Quote from: Sarah B on July 18, 2007, 03:19:50 PM
Living is not a choice. The act of committing suicide is. Living is something that is uncontrollable and self-sustaining (for the most part). Discontinuing that process of living is a choice since you are taking certain actions to counteract the normal process [of living]. Therefore, transitioning is not a choice, but the act of sustaining your living existing.

In support of your view, Sarah--

Albert Camus, in The Myth of Sisyphus, said there is really only one question in life: Whether or not to commit suicide. What an apt statement for transsexuals.

Quote from: Kristi on July 18, 2007, 10:23:30 PM

Quote from: Melissa on July 18, 2007, 10:10:57 PM

Quote from: Kristi on July 18, 2007, 10:02:48 PM3. The disorder is not a symptom of another mental disorder or a chromosomal abnormality.

Quite the opposite, the disorder has been shown to be the source of other secondary disorders.

Source and symptom are quite the opposite.  A symptom is caused by another source.  This is merely to specify that the GID is not caused by something like Disassociative Identity Disorder (Multiple personalities).

Melissa, that was precisely my point.  Thanks, hot chick!

I think maybe you misread that line in the SOC.  It says for the symptoms of GID, it can NOT be the symptom.  In other words, if it's DID or IS, then that would contraindicate a GID diagnosis.

If you look in the SOC right above where it lists these 3 criteria, it unambiguously says:

QuoteFor persons who did not meet these criteria, Gender Identity Disorder Not Otherwise Specified (GIDNOS)(302.6) was to be used. This category included a variety of individuals, including those who desired only castration or penectomy without a desire to develop breasts, those who wished hormone therapy and mastectomy without genital reconstruction, those with a congenital intersex condition, those with transient stress-related cross-dressing, and those with considerable ambivalence about giving up their gender status.

I highlighted exactly what you described.  It means you have GID (302.6), but would not be considered transsexual (302.85).

Quote from: MeganRose on July 19, 2007, 08:08:23 AM
I have no issue with saying I chose to transition.

I'm going to chance an analogy here: you don't choose to be hungry, but you do have a choice of what to eat. You can eat the food that makes you feel healthy and fulfilled, or you can eat the food that will give you food poisoning and cause you to spend the better part of the evening vomiting. Just because one of the options seems completely irrational to you doesn't mean that you don't have a choice.

We all "chose" to transition, we chose when, we chose this above death or pain or dispair.

We Did Not "chose" to have this condition, we did not ask to live our childhood (and beyond) in frustration, pain or fear.

I "chose" at several points in my life to attempt suicide (once for real, other times letting others know I was going to do it hoping they would stop me).  I finally made the "CHOICE" to transition with a 38 revolver pointed at my head, it was either pull the trigger or transition.  Transitioning won out.

The real question we are talking about here is the "definition" of Choice.

Our choice isn't something we do lightly, it isn't the same as chosing to write a letter in pencil or in ink.  We are choosing where our life goes, we are making the most important choice of our life.

There is more I wanted to say, but I am losing my train of thought.


Sarah L.

Quote from: Rachael on July 18, 2007, 03:30:34 PM

Quote from: Dennis on July 18, 2007, 02:40:05 PM

Quote from: Rachael on July 18, 2007, 02:31:59 PM
imo id think proof that your not mad is a good thing? i worreid like hell that i was bonkers till i was diagnosed as intersexed. it laid my mind at rest for sure. But hey,i guess its not for everyone want to know.

Those of us who aren't or don't know we are intersexed and transition are certainly not bonkers.

Dennis

oh granted no, but it felt that way in my head. just me i guess.
but imo, all trans people are slightly intersexed, i mean, we claim its not mental illness, so there must be some medical background, therefore it must be a medical thing? oh well, some folk dont need/want explanations, im just curuios.

You are right Rachael, it's certainly not a mental illness and I've never liked the way the NHS percieves it that way. When I was first diagnosed the pduchiatrist wrote to my GP and said I do not have any signs of mental illness whatsoever.........so where do they decide to send me 'West London Mental Health'....

Now there's a spanner in the works as it looks like I'm intersexed judging by all the tests I've had at University Hospital so now they have got to look at the situation again. Suddenly this person (me) can't be put in the 'mental health' bracket.....and I wonder how many other people, if you did deep enough have underlying genetic abnormalities as well...

Quote from: Sarah Louise on July 19, 2007, 10:38:22 AM
We all "chose" to transition, we chose when, we chose this above death or pain or dispair.

We Did Not "chose" to have this condition, we did not ask to live our childhood (and beyond) in frustration, pain or fear.

I "chose" at several points in my life to attempt suicide (once for real, other times letting others know I was going to do it hoping they would stop me).  I finally made the "CHOICE" to transition with a 38 revolver pointed at my head, it was either pull the trigger or transition.  Transitioning won out.

The real question we are talking about here is the "definition" of Choice.

Our choice isn't something we do lightly, it isn't the same as chosing to write a letter in pencil or in ink.  We are choosing where our life goes, we are making the most important choice of our life.

Those are some very good points.  The statement that we have no choice is based on the notion that anything that is an inevitability is not really a choice, but merely the illusion of choice.

Quote from: Melissa on July 19, 2007, 10:34:13 AM

Quote from: Kristi on July 18, 2007, 10:23:30 PM

Quote from: Melissa on July 18, 2007, 10:10:57 PM

Quote from: Kristi on July 18, 2007, 10:02:48 PM3. The disorder is not a symptom of another mental disorder or a chromosomal abnormality.

Quite the opposite, the disorder has been shown to be the source of other secondary disorders.

Source and symptom are quite the opposite.  A symptom is caused by another source.  This is merely to specify that the GID is not caused by something like Disassociative Identity Disorder (Multiple personalities).

Melissa, that was precisely my point.  Thanks, hot chick!

I think maybe you misread that line in the SOC.  It says for the symptoms of GID, it can NOT be the symptom.  In other words, if it's DID or IS, then that would contraindicate a GID diagnosis.

If you look in the SOC right above where it lists these 3 criteria, it unambiguously says:

QuoteFor persons who did not meet these criteria, Gender Identity Disorder Not Otherwise Specified (GIDNOS)(302.6) was to be used. This category included a variety of individuals, including those who desired only castration or penectomy without a desire to develop breasts, those who wished hormone therapy and mastectomy without genital reconstruction, those with a congenital intersex condition, those with transient stress-related cross-dressing, and those with considerable ambivalence about giving up their gender status.

I highlighted exactly what you described.  It means you have GID (302.6), but would not be considered transsexual (302.85).

Yep. And I honestly think BPD should be in there as a contraindiction. The core of BPD is that the person has no cohesive identity and does at times think their the opposite gender.

Wait a minute, so what label would you call someone who has is taking HRT and not considering genital reconstruction?


I think it is absolutely demeaning to say that such person is not a transsexual. Being on HRT is  *changing* one's sex.


According to THE STANDARDS OF CARE FOR GENDER IDENTITY DISORDERS -- SIXTH VERSION

"Transgender is not a formal diagnosis, but many professionals and members of the public found it easier to use informally than GIDNOS, which is a formal diagnosis."


And under the heading "Surgery" it reads:


"Sex Reassignment is Effective and Medically Indicated in Severe GID. In persons diagnosed with transsexualism or profound GID, sex reassignment surgery, along with hormone therapy and real life experience, is a treatment that has proven to be effective. Such a therapeutic regimen, when prescribed or recommended by qualified practitioners, is medically indicated and medically necessary. Sex reassignment is not "experimental," "investigational," "elective," "cosmetic," or optional in any meaningful sense. It constitutes very effective and appropriate treatment for transsexualism or profound GID."



So someone diagnosed with profound  GID or transsexualism might opt for sex reassignment surgery, it does not say that someone who does not opt for sex reassignment surgery cannot be diagnosed with transsexualism. If someone is diagnosed with transsexualism, why aren't they called transsexuals whether or not if they have profound GID or require SRS as the choice of treatment?

Quote from: asiangurliee on July 19, 2007, 12:44:35 PMSo someone diagnosed with profound  GID or transsexualism might opt for sex reassignment surgery, it does not say that someone who does not opt for sex reassignment surgery cannot be diagnosed with transsexualism. If someone is diagnosed with transsexualism, why aren't they called transsexuals whether or not if they have profound GID or require SRS as the choice of treatment?

Might opt?  According to your own quotations:

Quote from: asiangurliee on July 19, 2007, 12:44:35 PMSex reassignment is not "experimental," "investigational," "elective," "cosmetic," or optional in any meaningful sense.

The dictionary defines "opt" as:

QuoteTo make a choice from a number of alternatives.

Transsexuals are not just "opting" for it because it is not optional--it is required treatment.  I would suggest rereading your post, since you basically answer your own questions inside of it.

Quote from: Melissa on July 19, 2007, 01:33:11 PM

Quote from: asiangurliee on July 19, 2007, 12:44:35 PMSo someone diagnosed with profound  GID or transsexualism might opt for sex reassignment surgery, it does not say that someone who does not opt for sex reassignment surgery cannot be diagnosed with transsexualism. If someone is diagnosed with transsexualism, why aren't they called transsexuals whether or not if they have profound GID or require SRS as the choice of treatment?

Might opt?  According to your own quotations:

Quote from: asiangurliee on July 19, 2007, 12:44:35 PMSex reassignment is not "experimental," "investigational," "elective," "cosmetic," or optional in any meaningful sense.

The dictionary defines "opt" as:

QuoteTo make a choice from a number of alternatives.

Transsexuals are not just "opting" for it because it is not optional--it is required treatment.  I would suggest rereading your post, since you basically answer your own questions inside of it.

Sorry, I didn't mean it like that. My English might not be too good.

I checked the word "opt" on m-w dictionary, it said:


Etymology: French opter, from Latin optare
: to make a choice; especially : to decide in favor of something <opted for a tax increase -- Tom Wicker>


I would think that when you sign the form that you will be having the surgery, you are making a decision that you will put yourself through the surgery, and it is not an option for you, but it is something you *decide* to do, otherwise, the surgeon can't perform anything on you without *your* consent.

I never meant that the choice to transition is lifestyle choices.


And transitioning might not be *optional* in a *meaningful* sense, it does not mean that a person did not make the decision to transition, unless someone forced fed estrogen to you against your will.

I've always considered that we wake up everyday and make the choice to live, and we make the choice *how* we want to live. That's what I meant by *choice*.

Anyways, my question about not considering transsexuals who take HRT but do not want surgery to be transsexual remains. 

QuoteSo someone diagnosed with profound  GID or transsexualism might opt for sex reassignment surgery, it does not say that someone who does not opt for sex reassignment surgery cannot be diagnosed with transsexualism. If someone is diagnosed with transsexualism, why aren't they called transsexuals whether or not if they have profound GID or require SRS as the choice of treatment?

Correct, according to my understanding of the SOC, they are TS. I worked with a therapist for a few years, I was diagnosed as TS, SRS was among the possible treatments for that condition. My diagnosis didn't magically change to non-TS when I didn't choose to pursue that treatment.

zythyra

Quote from: asiangurliee on July 19, 2007, 01:39:10 PMI would think that when you sign the form that you will having he surgery, you are making a decision that you will put yourself through the surgery, and it is not an option for you, but it is something you *decide* to do, otherwise, the surgeon can't perform anything on you without *your* consent.

Making a decision (or choice) and taking an action are 2 different things.

Quote from: asiangurliee on July 19, 2007, 01:39:10 PMAnyways, my question about not considering transsexuals who take HRT but do not want surgery to be transsexual remains.

Again, that was already answered.  According to the SOC (you decide how much credence you want to give it), the answer would be no.  If you think the SOC is a bunch of BS, then it really doesn't matter what that person calls themself.

Quote from: zythyra on July 19, 2007, 01:39:57 PM

QuoteSo someone diagnosed with profound  GID or transsexualism might opt for sex reassignment surgery, it does not say that someone who does not opt for sex reassignment surgery cannot be diagnosed with transsexualism. If someone is diagnosed with transsexualism, why aren't they called transsexuals whether or not if they have profound GID or require SRS as the choice of treatment?

Correct, according to my understanding of the SOC, they are TS. I worked with a therapist for a few years, I was diagnosed as TS, SRS was among the possible treatments for that condition. My diagnosis didn't magically change to non-TS when I didn't choose to pursue that treatment.

zythyra

Definitely, I don't like it when someone says you are not a TS according to their own subjective opinion on what a TS is.

Should we be called part time transsexuals? Who has the right to tell us who is true TS or not? Who can define who? Only we know who we are, really.

We can define ourselve in any way we wish.  We can not force the world to accept our definition.  The world has a way of making up its own mind.

Saying that, we still have to live with who we are.  It is our life, our decision, we don't have to accept what others think of us.

It is your life, live it.


Sarah L.

Quote from: Melissa on July 19, 2007, 01:45:58 PM

Quote from: asiangurliee on July 19, 2007, 01:39:10 PMI would think that when you sign the form that you will having he surgery, you are making a decision that you will put yourself through the surgery, and it is not an option for you, but it is something you *decide* to do, otherwise, the surgeon can't perform anything on you without *your* consent.

Making a decision (or choice) and taking an action are 2 different things.

Quote from: asiangurliee on July 19, 2007, 01:39:10 PMAnyways, my question about not considering transsexuals who take HRT but do not want surgery to be transsexual remains.

Again, that was already answered.  According to the SOC (you decide how much credence you want to give it), the answer would be no.  If you think the SOC is a bunch of BS, then it really doesn't matter what that person calls themself.

I don't understand you at all. I am quoting from the SOC, I am not the one who is treating it as a "bunch o BS.'

I don't really appreciate you putting words in my mouth and pretending to know what I think about the SOC when you obviously don't.

The SOC said it is not "optional" in any "meaningful" sense, it didn't say it that SRS is not a decision or something the patient choose to go through because they do not see any other "meaningful" option to live without having a genital reconstruction. Don't twist my words. 


Have you heard of the expression, "making the only choice possible to him" ?

For some transsexuals, SRS is the *only* choice they can take if they choose to save their own life or have any chance to live a life that is not filled with misery.

What is so shocking or wrong about that? If you found my *choice* of word so disagreeable, okay, but there is no need to be hostile to me. I don't understand the hostility. If I make the choice to have SRS, I would choose to peruse this option because it is the only way for me to be happy about who I am and have a chance at a happy life.

I wouldn't care if someone said it is a choice or not, because I am secure with my choice, and I know that it is the only choice that is for me.

If some republicans or conservatives want to deny me health insurance coverage for my surgery because I make the choice to have this surgery, I would blame the republicans or conservatives , not someone who uses the word "choice" to describe their transitioning. 


I failed to understand how you can say that I think "SOC" is a bunch of BS and I still like to know where did the SOC say that a person who takes HRT or who has been diagnosed as a transsexual is *not* a transsexual because they do not choose to peruse SRS.

Quote from: asiangurliee on July 19, 2007, 01:56:40 PMI don't understand you at all. I am quoting from the SOC, I am not the one who is treating it as a "bunch o BS.'

I don't really appreciate you putting words in my mouth and pretending to know what I think about the SOC when you obviously don't.

Quote from: asiangurliee on July 19, 2007, 01:56:40 PMI failed to understand how you can say that I think "SOC" is a bunch of BS and I still like to know where did the SOC say that a person who takes HRT or who has been diagnosed as a transsexual is *not* a transsexual because they do not choose to peruse SRS.

I didn't say that you think it is a bunch of BS.  I said: "IF you think it is..." It's just that some people do.

Quote from: Melissa on July 19, 2007, 01:45:58 PMIf you think the SOC is a bunch of BS, then it really doesn't matter what that person calls themself.

Quote from: asiangurliee on July 19, 2007, 01:56:40 PMThe SOC said it is not "optional" in any "meaningful" sense, it didn't say it that SRS is not a decision or something the patient choose to go through because they do not see any other "meaningful" option to live without having a genital reconstruction. Don't twist my words. 


Have you heard of the expression, "making the only choice possible to him" ?

For some transsexuals, SRS is the *only* choice they can take if they choose to save their own life or have any chance to live a life that is not filled with misery.

What is so shocking or wrong about that? If you found my *choice* of word so disagreeable, okay, but there is no need to be hostile to me. I don't understand the hostility. If I make the choice to have SRS, I would choose to peruse this option because it is the only way for me to be happy about who I am and have a chance at a happy life.

I wouldn't care if someone said it is a choice or not, because I am secure with my choice, and I know that it is the only choice that is for me.

If some republicans or conservatives want to deny me health insurance coverage for my surgery because I make the choice to have this surgery, I would blame the republicans or conservatives, not someone who uses the word "choice" to describe their transitioning. 

To be honest, I've kind of grown tired of this conversation.  Call yourself whatever you want.  It really doesn't matter, nor does it affect the end result, which is living your life how you want it.  It's just a label.

I'm sorry that I came across as hostile.  I was just adamantly defending my opinion and I usually am very concise and get right to the point, which sometimes gets misinterpreted as hostility (perhaps something I should work on).  That's all it was--just my opinion based on how I read the SOC.  The SOC is a big generalization meant to cover all transsexuals and because we are all different, you can't expect it to be perfect.  So if I offended you, I'm sorry for that.

I know that SRS is right for me and transition was not much of a choice.  I tried everything else first (including suicide) and it was the last thing left.  At my lowest point when I had no other options, I was literally reduced to tears laying on the floor just saying about every awful thing I could about myself.  I wanted to just "give up" in life and do absolutely nothing including getting up off the floor, but that's not really an option since you are still alive and eventually survival instincts kick in. 

When there is only one possible course of action remaining, it's not really a choice.  I just don't want people discrediting my feelings and how I feel about this (I'm not saying you were).  My parents have done that a lot and as a result, I've been hurt by it, so I tend to be a bit sensitive.  That's where I was coming from.  I will attempt to show the same respect for others' feelings and opinions.

Quote from: Melissa on July 19, 2007, 04:35:05 PM

Quote from: asiangurliee on July 19, 2007, 01:56:40 PMI don't understand you at all. I am quoting from the SOC, I am not the one who is treating it as a "bunch o BS.'

I don't really appreciate you putting words in my mouth and pretending to know what I think about the SOC when you obviously don't.

Quote from: asiangurliee on July 19, 2007, 01:56:40 PMI failed to understand how you can say that I think "SOC" is a bunch of BS and I still like to know where did the SOC say that a person who takes HRT or who has been diagnosed as a transsexual is *not* a transsexual because they do not choose to peruse SRS.

I didn't say that you think it is a bunch of BS.  I said: "IF you think it is..." It's just that some people do.

Quote from: Melissa on July 19, 2007, 01:45:58 PMIf you think the SOC is a bunch of BS, then it really doesn't matter what that person calls themself.

Quote from: asiangurliee on July 19, 2007, 01:56:40 PMThe SOC said it is not "optional" in any "meaningful" sense, it didn't say it that SRS is not a decision or something the patient choose to go through because they do not see any other "meaningful" option to live without having a genital reconstruction. Don't twist my words. 


Have you heard of the expression, "making the only choice possible to him" ?

For some transsexuals, SRS is the *only* choice they can take if they choose to save their own life or have any chance to live a life that is not filled with misery.

What is so shocking or wrong about that? If you found my *choice* of word so disagreeable, okay, but there is no need to be hostile to me. I don't understand the hostility. If I make the choice to have SRS, I would choose to peruse this option because it is the only way for me to be happy about who I am and have a chance at a happy life.

I wouldn't care if someone said it is a choice or not, because I am secure with my choice, and I know that it is the only choice that is for me.

If some republicans or conservatives want to deny me health insurance coverage for my surgery because I make the choice to have this surgery, I would blame the republicans or conservatives , not someone who uses the word "choice" to describe their transitioning. 

To be honest, I've kind of grown tired of this conversation.  Call yourself whatever you want.  It really doesn't matter, nor does it affect the end result, which is living your life how you want it.  It's just a label.

I'm sorry that I came across as hostile.  I was just adamantly defending my opinion and I usually am very concise and get right to the point, which sometimes gets misinterpreted as hostility (perhaps something I should work on).  That's all it was--just my opinion based on how I read the SOC.  The SOC is a big generalization meant to cover all transsexuals and because we are all different, you can't expect it to be perfect.  So if I offended you, I'm sorry for that.

I know that SRS is right for me and transition was not much of a choice.  I tried everything else first (including suicide) and it was the last thing left.  When there is only one possible course of action remaining, it's not really a choice.  I just don't want people discrediting my feelings and how I feel about this.  I will attempt to show the same respect for others' feelings and opinions.

I understand. I am pretty persistent. I don't think SRS is a choice anyone would like to make if there is another way to live.

I personally feel the same way as well. I just feel that it is a mistake to think that just because someone does not has "profound" GID or have "SRS" or does not *transition*, they are not going through their own personal hell.  If anything, I think it is harder when one doesn't have a blueprint for life, and one doesn't know what one can do or one can't take the action to peruse SRS (for whatever reasons)  in order to alleviate their own discomfort about their gender.

I personally like to be in a situation that I have to choose SRS or die because it would have been easier.

And I am sick of this conversation as well, talking on this topic is like stepping on a minefield. I just can't shut up, I guess.

if were being technical, if someone refuses GRS when it is available, (atainable i should say) then maybe thier dysphoria is less so?

Quote from: Rachael on July 19, 2007, 05:16:55 PM
if were being technical, if someone refuses GRS when it is available, (atainable i should say) then maybe thier dysphoria is less so?

I wouldn't like to judge anyone on that comnment as a lot of GRS operations done through the NHS in the U.K go wrong. One patient I met had to have 14 operations to put the first one right. I have also met others who have suffered with various problems afterwards which are pretty gory so I won't go into detail. I must admit I really want the operation but the NHS hasn't got a very good success rate from the statistics I've seen so far....

Quote from: morticia on July 19, 2007, 07:04:17 PM
Transitioning is not a choice.  For ME..  Well, maybe it is, but for it to be a choice there has to be an alternative.
And the alternative to transitioning, for me, is suicide.

So you see, it's a no-brainer.

For others, YMMV......

it's right for you going by your photograph..

A very dear member said here once.  If transition is merely a choice for you.  Please DO NOT transition, for you don't know what you are getting into.

tink


P.S.  Thanks riot grrrrrrl   Words of wisdom as always.