersed herself in books and articles to understand it and was even talking about staying together for the first few months. Then she took a month vacation to spend with her parents. When she returned she flatly announced we were divorcing. Just like that. And she insisted that we needed to tell our adult children so that's when we did.

We're still planning to divorce sometime in the next two years or so. We're staying together for the moment as she does not have a job and wants to return to school to refresh her resume. I'm ok with that. We're better off financially in the current situation than me trying to support her and myself separately. But she's also warned me that she may not make it all the way through school without emotionally being devastated as I transition so she may move out before that point (at which point we'd at least legally separate).

The reason I bring this up is because you can never be quite sure how your spouse is going to react, or how their reaction may change as time goes on. What seems perfectly fine can suddenly become completely unacceptable to them.

Just be prepared and aware that this is a process and your spouse's position can change at any time.

Quote from: Donna E on October 08, 2013, 03:45:10 PM
Hi Carlita,
Sorry to hear that you are going through a rough spot but I think you know at this stage that it comes with the territory. You have already received a lot of excellent feedback and I'd give a special mention to what Victoria said. Transitioning can be such an all consuming endeavor that we can forget that other people have needs too. It's such an inherent part of the journey that we need to pro-actively work on countering it, for example by deliberately doing things and creating events which show how important our loved ones remain for us and also quite simply demonstrating that life for everyone can go on both during and after a transition.

Also, I came out to my (young adult) kids in summer 2011 and they were probably initially as shocked as yours were, especially my eldest who asked me to leave her some time to digest it all. I respected this and overall, took a very softly, softly approach to letting them discover the hidden me. For example, they didn't see me presenting female for almost 15 months after this.

End of the day, they have all come to accept the change very well and recently all three even contributed letters in support of my civil identity change. More importantly than anything, following this two year period of readjustment, we are proablably closer today than at any time since I left my first wife 14 years ago.

Time is a great healer and if you remain true to both yourself and those who count for you, the light will finally shine through!
Hugs
Donna

Thank you Donna, our words are always so helpful and reassuring.

It's so hard to balance ones own needs with those of ones family. For example, I saw my therapist yesterday and finally, definitlvely made the decision at least to start transition - a huge moment for me after decades of agonising about it.

Anyway, I'm going to have to take it gently because I don't want to come out in public until my son has left school in almost three years time. The one thing I want and need to do quickly is to laser the remaining dark areas of my beard before it all goes grey - which it's doing very fast! So I talked to my wife this morning. She accepted that I really didn't have any choice other than at least to start transition ... but then she said that I could not even have a single laser session as long as we're living under the same roof. She also says she doesn't want a divorce.

How on earth can I find a way through that?

Quote from: Carlita on October 10, 2013, 06:44:48 AMSo I talked to my wife this morning. She accepted that I really didn't have any choice other than at least to start transition ... but then she said that I could not even have a single laser session as long as we're living under the same roof. She also says she doesn't want a divorce.

How on earth can I find a way through that?

Carlita, your wife is afraid, pure and simple.

The good news is that can be cured, the bad news is that curing a fearful person
can result in violence, stress, years of sorrow.

The best you can do, but only you know where to stand, is to try to have her
understand you fully, using the (narrow) attention span which she offers to you.

Little by little, drop by drop, a dent will form in the stone. But you need patience.

Quote from: Marina mtf on October 10, 2013, 06:59:48 AM
Carlita, your wife is afraid, pure and simple.

The good news is that can be cured, the bad news is that curing a fearful person
can result in violence, stress, years of sorrow.

The best you can do, but only you know where to stand, is to try to have her
understand you fully, using the (narrow) attention span which she offers to you.

Little by little, drop by drop, a dent will form in the stone. But you need patience.

You're absolutely right. Of course you are. But it's so hard to be patient when one has waited decades to transition, finally decided to do it ... and then you have to wait for even more more months to go by.

I know that's selfish. But I'm sure any other women here who've struggled and struggled with the whole idea of transition - particularly those with wives and children - will know that when one finally knows that the time is right, all the fear and trepidation is mixed with a kind of giddy excitement ... as though ones soul has finally been set free. My soul, of course, is female. And she's longing to make herself seen and known to the world after so many years in hiding.

She's controlling you and you are letting her. If your need to stay married and be with her outweighs your need to transition, then you're going to allow her to control you. At some point you're going to have to make a choice. All of us have only so many years on this earth. You get to choose to live your life for you or for someone else. I'm not going to say either choice is right or wrong. You do what you feel you must do. But whatever choice you make, make it yourself.

Quote from: Carlita on October 10, 2013, 12:00:49 PM
You're absolutely right. Of course you are. But it's so hard to be patient when one has waited decades to transition, finally decided to do it ... and then you have to wait for even more more months to go by.

I know that's selfish. But I'm sure any other women here who've struggled and struggled with the whole idea of transition - particularly those with wives and children - will know that when one finally knows that the time is right, all the fear and trepidation is mixed with a kind of giddy excitement ... as though ones soul has finally been set free. My soul, of course, is female. And she's longing to make herself seen and known to the world after so many years in hiding.

I'm not a parent, nor will I ever be one most likely, but I think I can understand how she is feeling.  She's reacting much like my mother did for the first 3 or 4 months she knew.  She got stressed, angry with me, and then started beating herself up thinking it was something she had done. 

In the end after stressing that this is something I have to do, I don't want it, I didn't ask for it. I'd live as a boy if I could. I simply cannot, and this MUST be done.  Don't let her lock you in, you aren't selfish.  I'd imagine you are at the very least in your mid 40's to 50's, that is MORE than enough time being selfless to your true feelings.  MORE than enough of your life being put on hold.  If you truly want things to go right, I'd say just go get the damn lasers.  She can say all she wants, if she wants to leave then so be it.  You need control of yourself.  She says she doesn't want a divorce, if she's serious then she'll probably come back.  I just really think you need control of your own life now.

Quote from: Carlita on October 10, 2013, 12:00:49 PM
You're absolutely right. Of course you are. But it's so hard to be patient when one has waited decades to transition, finally decided to do it ... and then you have to wait for even more more months to go by.

I know that's selfish. But I'm sure any other women here who've struggled and struggled with the whole idea of transition - particularly those with wives and children - will know that when one finally knows that the time is right, all the fear and trepidation is mixed with a kind of giddy excitement ... as though ones soul has finally been set free. My soul, of course, is female. And she's longing to make herself seen and known to the world after so many years in hiding.

I know about how hard it is to be told to stop, or to slow down, or to wait... especially if you're somewhere in the middle ages (I'm 35). Unfortunately, I've been left to myself to set up my timeline because the family that could have cared to help (my parents, my wife) decided to openly hate me or attack me instead. Those things are getting better and I think my timeline is more than fair (I feel like I've said it a million times: AAs ASAP and E in May/June)... but it still hurts - them and me.

Quote from: Carlita on October 10, 2013, 12:00:49 PM
I know that's selfish. But I'm sure any other women here who've struggled and struggled with the whole idea of transition - particularly those with wives and children - will know that when one finally knows that the time is right, all the fear and trepidation is mixed with a kind of giddy excitement ...

Yes, I sympathize... I feel the same "giddy excitement".

In fact "patience" is NOT related to YOUR transition, but to expect change in HER.

I don't know if I am expressing myself clearly. You have what you have to do. Period.

If this is transition, go ahead. This is YOUR life.

The bad news is that others MAY NOT follow your excitement... and require YEARS to accept
(some may NEVER do that step, it's THEIR choice).

So... as other have said. do NOT let others control YOU, but... you cannot control others too... 

You can explain your reasons, your desires, your inner female feelings... but they are FREE to
remain in the state of fear, possibly forever. This is the REAL LIFE TEST for you (and me):
"are you willing to lose everything?"

Worst case CAN happen, and sometimes WILL happen. You may lose for ever wife and kids, but what's
on the other side? YOUR life, which is not infinite, by the way.

If we look at the "greatest" in history we see that most of them have faced similar though choices.
Budda (Siddharta) left home and family, Jesus idem, Gandhi faced jail and poverty, Joan d'Arc faced death.
Greatest things are not done without courage. Do not let fear control you. Face it, recognize it. But go on.

Quote from: Marina mtf on October 11, 2013, 12:58:10 AM
Yes, I sympathize... I feel the same "giddy excitement".

In fact "patience" is NOT related to YOUR transition, but to expect change in HER.

I don't know if I am expressing myself clearly. You have what you have to do. Period.

If this is transition, go ahead. This is YOUR life.

The bad news is that others MAY NOT follow your excitement... and require YEARS to accept
(some may NEVER do that step, it's THEIR choice).

So... as other have said. do NOT let others control YOU, but... you cannot control others too... 

You can explain your reasons, your desires, your inner female feelings... but they are FREE to
remain in the state of fear, possibly forever. This is the REAL LIFE TEST for you (and me):
"are you willing to lose everything?"

Worst case CAN happen, and sometimes WILL happen. You may lose for ever wife and kids, but what's
on the other side? YOUR life, which is not infinite, by the way.

If we look at the "greatest" in history we see that most of them have faced similar though choices.
Budda (Siddharta) left home and family, Jesus idem, Gandhi faced jail and poverty, Joan d'Arc faced death.
Greatest things are not done without courage. Do not let fear control you. Face it, recognize it. But go on.

Well, I'm not sure I'd dare compare myself to Jesus, Gandhi or Joan of Arc (!!), but I think your point is absolutely correct.

I was talking to my therapist about the whole issue of ones duty as a parent, against ones rights as an individual human being.

She said, 'You have the right to self-actualisation. You must be true to the person you are. But equally, your children have the right to react however they want to your decision.'

That struck me as both true and oddly comforting. I'm going to try to have the courage both to be the woman I am ... and to allow my children to accept or reject that woman, however agonising their decision may be.

Quote from: Carlita on October 11, 2013, 05:41:09 AM
She said, 'You have the right to self-actualisation. You must be true to the person you are. But equally, your children have the right to react however they want to your decision.'

This is a wonderful statement, but I think it leaves something out. You also have the right to influence your children positively toward your self-actualization. IMO, your wife does not have the right to influence them negatively - but that doesn't mean it won't happen. (Or, really, she has the right but should not do it because it's damaging to your children). I realize they're adults, but you're still their parent. Them being adult just means you have less ability to influence them, not less right... which means you need to do it smarter and empathically - there's less room for mistakes, and it might just not work at all.

Oh... and comparing ourselves to Joan of Arc isn't all that crazy. She was very likely FTM.

Quote from: Carlita on October 11, 2013, 05:41:09 AM
That struck me as both true and oddly comforting. I'm going to try to have the courage both to be the woman I am ... and to allow my children to accept or reject that woman, however agonising their decision may be.

Think in the other way: if you have taught love they will respond with love.
Your wife can be afraid and transmit her fears to them, but you can teach love, and love,
however, always wins, albeit not immediately.

Quote from: Marina mtf on October 11, 2013, 07:28:09 AM
Think in the other way: if you have taught love they will respond with love.
Your wife can be afraid and transmit her fears to them, but you can teach love, and love,
however, always wins, albeit not immediately.

I'm afraid to say that love does not appear to be winning at the moment. One of my daughters has cut off all contact with me.

I don't mind accepting the consequences of my own actions. But it's hard to accept the consequences of whatever was said about me by somebody else.

I'm sorry Carlita, I had to pop back in for one last post and then I'll fall silent.  Your life is ahead and it's tied to the woman you love, but starting transition is like the touch of an angel.  and I hope your wife can understand that.

It doesn't matter when we got married, what we told our wives before we tied the knot, or how accepting our spouses were of our "oddities".  Unless your wife is a special case (I personally know one) when we tell our wives we plan to, or are beginning transition they are overcome by a wave of anger and fear.  Whether they show it or not they're mad about your final decision, and not knowing or having a chance for input.  And most feel these things should be one of the joint decisions our marriages guarantee.   They may never accept the idea or fact that transition is our last resort to live, and that we've tried everything to avoid it. 

So, none of our wives are the same, have similar outlooks on marriage, or view their husbands with equal eyes.  We who are married must each make difficult choices when it comes to managing our marriage, comforting our wives, and coping with their fears.  We come to Susan's for advice, and yet we can't actually follow it in our own particular situations, but we mind what we learn from the others here.  I've always kept the advice from Susan's in mind, but none of it enters into what JoAnn and I discuss.  She is unique, her reactions can't be predetermined, and she has made that entirely clear.  I should know it by now, and I guess I do, but I still try to see the future.

I've posted about it before, but my wife and I finally sat down to discuss our marriage and the possible worst outcome.  I honestly told her the decisions about our union are entirely hers.  I said she should talk to whoever she wants and tell them whatever she wants, because I'll never stand in her way.  She then knew the transition was going to progress, I would begin to change, and I was ready to accept her desire to stay together, separate, divorce, or find a way to live apart.  I told her I'd love to stay with her, but can't beg by putting aside my life. 

I probably won't open this thread again, so I wish you and your wife the best.  And your children no doubt still love you as they always have.  They're just angry, sad, confused, and fearful of you becoming the woman you must now be.  And there's grief that they suddenly lost a father.

Hugs

Quote from: kathyk on October 11, 2013, 11:04:30 AM
I'm sorry Carlita, I had to pop back in for one last post and then I'll fall silent.  Your life is ahead and it's tied to the woman you love, but starting transition is like the touch of an angel.  and I hope your wife can understand that.

It doesn't matter when we got married, what we told our wives before we tied the knot, or how accepting our spouses were of our "oddities".  Unless your wife is a special case (I personally know one) when we tell our wives we plan to, or are beginning transition they are overcome by a wave of anger and fear.  Whether they show it or not they're mad about your final decision, and not knowing or having a chance for input.  And most feel these things should be one of the joint decisions our marriages guarantee.   They may never accept the idea or fact that transition is our last resort to live, and that we've tried everything to avoid it. 

So, none of our wives are the same, have similar outlooks on marriage, or view their husbands with equal eyes.  We who are married must each make difficult choices when it comes to managing our marriage, comforting our wives, and coping with their fears.  We come to Susan's for advice, and yet we can't actually follow it in our own particular situations, but we mind what we learn from the others here.  I've always kept the advice from Susan's in mind, but none of it enters into what JoAnn and I discuss.  She is unique, her reactions can't be predetermined, and she has made that entirely clear.  I should know it by now, and I guess I do, but I still try to see the future.

I've posted about it before, but my wife and I finally sat down to discuss our marriage and the possible worst outcome.  I honestly told her the decisions about our union are entirely hers.  I said she should talk to whoever she wants and tell them whatever she wants, because I'll never stand in her way.  She then knew the transition was going to progress, I would begin to change, and I was ready to accept her desire to stay together, separate, divorce, or find a way to live apart.  I told her I'd love to stay with her, but can't beg by putting aside my life. 

I probably won't open this thread again, so I wish you and your wife the best.  And your children no doubt still love you as they always have.  They're just angry, sad, confused, and fearful of you becoming the woman you must now be.  And there's grief that they suddenly lost a father.

Hugs

That was like a lovely verbal hug ... such kind, wise words, spoken with the knowledge that comes from direct personal experience. Thank you so much for sharing them with me.

In which case, the hell with it. I've spent years not transitioning because I didn't want to hurt my family. Turns out that was a waste of time. On Wednesday I'm seeing my therapist ... and I'm getting the girlie show on the road!
[/quote]

Congratulations! It's about time, isn't it that you start living an authentic life. BTW, my daughter Katy hasn't spoken to me in 159 days.

Quote from: DrZoey on October 11, 2013, 01:38:22 PM
Congratulations! It's about time, isn't it that you start living an authentic life. BTW, my daughter Katy hasn't spoken to me in 159 days.

It's a big part of my timeline. I consider it slow (my wife and her therapist don't seem to - but they're talking more about the superficial changes I've made). I was trying to balance self and family... all with zero inputs from anyone other than my therapist. I think it's fair and rapid enough for me to be happy while slow enough to allow people to adapt some. If I could I'd be on HRT now. At the same time, it's not fair for me (or the kids) to wait 10 years. IMO, unless you have other issues than being transgender, there's never (with exceptions, I'm sure) a good reason to wait more than a year to start the permanent changes. Experimenting and laser / electrolysis can come earlier - the former because it's needed and the latter because it takes so darned long.

I'm sure I'm over generalizing it. Sorry. It's just my own rationalization of my personal situation ♥.

So sorry to hear about Katy. I don't know if it's best, but I'd keep reaching out and hoping. All my love to you and your daughter ♥.

Quote from: DrZoey on October 11, 2013, 01:38:22 PM
BTW, my daughter Katy hasn't spoken to me in 159 days.

That's so sad ... One of the things that our culture cannot currently acknowledge is the degree to which wives and daughters need their husbands/fathers to be 'real man'. As my wife said, if I were anyone else's husband, she'd be very understanding, sympathetic and supportive. But because I'm HER man, she can't bear the idea of me not being male. Likewise, our daughters need us to be the men they've grown up with and they find it incredibly hard to see us 'betray' our masculinity ... or, at least, the masculinity they always assumed we possessed. And so they punish us.

Quote from: Carlita on October 12, 2013, 10:02:47 AMor, at least, the masculinity they always assumed we possessed. And so they punish us.

there is no real punishment going along. The only person you can punish is yourself. ALL evil
is in reality self-inflicted. Only love can go from one person to another, that may seem strange
but if we take into consideration that in reality there is only one thing, one spirit, one energy...
well, all the supposed evil does not really exist.

In the meantime we can try to make other people realize that they are really hurting themselves.

Just know that No one has a right to share personal information without consent and even more so after an agreement was made.I must be very honest with you and tell you that it is simply emotional abuse and nothing more.Regardless of ones feelings,frustrations or the like,abusing another is NOT from the heart.If you have further questions about emotional abuse then please look up *Signs of emotional abuse* and read the psychcentral web page.After doing so,PLEASE do whats best for you.Yes its true that most likely,this will test your childrens true unconditional love for you but aside from this,i have personally lived with such actions and such things,and even lost 2 kids but to different reasons.I wish you strength and confidence in yourself and no matter the outcome,i wish you a happy life!