The peeing standing up thread has evolved into the discussion of whether or not transitioning is a choice. I firmly believe that for most TSs transitioning is NOT a choice and that to espouse such views does harm to the community. Hey, I am all for free speech but saying transitioning is a choice gives credence to those who deny health coverage to TSs.

I have already had my SRS and paid for it so I have no skin in this game but I don't know why anyone in the community would want to give fodder to the dark side.

Quote from: asiangurliee on July 18, 2007, 12:33:34 AM
I disagree.

Using more politically correct terminology does not translate to greater acceptance.

I think the only thing that matters is when transsexuals decide to be public about their identity and make a presence in our society so that people know transgender people are here to stay.

I am sorry if I am not using the right word, but I will not say something I don't believe in.

Having "gender identity disorder" is not a choice, I believe what we do with our identity is our choice.

Or I am just a straight shooter, I am not going to extra careful with my words in order to yield more sympathy or empathy from anyone else, if someone doesn't like what I say, too bad.

I wll make sure that people know I am only speaking for myself, because i know that some people strongly disagree with me.

Let me make the connection for you, saying that transitioning is a choice only encourages the view that SRS is a choice and though I have already paid for my own SRS, I still want to see the day that other TSs in the US won't have to, a quite altruistic view from someone who didn't choose the ideal place and time to be born.

Again, there are some issues that we need to stand shoulder to shoulder on, but, hey, I come from an old union family and my forefathers spilled blood to stand up for the rights of the oppressed.

Posted on: July 18, 2007, 02:25:05 AM

---

Quote from: Sandi on July 18, 2007, 01:44:38 AM

Quote from: melissa90299It is of utmost importance for us to word things cautiously, even hinting that transsexuallity is a choice is political suicide.

Unless I have been reading it wrong, she didn't say that transsexuallity was a choice. She was contending that whether one decides to act on their GID, or transsexuallity, and transition was a choice. Which is true.

I tried to be more cordial in my last post, but let me be blunt, and call it what it is. Nit picking.

See my last post. I will be even more blunt. For those of you, the minority I am sure, who feel that transition is a choice, you would be doing the trans community a big favor if you kept that thought to yourself. Again, it only gives weight to those who would deny coverage to transsexua

I am glad you decided to create a new topic.

I do not think you need to quote me, but i won't stop you.


Transitioning is a choice, being openly gay is also a choice.


A gay person can choose to be honest about his or her sexuality or choose to live a lie.

A person with gender identity disorder can choose to transition and become who they truly are or continue to pretend to be someone else she or he is not.

But having same sex attraction or having a body that does not match the gender in one's mind is not a choice. 

 Someone who is gay but denied his true feelings will become depressed or even suicidal, someone who is a girl but live in a boy's body  but does not take steps to live life as a woman will become depressed or even suicidal.     

So, transitioning is a choice to become happy.

PS: I wonder if all transgender people kill themselves when they couldn't transition and hormones were not available?  I have doubts about that. Do I think they were happy? No, but did they all choose to kill themselves because they couldn't transition and take hormones and have surgeries? I don't think so.

Transitioning is not *merely* a choice, its an important and a life changing choice. Thank you.     

That's funny, I wrote a really nice post supporting the point of view that this is not a choice and all the reasons why. All that transsexuals endure and how the right calls it a "lifestyle choice", but I decided it was too far off the topic and didn't want to hijack the thread. So I deleted it.

Anyway, I agree with Melissa that for political, philosophical, and sociological reasons, we can not concede this is a lifestyle or a choice. Mainly because it's not true, but also so people can understand just how difficult it is to accept this about oneself. Rejecting the truth about ourselves is not an alternative to be considered. At it's best, it's a temporary solution, at it's worst it leads to depression, shame, guilt, self loathing and in many cases suicide.

That is not a choice.

Love always,
Elizabeth

*giggling devilishly*  Here we go again!  >  You see, when I can't sleep, something juicy tends to be going on here and I'm right!

Quote from: asiangurliee on July 18, 2007, 03:05:51 AM

Transitioning is a choice

I beg your pardon, "again"? 

Transition can't be a choice.  If someone considers transition to be a choice, then that person ISN'T TS, plain and simple.  A true transsexual WILL transition.  I highly recommend this thread to enlighten those of you who think that transition is a choice. 

Transsexuals will transition


But.. wait...now that I think about it, yes transition is one of the two alternatives available for any true TS, the other choice is to blow your brains out with a gun!

*sighs*

tink

Quote from: Tink on July 18, 2007, 03:24:49 AM
*giggling devilishly*  Here we go again!  >  You see, when I can't sleep, something juicy tends to be going on here and I'm right!

Quote from: asiangurliee on July 18, 2007, 03:05:51 AM

Transitioning is a choice

I beg your pardon, "again"? 

Transition can't be a choice.  If someone considers transition to be a choice, then that person ISN'T TS, plain and simple.  A true transsexual WILL transition.  I highly recommend this thread to enlighten those of you who think that transition is a choice. 

Transsexuals will transition


But.. wait...now that I think about it, yes transition is one of the two alternatives available for any true TS, the other choice is to blow your brains out with a gun!

*sighs*

tink

I bet your pardon?

So are you saying I am not a transsexual?

Please tell me how you have the right to tell me what I am or what I am not. Thanks.

Quote from: melissa90299See my last post. I will be even more blunt. For those of you, the minority I am sure, who feel that transition is a choice, you would be doing the trans community a big favor if you kept that thought to yourself. Again, it only gives weight to those who would deny coverage to transsexua[l]

To begin with Melissa, I don't think that anyone here is telling "society" whether transition is a choice. The exception is, at most, a handful of non-transgendered and SOs that may read this forum. Otherwise it is a discussion here within our community.

An aquaintance in I knew in the Milwaukee transsexual support group would like to have had gender reassignment surgery. Married with children and a semi-supportive SO, who sometimes came to support group with her. However it would have broken up the family as so often is the case. This person loved her SO very much, not to mention the children, and made the "choice" to not have surgery. How well she has lives with that choice now I do not know, because I no longer go to support group, and we haven't kept in touch, but it was her choice. At the time she was fairly well adjusted to her decision, and was happy. What am I missing that you can tell her she doesn't have that choice?

Which brings me to another point about the meaning of transition. Surgery, though usually desired by most, isn't necessary for everyone to complete transition. Transition is complete when one is happy with where one is at, and has no strong need or wish to go any further. That could be full transition with surgery as yourself, or simply staying on HRT. Transition can even be complete if a person accepts that they have GID, and that is enough. They may not wish to go any further for family reasons, or they simply may not desire surgery. Not even HRT, or coming out of the closet is required. Only acceptance of their GID, and a desire to go no further.

Quote from: asiangurliee on July 18, 2007, 03:27:34 AM

Quote from: Tink on July 18, 2007, 03:24:49 AM
*giggling devilishly*  Here we go again!  >  You see, when I can't sleep, something juicy tends to be going on here and I'm right!

Quote from: asiangurliee on July 18, 2007, 03:05:51 AM

Transitioning is a choice

I beg your pardon, "again"? 

Transition can't be a choice.  If someone considers transition to be a choice, then that person ISN'T TS, plain and simple.  A true transsexual WILL transition.  I highly recommend this thread to enlighten those of you who think that transition is a choice. 

Transsexuals will transition


But.. wait...now that I think about it, yes transition is one of the two alternatives available for any true TS, the other choice is to blow your brains out with a gun!

*sighs*

tink

I bet your pardon?

So are you saying I am not a transsexual?

Please tell me how you have the right to tell me what I am or what I am not. Thanks.

No, I am saying that a  "so called transsexual" who gives himself/herself the luxury to "choose" NOT to transition ISN'T transsexual.  Plain and simple.

tink

Quote from: Tink on July 18, 2007, 03:31:13 AM

Quote from: asiangurliee on July 18, 2007, 03:27:34 AM

Quote from: Tink on July 18, 2007, 03:24:49 AM
*giggling devilishly*  Here we go again!  >  You see, when I can't sleep, something juicy tends to be going on here and I'm right!

Quote from: asiangurliee on July 18, 2007, 03:05:51 AM

Transitioning is a choice

I beg your pardon, "again"? 

Transition can't be a choice.  If someone considers transition to be a choice, then that person ISN'T TS, plain and simple.  A true transsexual WILL transition.  I highly recommend this thread to enlighten those of you who think that transition is a choice. 

Transsexuals will transition


But.. wait...now that I think about it, yes transition is one of the two alternatives available for any true TS, the other choice is to blow your brains out with a gun!

*sighs*

tink

I bet your pardon?

So are you saying I am not a transsexual?

Please tell me how you have the right to tell me what I am or what I am not. Thanks.

No, I am saying that a  "so called transsexual" who gives themselves the luxury to "choose" not to transition ISN'T transsexual.  Plain and simple.

tink

I do agree with that. I am sorry I misread you.  I always believe the term transsexuals only applied to those who have taken physical steps to change their bodies.    But I would say that someone can choose to not transition but still suffers from gender identity disorder. Yes, that person is likely to be unhappy (or even commit suicide) , but that doesn't mean that everyone who doesn't transition is A-OKAY with their gender. 



I also would not kill myself if I couldn't transition. I would never use a gun, first of all. Secondly, I might engage in self destructive behavior, but I can't imagine myself ever putting a bullet in my brain or jumping off a building.   

I am sorry, if my refusal to commit suicide no matter what is not dramatic enough for the public to accept me or tolerate me. Oh well.

Quote from: AsiangurleeBut I would say that someone can choose to not transition but still suffers from gender identity disorder.

True, that person may suffer from some kind of GID, but obviously that GID isn't too strong for that person to be considered transsexual.

Transsexualism = Severe form of GID

QuoteTranssexualism is a severe form of GID, defined by an intense discomfort with one's assigned sex and with one's primary and secondary sex characteristics.  For people who suffer from profound GID, there's a conflict between the person's body and the person's psychological identity as male or female.

The above paragraph was extracted from this link:

http://www.glad.org/rights/me_ad_reg_mb_testimony.pdf

tink

Umm,
  ok, maybe I am a strange sort here but as you all know labels and terminology drives me nuts so let me make this simple. TS' and IS' are women (for m2f and vice versa for f2m of course). A TS has the brain of one gender but was given a body opposite to that. An IS has that plus biological traits (organs etc) of the opposite. That being said there is no choice. To say otherwise is kinda like saying, oh I don't know, a frog waking up one day and deciding he's not a frog. I mean come on folks, if you profess to be TS or IS you are the gender of your brain and you do not have a choice, unless someone knows how to reprogram the brain. No? didn't think so. And the longer you deny to yourself your true gender the more miserable life will be for you.
  And please do not go around saying it is a choice in public, our fight is hard enough now. Having someone say they are TS or IS and walk around saying stuff like this is going to be the death of all of us. And if whoever is saying is is offended by my response then please see your therapist because I think you got misdiagnosed. True legitimate TS' and IS' know what I am saying.
                                                                  Kim   

Kim, why don't you tell us what you really think? LOL

I will never forget when an HR person trying to be supportive when I was making a complaint of sexual harassment said something to the effect: "They have to respect who you are after all this is your choice." And I failed to correct her. It still bothers me to this day that I did not speak up.

Here we go again. Different views of what a choice is and whether this should be handled in an objective fashion or as politics.

I think living (i.e. not committing suicide) is a choice.

Thus transitioning (and not committing suicide) is a choice.

Having GID is not a choice and transitioning is (imho) the best path for the most TS inviduals - and for many the only good path.

Oh come now, that is a Clintonesgue parsing of words, silly and contributes nothing, quite frankly, save, perhaps, muddying the water.


(Clintonesque parsing but the logic is strictly George Bush.)

To make things more clear "choice" and "lifestyle choice" are different things.

I think it is more along the line of making the choice to accept medical treatment for any other thing (e.g. cancer). However there are some people that don't make the choice for treatment and I think that is a valid decision too (as long as they know what they are doing).

For me, being on HRT was not a choice. I tried my damndest to not be on it. If I could get a drug that made me feel as good as I do now, without the "side effects", that would be preferable. I say that because transitioning is not only hard, it upsets lives, it is exspensive, and it is a major life changing event. Because I have to be on HRT to be somewhat stable in this world, I have no choice but to suffer the side effects of being mentally sound and deal with the physical changes as they happen.

That doesn't mean I don't ever want to be a girl, I wished that were 100% possible but the reallity is I will never be. I can only go so far and hope that I look good enough to pass and be accepted as one. I am just trying to be reallistic about my situation. First, this has to be done, there was no other way and no other drug. Secondly, I must deal with the changes being on HRT will bring. And third, I must put a plan into action to change my life and those around me with as little damage and pain as possible.

I often read about TS that learn about their condition and jump in with both feet and take a running start down the path of transitioning without much thought and little to no planning. They would appear to jump in blindly with little to no regard for anybody but themselves. I guess that is another reason why I am a "Pickle". I try to see the reality and the effect it will have on not only me, but those around me that depend on me financially, physically, and socially. I must have a plan and have things in place such as finances, employment, education, and a backup plan for anything that fails. I tried hard to find another way around this, to avoid it, to be anything but a "Pickle". I sure as hell wished there was another way. All paths in my life led in one direction. I took the long way around getting here looking for other solutions. Even though my estrogen level is maxed out and my T level has tanked, I still search for other options. I will search for other options my whole life I suspect. When there is no validation, and no medical diagnosis that can pinpoint the issue, you are left to your own mind to diagnose yourself. Maybe those that chose to transition did so because of some strange idea that being the opposite sex/gender will be easier? Or it could be a sexual thing? Or perhaps it is simple as lying to themselves and just not being 100% honest? Maybe they really did choose?

I am as stubborn and strong headed as they come, and I do not like having 1 "choice" as some choose to call it. For me it is not a choice, it IS MY REALITY, and the hand I was dealt. I'm not much of a poker player but I can bluff when need be, and hopefully that will get me through something that very few have education or knowledge of. Yes, transition is the hand that was dealt to me, It is my destiny or my "El Guapo" (Three Amigos) in life.

A choice for me? I think not. It may be for some others but I will not speak for them. Anybody that would "choose" this would be a fool to me and needs to be "evaluated" for other issues. In the end, if I truly had a "choice", I  would have never chosen this route.

There are always choices, we make them everyday of our lives and continue to do so until we die.

However some choices are extremely limited and it may be that there are only one or two choices.....

However, If we are diagnosed with GID ,then I believe it is our fate, coupled with destiny to transition , otherwise the choice is to continue to face a lifetime of pain, depression and confusion.

Not much of a choice really.

Buffy

In my opinion if you are severely Gender dysphoric, you have limited options; transtion, die or live in abject pain and frustration the rest of your life.  For me it was transition or suicide, I could no longer live for the other people around me (my wife, children, work or my disowned family).

Obviously not everyone falls in that catagory.

Sarah L.

Quote from: taru on July 18, 2007, 06:59:04 AM
To make things more clear "choice" and "lifestyle choice" are different things.

I think it is more along the line of making the choice to accept medical treatment for any other thing (e.g. cancer). However there are some people that don't make the choice for treatment and I think that is a valid decision too (as long as they know what they are doing).

Sure it is a decision made by someone who is not transsexual. I don't understand why people don't get that the absolute need to transition is what defines us. I heard someone say that if she had her druthers she would be a girl probably, she guesses but hse would not transition or consider SRS and that person defied herself as transsexual. I don't know why having the classification of transsexual is such a desirable thing that people want this derivation yet deny the essence of what defines us.

For me its definately a choice, similar to the choice: should i juggle with knifes or just stab myself?

i can choose to either take the path that i know will hurt me, but i also know where it will take me or
i can choose the uncertain path, that will probably give me some cuts and bruises but also can take me to a better life than that other alternative.

its the same choice as to eat or not
if i decide to eat ill live
if i decide not to eat ill die

that an alternative hurts us doesnt mean that there is no choice

Yeah, you could say transitioning is a "choice" for a TS in the same manner that you could say a cornered and provoked animal will "choose" to fight back to save it's life.  It's all a part of the survival instinct.  Saying that acting on the survival instinct is a choice is bogus plain and simple and that's exactly what transitioning is.  Why do you think so many of us end up following the same path?  It's because our instincts tell us to.  That's also why non-transsexuals see this as a choice.  It's because they have never had that instinct activated and therefore don't know what it feels like.