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Transitioning is merely a choice

Started by melissa90299, July 18, 2007, 02:45:20 AM

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Sarah Louise

Nameless here for evermore!;  Merely this, and nothing more;
Tis the wind and nothing more!;  Quoth the Raven, "Nevermore!!"
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Rachael

Quote from: asiangurliee on July 18, 2007, 03:27:34 AM
Quote from: Tink on July 18, 2007, 03:24:49 AM
*giggling devilishly*  Here we go again!  >:D  You see, when I can't sleep, something juicy tends to be going on here and I'm right!


Quote from: asiangurliee on July 18, 2007, 03:05:51 AM

Transitioning is a choice

I beg your pardon, "again"?  ???

Transition can't be a choice.  If someone considers transition to be a choice, then that person ISN'T TS, plain and simple.  A true transsexual WILL transition.  I highly recommend this thread to enlighten those of you who think that transition is a choice. 

Transsexuals will transition


But.. wait...now that I think about it, yes transition is one of the two alternatives available for any true TS, the other choice is to blow your brains out with a gun!

*sighs*

tink :icon_chick:

I bet your pardon?

So are you saying I am not a transsexual?

Please tell me how you have the right to tell me what I am or what I am not. Thanks.




(yay for megga quoteing)

Asiangurlieee: transition is not a choice, you might think you have one, but our narrow view of choice, isnt as wide as the actual concept. what is choice? decideing to do something now, as opposed to in a week isnt choice, we have decided nothing, but to deley start of whatever it is.
when a choice is 'life or death' is it really a choice?
a 'true transexual person' whatever that means, will transition at some point, or die at the hand of thier suffering. its impossible to supress it and live a happy life, the dysphoria will persist. what is our choice here? when to transition? because i sure as hell cant imagine a life as a male, and im not about to start...
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asiangurliee

Quote from: Lori on July 18, 2007, 07:21:05 AM
For me, being on HRT was not a choice. I tried my damndest to not be on it. If I could get a drug that made me feel as good as I do now, without the "side effects", that would be preferable. I say that because transitioning is not only hard, it upsets lives, it is exspensive, and it is a major life changing event. Because I have to be on HRT to be somewhat stable in this world, I have no choice but to suffer the side effects of being mentally sound and deal with the physical changes as they happen.

That doesn't mean I don't ever want to be a girl, I wished that were 100% possible but the reallity is I will never be. I can only go so far and hope that I look good enough to pass and be accepted as one. I am just trying to be reallistic about my situation. First, this has to be done, there was no other way and no other drug. Secondly, I must deal with the changes being on HRT will bring. And third, I must put a plan into action to change my life and those around me with as little damage and pain as possible.

I often read about TS that learn about their condition and jump in with both feet and take a running start down the path of transitioning without much thought and little to no planning. They would appear to jump in blindly with little to no regard for anybody but themselves. I guess that is another reason why I am a "Pickle". I try to see the reality and the effect it will have on not only me, but those around me that depend on me financially, physically, and socially. I must have a plan and have things in place such as finances, employment, education, and a backup plan for anything that fails. I tried hard to find another way around this, to avoid it, to be anything but a "Pickle". I sure as hell wished there was another way. All paths in my life led in one direction. I took the long way around getting here looking for other solutions. Even though my estrogen level is maxed out and my T level has tanked, I still search for other options. I will search for other options my whole life I suspect. When there is no validation, and no medical diagnosis that can pinpoint the issue, you are left to your own mind to diagnose yourself. Maybe those that chose to transition did so because of some strange idea that being the opposite sex/gender will be easier? Or it could be a sexual thing? Or perhaps it is simple as lying to themselves and just not being 100% honest? Maybe they really did choose?

I am as stubborn and strong headed as they come, and I do not like having 1 "choice" as some choose to call it. For me it is not a choice, it IS MY REALITY, and the hand I was dealt. I'm not much of a poker player but I can bluff when need be, and hopefully that will get me through something that very few have education or knowledge of. Yes, transition is the hand that was dealt to me, It is my destiny or my "El Guapo" (Three Amigos) in life.

A choice for me? I think not. It may be for some others but I will not speak for them. Anybody that would "choose" this would be a fool to me and needs to be "evaluated" for other issues. In the end, if I truly had a "choice", I  would have never chosen this route.

I understand what you are saying. I don't think anyone would choose to transition unless they know that there is no other way for them to be happy or at peace with themselves.


Anyways, I don't take my transitioning easily. I definitely will not *choose* to transition or continue to *choose* to transition if I know that I can live in any other way without changing my body.






Posted on: July 18, 2007, 11:39:22 AM
Quote from: Rachael on July 18, 2007, 09:53:50 AM
Quote from: asiangurliee on July 18, 2007, 03:27:34 AM
Quote from: Tink on July 18, 2007, 03:24:49 AM
*giggling devilishly*  Here we go again!  >:D  You see, when I can't sleep, something juicy tends to be going on here and I'm right!


Quote from: asiangurliee on July 18, 2007, 03:05:51 AM

Transitioning is a choice

I beg your pardon, "again"?  ???

Transition can't be a choice.  If someone considers transition to be a choice, then that person ISN'T TS, plain and simple.  A true transsexual WILL transition.  I highly recommend this thread to enlighten those of you who think that transition is a choice. 

Transsexuals will transition


But.. wait...now that I think about it, yes transition is one of the two alternatives available for any true TS, the other choice is to blow your brains out with a gun!

*sighs*

tink :icon_chick:

I bet your pardon?

So are you saying I am not a transsexual?

Please tell me how you have the right to tell me what I am or what I am not. Thanks.




(yay for megga quoteing)

Asiangurlieee: transition is not a choice, you might think you have one, but our narrow view of choice, isnt as wide as the actual concept. what is choice? decideing to do something now, as opposed to in a week isnt choice, we have decided nothing, but to deley start of whatever it is.
when a choice is 'life or death' is it really a choice?
a 'true transexual person' whatever that means, will transition at some point, or die at the hand of thier suffering. its impossible to supress it and live a happy life, the dysphoria will persist. what is our choice here? when to transition? because i sure as hell cant imagine a life as a male, and im not about to start...


The choice is between living a miserable life and/or transition.

If someone doesn't agree with my choice of word, than it's fine but i hope noe one would say that I take the transition process lightly. I think about it everyday.



Posted on: July 18, 2007, 11:41:56 AM
Quote from: Kim on July 18, 2007, 04:50:41 AM
Umm,
  ok, maybe I am a strange sort here but as you all know labels and terminology drives me nuts so let me make this simple. TS' and IS' are women (for m2f and vice versa for f2m of course). A TS has the brain of one gender but was given a body opposite to that. An IS has that plus biological traits (organs etc) of the opposite. That being said there is no choice. To say otherwise is kinda like saying, oh I don't know, a frog waking up one day and deciding he's not a frog. I mean come on folks, if you profess to be TS or IS you are the gender of your brain and you do not have a choice, unless someone knows how to reprogram the brain. No? didn't think so. And the longer you deny to yourself your true gender the more miserable life will be for you.
  And please do not go around saying it is a choice in public, our fight is hard enough now. Having someone say they are TS or IS and walk around saying stuff like this is going to be the death of all of us. And if whoever is saying is is offended by my response then please see your therapist because I think you got misdiagnosed. True legitimate TS' and IS' know what I am saying.
                                                                  Kim   :angel:


I disagree. I will not be responsible for the "death of all transsexuals" if I speak honestly about what I think.

If you hate what I say so much, maybe you can get the president of the transsexual committee to launch a public campaign to smear my reputation or form the "Real Transsexuals" organization and exclude me from joinning. But I will never try to speak on behalf of any other transsexuals. I came here to talk about how I feel, not to engage in in transsexual politics by imposing my values and beliefs on others. I only want to speak for myself and will continue to speak my mind in a considerate manner ,  unlike certain people who have decided to single me out and act in a less than friendly manner.
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Berliegh

I think in some cases it is a choice and these people usually pull out once you start telling them the gritty reality of the situation and the limitations of hormones and their own physical limitations.

I believe a true transsexual will adapt more easily and the pattens and signs would emerge at a much younger age.  We usually fight on because we know there was a problem from birth and our brain function is the opposite of our gender definition by genitalia at birth.

My case is even more complcated as they believe I am intersexed and had a low exposure to testoterone at puberty and I am still undergoing various tests. I didn't have the same development as other boys and my voice didn't break and my male bone development was limited compared to males of the same age and build. I'm not saying that all transsexuals should be born intersexed and many are clearly not but they still have that part of them which quite rightly isn't right. I think in time with more technology the majority of transsexuals will have signs within their DNA, brain scans etc that it will reveal is a genetic condition for a vast majority.
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asiangurliee

Quote from: Berliegh on July 18, 2007, 12:19:28 PM
I think in time with more technology the majority of transsexuals will have signs within their DNA, brain scans etc that it will reveal is a genetic condition for a vast majority.

That would be great, indeed.
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taru

Has anyone in this thread implied that it is a lifestyle choice?

Mostly this thread seems to be about different definitions of choice, and what constituces choosing. Note that choice to receive medical treatment for a serious problem and lifestyle choices are very different things. Some people don't see the first one as choice, others see it as a choice.
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Melissa

Quote from: Berliegh on July 18, 2007, 12:19:28 PM
My case is even more complcated as they believe I am intersexed and had a low exposure to testoterone at puberty and I am still undergoing various tests. I didn't have the same development as other boys and my voice didn't break and my male bone development was limited compared to males of the same age and build.
Yeah, I experienced the same thing.  My voice lowered somewhat, but never broke.  It reverse broke though with HRT, which was strange.  My brother looks MUCH more masculine than me and is 6 inches taller to boot.

I had a karyotype done and the result said that I didn't have XX or XXY in me (I assume that means I'm XY) and I was able to have 2 kids (a girl and a boy).  So I decided to give up the pursuit and I just say I'm TS with feminine features (well actually for the most part I don't say I'm anything at all, but I would say TS now if pressed) which give me a good advantage.  More than likely the features are caused by a variety of factors such as low T levels that caused my body to not masculinize to a high degree and being a twin (some studies show that twins are more likely to have a smaller height and weight).  I was diagnosed with having a varicocele, which could have caused the low T levels.  I also think the fact that I have hypermobile joints and the fact that I went through puberty with lower than normal testosterone levels gave my skeleton a more female shape.  These ideas are just my theories to explain why my body is how it is and still have it correspond with all the test results.  It's kind of a stretch, but it does fit.
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Jessica

QuoteI think in time with more technology the majority of transsexuals will have signs within their DNA, brain scans etc that it will reveal is a genetic condition for a vast majority.

That is what I am waiting for I think.

It's a "You have Permission."

I need to have external validation before I can move at all.

Stupid? Yea, I can accept that.

Kate said it's something she had to get past.

I can't get past it, I've tried.

Maybe I am socially brainwashed, but without external validation I will suffer through this because the alternative, without external validation is that I could just be crazy.  I have to know it's not in my head.
So, I am exercising a choice.  I am choosing unhappiness and depression until such time that science can KNOW that it's physical and I'm not crazy.

It's like, years after my funeral, what will they say?

I'd rather they say, "We don't know what happened, all the sudden this person just offed themself."
than have them say, "This person was a lunatic."

For those of you saying, who cares what other people say? I do. Maybe that's my issue, but, I do care what people think of me.

I guess I am saying, I have made a choice.

Jessica
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taru

Quote from: regina on July 18, 2007, 01:22:41 PM
Taru, it was a dumb joke. Forgive me. Another question I have is, if 'primary' transitioners have no choice and HAVE to transition, should their medical care and surgeries be paid for as non-elective, while those who transition later, who supposedly are CHOOSING to transition, have their procedures viewed as 'elective' surgery which, in this country, is usually paid for out of pocket? Comments?

I think both should be paid. As it is not elective fun choice, but treating an existing medical condition.

An example could be cancer. There is the choice to get treatment for it or not to get treatment and hope it will go miraculously away. Also some people have ethical/religious objections to treatment and will make the other choice. Still cancer treatment is not considered elective, even though some people make the choice not to receive it.

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Lori

Quote from: Jessica on July 18, 2007, 01:28:49 PM
That is what I am waiting for I think.

It's a "You have Permission."

I need to have external validation before I can move at all.

Stupid? Yea, I can accept that.

Kate said it's something she had to get past.

I can't get past it, I've tried.

Maybe I am socially brainwashed, but without external validation I will suffer through this because the alternative, without external validation is that I could just be crazy.  I have to know it's not in my head.
So, I am exercising a choice.  I am choosing unhappiness and depression until such time that science can KNOW that it's physical and I'm not crazy.

It's like, years after my funeral, what will they say?

I'd rather they say, "We don't know what happened, all the sudden this person just offed themself."
than have them say, "This person was a lunatic."

For those of you saying, who cares what other people say? I do. Maybe that's my issue, but, I do care what people think of me.

I guess I am saying, I have made a choice.

Jessica

Wow, you seriously sound like me a year ago. You can keep looking or do something about it. I stopped looking and accepted it for what it is. Either we are all crazy they same way, or medical science has not yet figured it out. They will one day. Probably after I had surgery and it is to late to do anything else about this.

I think I am of sound mind and not crazy. But then again maybe I am insane? Who knows. I do know that on HRT I do not obsess or drive myself or others around me crazy dwelling on being transgendered. Estrogen is magic stuff for me. I feel so good on it. I don't know if it is a high or just gives me so much relief that it feels like being high. Now how can going from an obsessed, 1 track miserable existance to a happy go live my life as a person while on Estrogen be mental?

It is said that hormones control or steer the mind. It is like I gave my mind the right gas and it is running correctly. After chugging along on bad gas for so long, I have physical proof that what I am doing is correct for me, and in that I have my validation and my answer that this is correct for me at this point. After 39 years, I think I would know what feels right and what doesnt. Many could argue I just feel "different" and not just "good". If that is the case, it is a big difference and the difference I feel is what I need.

Hormones are physical things, and I physically need them to physically feel fine. Does that make any sense? I guess I am saying my validation is proof that I feel great, I do not obsess, and it is clear to me this is what I must do.
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asiangurliee

Quote from: Jessica on July 18, 2007, 01:28:49 PM
QuoteI think in time with more technology the majority of transsexuals will have signs within their DNA, brain scans etc that it will reveal is a genetic condition for a vast majority.

That is what I am waiting for I think.

It's a "You have Permission."

I need to have external validation before I can move at all.

Stupid? Yea, I can accept that.

Kate said it's something she had to get past.

I can't get past it, I've tried.

Maybe I am socially brainwashed, but without external validation I will suffer through this because the alternative, without external validation is that I could just be crazy.  I have to know it's not in my head.
So, I am exercising a choice.  I am choosing unhappiness and depression until such time that science can KNOW that it's physical and I'm not crazy.

It's like, years after my funeral, what will they say?

I'd rather they say, "We don't know what happened, all the sudden this person just offed themself."
than have them say, "This person was a lunatic."

For those of you saying, who cares what other people say? I do. Maybe that's my issue, but, I do care what people think of me.

I guess I am saying, I have made a choice.

Jessica

I can totally relate to what you are saying.

It is really horrible when one needs external validiation or 100 percent proof that one is born in the wrong body.

I also ask myself if i am crazy all the time, but estrogen gives me a drive to continue despite whatever doubts that I have. That, however, does not stop me from questioning myself. And I guess it is hard for me as well, because I really care a lot about what other people think.


And while I know that it is all about my personal need and the need to be who I am, and the society should not matter; I cannot really see myself as an independent unit that is independent of everyone's else.

Without society, there is no individual, how can I ever be completely me and discount what everyone else thinks of me or how I was socialized?

I really am jealous of the people who are so sure that they have to transition or commit suicide, because it would be a very easy choice to make if you are either going to blow your brain out or take estrogen.

But while 99 percent of transsexuals might be like this, I hope no one is discounting anyone else who does not feel the same as you do. 




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Sandi

QuoteI don't understand why people don't get that the absolute need to transition is what defines us.

Probably because it isn't an "absolute need" for everyone. Nor is everyone with GID that doesn't have surgery, unhappy with their "choice" to not transition.

We (or I anyway) get that it is an absolute need for you. I also get it, that for the transsexual person I mentioned earlier from Milwaukee, did not have an "absolute need" to transition. That was her choice.  ;)
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Rachael

imo id think proof that your not mad is a good thing? i worreid like hell that i was bonkers till i was diagnosed as intersexed. it laid my mind at rest for sure. But hey,i guess its not for everyone want to know.
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Dennis

Quote from: Rachael on July 18, 2007, 02:31:59 PM
imo id think proof that your not mad is a good thing? i worreid like hell that i was bonkers till i was diagnosed as intersexed. it laid my mind at rest for sure. But hey,i guess its not for everyone want to know.

Those of us who aren't or don't know we are intersexed and transition are certainly not bonkers.

Dennis
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sarahb

Quote from: taru on July 18, 2007, 05:22:20 AM
Here we go again. Different views of what a choice is and whether this should be handled in an objective fashion or as politics.

I think living (i.e. not committing suicide) is a choice.

Thus transitioning (and not committing suicide) is a choice.

Having GID is not a choice and transitioning is (imho) the best path for the most TS inviduals - and for many the only good path.



I beg to differ. Living is not a choice. The act of committing suicide is. Living is something that is uncontrollable and self-sustaining (for the most part). Discontinuing that process of living is a choice since you are taking certain actions to counteract the normal process [of living]. Therefore, transitioning is not a choice, but the act of sustaining your living existing. Now I am not saying that everyone who doesn't transition will kill themselves, but for the ones who need to transition so they can be happy it is not a choice. For others who do not transition, it is not a matter of choosing to transition or not, it's a matter of choosing what's more important in their life...family (or other) or themselves. Those who are not transitioning for those reasons would probably transition were they not in that situation.

Take me for example. I started transitioning 1 1/2 years ago and stopped because of family and stress. I ended up starting it again soon thereafter because I had no choice. For me it was either transition or...something else. The ultimate deciding factor, as some others have said, is how far you need to go to be comfortable and happy with yourself.

What people in our community forget a lot of times is that the TG spectrum is very wide and diverse. There are many paths to choose from that lead to the same conclusion...happiness. If you ever generalize ANYTHING that one must or must not do to be TG, TS, etc., etc. then you are incorrect. This goes for anything: HRT, SRS, facial hair removal, etc. They are all there if one needs them, however, none are required and none are a choice.

With that said, you can see that transitioning is not the choice, not transitioning is the choice.

Sarah
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Rachael

Quote from: Dennis on July 18, 2007, 02:40:05 PM
Quote from: Rachael on July 18, 2007, 02:31:59 PM
imo id think proof that your not mad is a good thing? i worreid like hell that i was bonkers till i was diagnosed as intersexed. it laid my mind at rest for sure. But hey,i guess its not for everyone want to know.

Those of us who aren't or don't know we are intersexed and transition are certainly not bonkers.

Dennis
oh granted no, but it felt that way in my head. just me i guess.
but imo, all trans people are slightly intersexed, i mean, we claim its not mental illness, so there must be some medical background, therefore it must be a medical thing? oh well, some folk dont need/want explanations, im just curuios.
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Suzy

It's hard to believe we're rehashing this again. 

A couple of observations about the dialog on this subject:  Those who are TS and who have transitioned are Pro-Life and Anti-Choice.  Of course I say this tongue in cheek.  They have chosen to live rather than to commit suicide or be unbearably miserable (I'm not sure there's much of a difference.)  And they sincerely do not believe there is a choice in the matter.

I also notice that it is the ones who have transitioned (with or without surgery) who are the ones who are adamant about defining a TS as one who will transition sooner or later.  And their definitions point to the fact that anyone who decides not to transition or cannot for medical or other reasons must not be the real deal.  And of course now we have medical standards to give "credence" to this.  I really must wonder if some (certainly not all) of those who seem so uncompromising on the transition issue do so because they are still, at some level, rather insecure about their own decision to do so. 

My concern with this "who's in the union" mentality is that those who are really struggling, who are trying to decide between the best of multiple evils, may have just as severe (or worse) dysphoria as those who have transitioned.   So now they are dissed by everyone: family, friends, co-workers, and even the rest of the TG community because they don't quite measure up for anyone.  Even their own bodies tell them that, in some crazy way, they are not welcome.  So they are told that if they were really worthy of the grand title of TG  (apparently some kind of holy grail to many), they wouldn't care what anyone thought.   And herein lies the fallacy of this way of thinking.

Most people do care what others think, and some people care a great deal.  They are loved ones:  wives, husbands, parents, children, neighbors, church members........  In fact, they would rather die than scandalize those they hold near and dear.  It should not have to be that way, but right now, society has made it that way.  If they do not physically die, many are living emotionally dead lives, having been denied the core of their happiness.  And the TG community consigns them down to some second tier of importance because their own personal happiness is not at the top of their priority list.  They are excluded and demeaned, not for their medical condition, but for their value system which may put love of and service to others at the very top.  So how many people in this camp finally give up on life because they now fit nowhere?  If they are not fully accepted by the TG community, who will accept them?

There would seem to be a danger of a peer pressure mentality where some are (perhaps unknowingly) pressured into seeking transition for the sake of validation and acceptance.  This is more than disastrous.  It is the classic "tail-wagging-the-dog" and it must be the other way around.  Else, I submit that the system itself is invalid.  It is no longer descriptive but prescriptive.  In that case the system is, in fact, extremely harmful.

I'll stop the rant, and I know that practically no one on here agrees with these sentiments.  And I know most are tired of me making these comments.  That's OK, I can duck.  So lob away.  But before you do, please honestly examine your heart and ask if your actions in perpetuating a caste system just might contribute to the demise of another person who is your soul mate, but in different circumstances.

OK, here come the bricks......


Kristi
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Keira


Kristi, your "rants" are always sensible, like sensible shoes  ;), they're never of the raving lunatic variety (that's so unladylike anyway  :D). Doesn't matter if I agree or not, I admire they're mature tone.
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melissa90299

Quote from: Sandi on July 18, 2007, 02:27:51 PM
QuoteI don't understand why people don't get that the absolute need to transition is what defines us.

Probably because it isn't an "absolute need" for everyone. Nor is everyone with GID that doesn't have surgery, unhappy with their "choice" to not transition.

We (or I anyway) get that it is an absolute need for you. I also get it, that for the transsexual person I mentioned earlier from Milwaukee, did not have an "absolute need" to transition. That was her choice.  ;)


IMNSHO and by definition, without the overwhelming need to transition that afflicts transsexuals, the person is not transsexual.
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tinkerbell

Quote from: melissa90299 on July 18, 2007, 07:26:17 PM
Quote from: Sandi on July 18, 2007, 02:27:51 PM
QuoteI don't understand why people don't get that the absolute need to transition is what defines us.

Probably because it isn't an "absolute need" for everyone. Nor is everyone with GID that doesn't have surgery, unhappy with their "choice" to not transition.

We (or I anyway) get that it is an absolute need for you. I also get it, that for the transsexual person I mentioned earlier from Milwaukee, did not have an "absolute need" to transition. That was her choice.  ;)


IMNSHO and by definition, without the overwhelming need to transition that afflicts transsexuals, the person is not transsexual.

Seconded!

tink :icon_chick:

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