I would like to find a politically correct terms to express my attraction in gender-inclusive groups and how do I define gender?

As a non-sexual (All-out inclusive terms for those who's not into the idea of sex regardless of sexual attraction) and cis-genderless person who's attracted to non-trans AFAB individuals. I think I could go with bio-females, but the problem is that it is not always specific as some bio-females could have characteristics as your average bio-males such as similar skeletal frames, muscle and fat composition. Not only that, bio-female can be used to assume a certain group of people are real females at times. Non-trans AFAB would be too long to express and it would be difficult for some people to understand unless I do clarify it. Female-bodied and male-bodied would be politically incorrect in gender-inclusive group as gender-minded people do not focus on the sex aspects, but on the mental aspects (unclear, but I get some idea even if I have no idea what people are on about when it comes to feeling). So, how would I express my attraction?

There's another thing that I would like to have resolved. I'm also looking for a gender meaning without any problems.
Gender #1 - A individual's characteristic which describes how one feel like one that is used to describe what one is.

Here's the problem. We shall use Gender #1 as the meaning of gender. I will use a dialogue in order to show the problem with the meaning.

Jason to Stephanie : What is the female/male?
Stephanie to Jason : Well, a male is someone who feels like a male and when one does feel like a male, then this is who he is.
Jason : How do you describe the feeling of being male/female? How can one tell?
Stephanie: When someone thinks he/she feels this way or thinks like a male/female.
Jason :  What does it means to be thinking like a male/female or what does it means when someone thinks he/she feels this way.
Stephanie : It simply means one feels this way or that way.

Observation of problem - Circular reasoning and fails to answer the question of what does it means when one feels like a male/female.

Let's make up Gender #2 to resolve Gender #1 meaning and look into it.
Gender #2 - "The identity in which one thinks one should have been".

Now, we note that this meaning does not have the problem of lack of clarify. But, is this meaning really flawless? If I am born intersexed and I have XX chromosomes, I claim that I should have been a female as statistics say that I should have been while I identify as a intersexed individual. The problem is that my identity of what I think I am while the identity in which I am does not align, thus the problem is that it does not take in account of differentiating identity in which one consider oneself is and identity in which one believes one should have been born as. 

In order to resolve problem of gender #1 and #2, I must find a meaning that looks into differences between identity of one considers oneself is and identity in which one should have been born as while avoiding the circular logic problem.
Gender #3 - The identity in which one considers oneself as

Here, we have resolved problems observed in the past 2 meanings, but then this isn't clear as what one considers one can vary depending on what criteria is being used. So, thus one can have multiple genders. In order to show this, I will use myself as a hypothetical bio-female with these sayings below.

"I am a female according to the parts, so therefore I should consider myself as a female"
"I am a male according to what society portrays as what counts as male/female, so there I should consider myself as a male."
"I am a bigender according to what I feel"

If we look into the statement, we note that the identity differs in according to different criteria. Thus, we shall conclude that Gender #1,#2,#3 is problematic.

So, how am I suppose to define gender without these problems?

I'm not sure it's actually possible for anyone to give you a definitive answer on how to define gender as it relates to you, and the way you think and feel about things.

I guess for some it's more subjective than objective. Something which many people arrive at an answer within themselves. One which doesn't have to follow a set of rules, or standards, but one which just feels right.

Different strokes for different folks.

For myself, I try not to overthink things like that. Since doing so just causes my brain to do somersaults in trying to figure it out. For me it's just a feeling. A feeling of "yeah, that's it" when identifying as female. I've learned that the way I feel affects me more deeply than trying to rationalise something to the n^th degree. So I go with that. And it kinda works.

Maybe some people are just synergistic. Greater than the sum of their parts. Who knows. Maybe emotion just can't be expressed in a formula, and is something which has to be experienced to be understood.

I guess some of it is that asking a hundred different people who identify as male what it is they actually identify with... you're likely to get a hundred different answers. But the thing is, none of them are wrong. Same for people who identify as female. And again for people who identify as non-binary. The common factor in it is that they have arrived at those answers within themselves, whatever those answers may be. Everyone's experience of life is unique to them, and rightly so. A common thread among all when asked what it feels like to be the gender they identify with, is an overwhelming "It feels like being me."

There may very well be a sort of gender Rosetta Stone, which has the cypher on it for what all these feelings mean. But I guess the most important thing for me is that for myself... it just isn't needed.

I find that things like this are only problematic when you overanalyse them, and treat them as a sort of mathematical puzzle. Sometimes emotion doesn't follow reason. Nor does it need one. It just is. Sometimes you can't explain a feeling, you just have to experience it.

The problem is that we are only offered two hard and fast options - male or female. Some Polynesian cultures and others throughout history have recognised an in between state. Really, until it's recognised that gender is an outdated construct based on what genitals and chromosomes we're born with then the problem will persist. In fact gender identification is a sliding scale that has so many variables as to be unclassifiable, for some it is hard set, for others mutable and will charge throughout life. I prefer to think of us all as just people rather than trying to create new labels and pigeonholes. 

Attraction: emphasize the kind of person you're attracted to without situating their bodies at the center of the definition. Terms like "gynesexual" or "androphile" (I use the latter since I am attracted to masculinity in ways that are specific but very difficult or impossible to explain, but don't experience sexual attraction) are useful for this. The prefix "skolio-" can be used to denote attraction to non-binary people.

As for circular reasoning... it appears to be that way because there is no objective truth to gender beyond what is true within ourselves and how we identify. It's axiomatic and can't be explained by reductive logic because gender by its very nature isn't objective and does not exist outside of subjective human experience.

Figure out yourself and don't worry about other people. They'll figure themselves out, and you'll just have to learn to trust them when they tell you how they feel.

@Sephirah: As someone who follows the philosophy that a language is meaningful if we are to follow the framework that words are to be coherent and the desire to support a network of coherency to reduce miscommunication. I'm still looking into understanding gender in a way that I find it coherent. I guess that there isn't anyway to resolve the problem of what defines gender considering so many people have different meanings and not one is without problems (As far as I can see).

Quote from: Grace_C on October 17, 2013, 02:15:32 PM
The problem is that we are only offered two hard and fast options - male or female. Some Polynesian cultures and others throughout history have recognised an in between state. Really, until it's recognised that gender is an outdated construct based on what genitals and chromosomes we're born with then the problem will persist. In fact gender identification is a sliding scale that has so many variables as to be unclassifiable, for some it is hard set, for others mutable and will charge throughout life. I prefer to think of us all as just people rather than trying to create new labels and pigeonholes. 

Society is starting to understand that gender is not the same thing as sex, but sex isn't really going to be outdated as the beauty behind sex is that it has visible cues and different forms of sex can be determined. Also, gender isn't gonna go away as there always people who perceives themselves contrary to what anatomical sex says to them. Basically, in a way, both are never going to be outdated. I think the only scenario I can imagine where gender is outdated is when many people stick to the objective without supports to the subjective realm and as far as I can see, it's never happening.

Regarding the binary sex idea, I'm not aware of any statistics that takes a look at how well people fit in the binary sex and to what extent the binary sex theory is valid. The absolute binary sex theory is already disproven by evidences of the existence of anatomically intersexed individuals, misaligned chromosal sex and reproductive sex, brain sex, and so on. Sex should be seen as multi-dimensional as society. The brain sex is somewhat unresolved as many studies have the problems of inadequate comparisons, low sample size, does not take into account of hormone treatment at times, and so on. One can't really deny that brain sex is in there to a extent, but to what extent is the question. There's a study out there that claims the brains are actually intersexed which kind of explains why men and women have very similar personality.

Oh, and yes the fact that one is offered male and female is problematic. The first thing society needs to understand is that sex isn't binary.

Quote from: Lo on October 17, 2013, 02:47:16 PM
Attraction: emphasize the kind of person you're attracted to without situating their bodies at the center of the definition. Terms like "gynesexual" or "androphile" (I use the latter since I am attracted to masculinity in ways that are specific but very difficult or impossible to explain, but don't experience sexual attraction) are useful for this. The prefix "skolio-" can be used to denote attraction to non-binary people.

As for circular reasoning... it appears to be that way because there is no objective truth to gender beyond what is true within ourselves and how we identify. It's axiomatic and can't be explained by reductive logic because gender by its very nature isn't objective and does not exist outside of subjective human experience.

Figure out yourself and don't worry about other people. They'll figure themselves out, and you'll just have to learn to trust them when they tell you how they feel.

I'm aware of these terms, but they still don't fit me and certainly not what I would describe myself in gender-inclusive spaces. I personally do not understand what is masculinity and what is femininity. I already figured out myself as igender (Just transpose the concept of ignosticism to gender to understand this) and cis-genderless (Look at my signature, and I use this for gender-minded space as it gets to the point with explanation of course.)

I think the answers will vary depending on who you ask.
On the subject of sexuality, I have no idea what to answer. I think labels for sexuality don't really tell anyone anything, so I don't see the point of them.

As for gender, there are many ways to be trans and everyone has different opinions. There is something I would like to point out first though:
Cis-people have a gender identity too. When Jason (#1) asks Stephanie to describe the feeling of being male/female, how one can tell, and what it means, she could turn those same questions on him. What gender is Jason? How does Jason know?
Also, personally, I get really tired of people asking me stuff like that especially when they won't drop it. They tend to take any answer I give them as not good enough because it wasn't what they wanted to hear. What they wanted to hear was something they could interpret to mean that I am who I say I am. (There may be some more well intentioned people out there who ask those questions, but I haven't met any.)

There are various opinions about what gender is. Some people believe that gender has something to do with society. Some people (like me) are vehemently against that. Some people agree with the research that has been done regarding gender, the brain, and specifically the research that has been done on trans brains. Some people don't for reasons I cannot fathom. Some people believe that the mind is some sort of abstract thing that is somehow separate from the body (a very outdated belief that never the less persists) and insist that sex is what one biologically/physically is and that gender is something else. Some are aware that the brain is a physical, biological organ. Where, then, do we draw the line between biological/physical and biological/physical enough to be considered sex? Why would the brain, probably the most important organ in our bodies (although I may be biased), not be included?
As you may guess, if you were to ask me what "gender" is, I would tell you it is probably the sex of the brain. That said, there are many ways to be trans and more research to be done. (For example, we haven't dissected androgyne, bigender, or agender brains yet.)

Sorry if that was rambly or confusing. I have trouble with words sometimes.