I think it's also worth mentioning that cis men don't always "pass" either.

I'm just saying.  Just being a physiologically male doesn't mean you'll always be perceived as male.

I think it is uncomfortable and painful for men as well, and probably many ask the same questions.

Quote from: Brandon on October 13, 2013, 03:23:55 PM
It's probally mannerisms, Because I'm not on T but my voice is somewhat high but when I'm out in public most people  say he with no hesitation, Mannersims play a role in alot, And it has always been in me, Sit like a male walk lile a male talk like a male eat like a male even putting clothes on like a male, For an example women put one arm in then they do the other men on the other hand pull the shirt over their head and put both arms in at the same time, It's always been their because were male, And one thing I don't like is that you can go on the internet and look at how to get thoes mannerisms if your male it's already embedded in you no need to learn, Even hough my family hates the decision I'm making while trying to force me not to, Id care how many someone told me to sit like a lady, That's not how my brain is programmed

Where did you ever read or hear of such a thing?

Quote from: Lexicon on October 14, 2013, 10:53:46 AM
I think it's also worth mentioning that cis men don't always "pass" either.

I'm just saying.  Just being a physiologically male doesn't mean you'll always be perceived as male.

I think it is uncomfortable and painful for men as well, and probably many ask the same questions.

There's a lot of truth in this. When I was early-late 20's, I'd get misgendered female a lot when still a straight up guy (but then I was underweight and had long hair.) Funny, because that was 'grunge' era so it was not uncommon for guys in our peer group to look the same way (if that doesn't date me too much lol.)

I agree with a lot of the replies here; I think it largely boils down to mannerisms. Work on squaring up your shoulders, note how other guys behave, especially among other guys. It's (obviously) a lot different than when a guy and a girl hang out. That's not a licence to overcompensate though; don't worry about being the most manly man in the room

Quote from: chuck on October 14, 2013, 04:55:41 PM
Where did you ever read or hear of such a thing?

By observing men and women, This why a woman cant teach her son to be a man, If you put one arm in then the other that's feminen, Men arents suppose to put their shirts on like a woman, My great grandpa told my grandma that

Quote from: Brandon on October 15, 2013, 02:46:27 PM

By observing men and women, This why a woman cant teach her son to be a man, If you put one arm in then the other that's feminen, Men arents suppose to put their shirts on like a woman, My great grandpa told my grandma that

What?

Quote from: Brandon on October 15, 2013, 02:46:27 PM

By observing men and women, This why a woman cant teach her son to be a man, If you put one arm in then the other that's feminen, Men arents suppose to put their shirts on like a woman, My great grandpa told my grandma that

This sounds like sexism bred through generations, honestly.
I can't imagine how offensive this would be a single mother raising a son.

Quote from: supremecatoverlord on October 15, 2013, 03:28:11 PM
This sounds like sexism bred through generations, honestly.
I can't imagine how offensive this would be a single mother raising a son.

Well I don't surgar coat stuff that's the truth I believe you need a mother and a father, How is a woman gonna teach a man to be a man it's not possible it's not sexist, But I can see how you would see it that way but if you really think about it, it makes since

Quote from: G on October 15, 2013, 02:49:13 PM
What?

Ok when a man puts on a shirt he puts both arms through his shirt and pulls it over his body, When a woman does it she puts one arm at a time I observe everything weather at school the gym outside or my house

At the risk of stepping far over my boundaries...

Your version of masculinity is innate.  There are ways that you can manipulate gestures, mannerisms, speech patterns, etc to emulate an idea of "male" but those things aren't inherent to all cis males. 

If you are confident and poised in your brand of masculinity, there is no question as to whether or not that is "male" because it is you, how could it not be?

cis men are as variant in expression, mannerisms, gestures, speech patterns, sensitivity, etc. as any other human being.  They may question if they are as much a "man" as the lumberjack they are standing next to but the quality of their maleness is not in question based on how they put their shirt on.

My point is this: humans gravitate toward confidence and authenticity.  We like other people that are centered, approachable, true, and kind.  If you put on your shirt by standing in the neck hole and pulling it up over your waist people aren't thinking if that's a guy thing to do or not, they think you are being weird, which you kind of are, but it's all good.  You are who you are.  People will connect with that more than they will with you being overly attentive to your every gesture -- if people don't know why you are being so calculated they tend to read it incorrectly as your hiding something or somehow not being who you really are. 

If you move from the core belief that you are a man (or however you identify) you feel confident and at peace with it, then everything you do is reasonably what men do... because you are one and your doing it... it's a little bit of circular logic but still relevant, IMO.

I'm just sayin'. 

Quote from: Lexicon on October 15, 2013, 04:16:33 PM
At the risk of stepping far over my boundaries...

Your version of masculinity is innate.  There are ways that you can manipulate gestures, mannerisms, speech patterns, etc to emulate an idea of "male" but those things aren't inherent to all cis males. 

If you are confident and poised in your brand of masculinity, there is no question as to whether or not that is "male" because it is you, how could it not be?

cis men are as variant in expression, mannerisms, gestures, speech patterns, sensitivity, etc. as any other human being.  They may question if they are as much a "man" as the lumberjack they are standing next to but the quality of their maleness is not in question based on how they put their shirt on.

My point is this: humans gravitate toward confidence and authenticity.  We like other people that are centered, approachable, true, and kind.  If you put on your shirt by standing in the neck hole and pulling it up over your waist people aren't thinking if that's a guy thing to do or not, they think you are being weird, which you kind of are, but it's all good.  You are who you are.  People will connect with that more than they will with you being overly attentive to your every gesture -- if people don't know why you are being so calculated they tend to read it incorrectly as your hiding something or somehow not being who you really are. 

If you move from the core belief that you are a man (or however you identify) you feel confident and at peace with it, then everything you do is reasonably what men do... because you are one and your doing it... it's a little bit of circular logic but still relevant, IMO.

I'm just sayin'.

Yea.... Nowadays people don't know how to raise children, Your suppose train a child up in the way it should go, I can't teach a female to be a woman I can only play a part in some things that's not one of them, No will not have my daughter watch me get dressed when their is a difference between how men an women get dressed, Kids are very smart, Monkey see monkey do

Quote from: Brandon on October 15, 2013, 04:01:11 PM

Well I don't surgar coat stuff that's the truth I believe you need a mother and a father, How is a woman gonna teach a man to be a man it's not possible it's not sexist, But I can see how you would see it that way but if you really think about it, it makes since

What about people who have a father who transitions to female later in life?

On the inside, couldn't it be argued that this person was somehow always a woman?

Quote from: Brandon on October 15, 2013, 04:33:02 PM




Yea.... Nowadays people don't know how to raise children, Your suppose train a child up in the way it should go, I can't teach a female to be a woman I can only play a part in some things that's not one of them, No will not have my daughter watch me get dressed when their is a difference between how men an women get dressed, Kids are very smart, Monkey see monkey do

Am I correct in assuming you don't have kids?

I have three, it's not quite as obvious or cut and dry as you think it might be. 

And for the record, your kids will teach you as much as you teach them.  It'll be humility, not righteousness, that'll raise your kids to be good humans.

Quote from: Brandon on October 15, 2013, 04:03:21 PM

Ok when a man puts on a shirt he puts both arms through his shirt and pulls it over his body, When a woman does it she puts one arm at a time I observe everything weather at school the gym outside or my house

I'm a man and I put my head through first, then arms. Well usually, I honestly don't pay that much attention. Does this make me less of a man? No.

Lexicon said what I was thinking so I will just leave my comment at that.

Quote from: supremecatoverlord on October 15, 2013, 04:38:10 PM
What about people who have a father who transitions to female later in life?

On the inside, couldn't it be argued that this person was somehow always a woman?

That person is female and has the brain of a female so their for can raise a female, Or in my case I can raise a boy and teach him how to be a man because I am one

Quote from: Lexicon on October 15, 2013, 04:41:43 PM
Am I correct in assuming you don't have kids?

I have three, it's not quite as obvious or cut and dry as you think it might be. 

And for the record, your kids will teach you as much as you teach them.  It'll be humility, not righteousness, that'll raise your kids to be good humans.



Yea well I may not have them but it's still true, I'm gonna teach my daughter how to be a man as Ive already stated men and women do things differently, Its like this men sit with their legs open If my daughter sees it shes gonna do it, unless she comes out as trans, Other than that I want her to be daddies little girl

Quote from: Brandon on October 15, 2013, 04:01:11 PM

Well I don't surgar coat stuff that's the truth I believe you need a mother and a father, How is a woman gonna teach a man to be a man it's not possible it's not sexist, But I can see how you would see it that way but if you really think about it, it makes since

I would really want to know how my mom managed to raise me by herself then. I never had a father figure when I was growing up, and frankly I never felt like I needed one.

Quote from: Tossu-sama on October 15, 2013, 04:56:31 PM
I would really want to know how my mom managed to raise me by herself then. I never had a father figure when I was growing up, and frankly I never felt like I needed one.

I'm talking about biological males, My mom will never see me as her son so she thinks I'm her daughter, Unless she sees you as her son early in life

Brandon, I have them and it's not true.

It is surprising to me that you don't have kids and you'd tell me what is true all while I have them and I'm telling you it's not true.

This leads me to one glaringly obvious conclusion:  This argument is going nowhere, fast.

I guess I wouldn't care as much but now that I know you plan on raising kids there is this rising sense of frustration and sadness, you're kids are who they are.  You don't have to teach them to be anyone or how to be that one that you think they are.  You just have to give them solid moral and value foundations and they will be solid people with their own expressions.  I guess the part that is confusing to me is that if you were raised with the opportunity to just be focused on being a good person and know that you could be whoever you are... wouldn't there be so much freedom?

I am sure you know all there is to know, but your unborn kids deserve the freedom to find out who they are on their own terms.  As someone who is going to have to (hopefully) co-habitate the earth with your offspring, I'd prefer they be good people rather than them being properly your little girl or boy.  More-over, I'd prefer that they be good to themselves because they believe they can be true to themselves.  So many of us wouldn't be experiencing the pain we are had that been an option from the jump.

Ok, I'm all done now. 

It doesn't matter how someone else sees you. It's how you sees you, to put it somewhat ungrammatically.
I don't care what way I put a shirt on. It doesn't make you a man, what's in your brain makes you a man.

--Jay

Quote from: aleon515 on October 15, 2013, 05:22:53 PM
It doesn't matter how someone else sees you. It's how you sees you, to put it somewhat ungrammatically.
I don't care what way I put a shirt on. It doesn't make you a man, what's in your brain makes you a man.

--Jay

I just said that it could be Feminine not less of a man