Hello, just looking for a bit od advice. My wife is accepting of me becoming a women except for a few things. Most of which I feel will work themselves out with enough time. But she is stuck on one thing and its stopping her from wanting me to take hormones.

She feels that I will become this barbie-girl wanna be who wears nothing but pink and as she puts it will be as girly as humanly possible. Right down to not wanting to be with the goth punk rock girl that she is. I don't know where she gets it from. I am not a fan of pink and love the darker things. Everything she is worried about goes against wgo I am.

Any advice from another source to help convince her would be appreciated.

Quote from: chrissydr on October 28, 2013, 05:54:20 AM
Hello, just looking for a bit od advice. My wife is accepting of me becoming a women except for a few things. Most of which I feel will work themselves out with enough time. But she is stuck on one thing and its stopping her from wanting me to take hormones.

She feels that I will become this barbie-girl wanna be who wears nothing but pink and as she puts it will be as girly as humanly possible. Right down to not wanting to be with the goth punk rock girl that she is. I don't know where she gets it from. I am not a fan of pink and love the darker things. Everything she is worried about goes against wgo I am.

Any advice from another source to help convince her would be appreciated.

You are a woman and therefore have the same right as any other woman ... which is to be whatever kind of woman you like.

Your wife likes to be a 'goth punk rock girl'. My wife is more your elegant, immaculate Grace Kelly blonde. Chancellor Merkel of Germany and Hillary Clinton are take-charge women who rule the roost and do it as well as any man. Women are executives, athletes, actors, porn stars, homemakers, mothers, factory workers, farmers, supermodels, peasants, professors, drag kings, butch, femme, thin, fat ... of every height, weight, shape, race, religion ... and every possible combination of all the things I've just listed.

You are you ... and no one, not even your wife has the right to dictate who that 'you' is going to be.

You go, girl! 

My wife was afraid of the exact same thing... and I DID go through a "Barbie phase," even. Luckily for both of us, it lasted about 2 months at the very beginning. I don't know if it will reassure your wife, but I ended up pretty much the same sort of person I'd been before; once that phase was over, I was slightly less likely to wear ratty clothes, but I rarely wear makeup or jewelry or bother to femme it up.

You presumably love her for who she is; that's not likely to change, either. Hopefully once you make some progress in transition and she sees that you're not transforming into a pod person, she'll be able to relax a bit.

My wife is visibly unhappy and vocally unsupportive when I do things she sees as too girly. Of course we're splitting up, so I feel comfortable ignoring her, but I am pretty sure her femininity feels threatened, if such a thing is possible.

By observation those of you who come to transition as adults do often go through a hyper-feminine phase that those of us "lucky?" enough to have grown up as girls get out of our systems in childhood and adolescence. (I'm in the slightly unusual place of having had SRS 30 years ago but having still all but grown up as female).

Anyway the point is going through that phase isn't obligatory, but it does quite often happen - although in all but the most extreme cases of ?idiocy/Stubbornness? you will grow out of it soon enough for very good reasons. Mainly because frankly if you want to blend in, or as you might say, "pass" then just DON'T GO THERE - because for trans spotters it's the biggest single give away on the planet. That and having oh to damn perfect surgically tweaked features and or makeup!

Most natal females actually look fairly average, have quite a few masculine features, have hair that isn't perfect and minimal makeup - 99% of the time you folks fail because you try far too damn hard to be perfect! I can't say I blame you, after all you didn't get the fun of doing it in your teens - but just remember while you are doing it, that you aren't actually doing your self any great favours with regards to not being noticed.

So point is - you can reassure her that IF you do so, it will only be a phase, and that in all probability she went through that phase herself. I know I did when I was about 12! By 13 or 14 I had been mostly teased out of it by my peers.

Ain't nothin' wrong with pink.

When you're beginning HRT, it's possible you'll try all kinds of styles and stuff...just like any other teen girl. After that time, you'll settle down, probably pretty close to where you as a guy (but as a woman).

I'd suggest that your wife have a bit of patience, and trust that you will make the right choice for yourself.

Quote from: Doctorwho? on October 28, 2013, 06:21:25 PM
By observation those of you who come to transition as adults do often go through a hyper-feminine phase that those of us "lucky?" enough to have grown up as girls get out of our systems in childhood and adolescence.

There is the occasional exception to the rule. I have yet to be hoodwinked into wearing a skirt, much less a dress. And pink is the enemy, as far as I'm concerned.

But, yes, the average person taking a superficial look at trans women, could hardly be faulted for making an assumption of extreme femininity. It doesn't HAVE to go down that way though. It depends on the kind of woman you end up as. Which makes your wife's concern totally understandable. What kind of woman WILL you be? Will you still want her? Will she still want you? Will you be anything like the person you are now?

You can't guarantee the answer to any of those questions. Hell, you can't even guarantee you'll still want to be with ANY kind of woman post-HRT. I'd suggest trying to listen to and respect her concerns with your transition. Promise to keep communication open, and understand that this is may be a fairly rough process for her. But it is something you really need to do.

It's a bit of a dice roll. I kept my sexuality and my dislike for pink, but I'm almost but not entirely completely unlike the person I was pre-transition. Luckily the people in my life consider me the upgraded model and it doesn't bother them too much. But promising "I'll be exactly the same, honey"? Um... good luck with that. Sorry.

Quote from: Doctorwho? on October 28, 2013, 06:21:25 PM
By observation those of you who come to transition as adults do often go through a hyper-feminine phase that those of us "lucky?" enough to have grown up as girls get out of our systems in childhood and adolescence. (I'm in the slightly unusual place of having had SRS 30 years ago but having still all but grown up as female).

Anyway the point is going through that phase isn't obligatory, but it does quite often happen - although in all but the most extreme cases of ?idiocy/Stubbornness? you will grow out of it soon enough for very good reasons. Mainly because frankly if you want to blend in, or as you might say, "pass" then just DON'T GO THERE - because for trans spotters it's the biggest single give away on the planet. That and having oh to damn perfect surgically tweaked features and or makeup!

So you're saying (correct me if I'm wrong) that passing is completely dependent on not wearing pink? That's odd, I have seen adult women wearing pink, granted not too often and not too much, but in reasonable doses...and I suspect "trans spotters" look more for the Adam's apple, chin, brow bone, and perhaps a poor tuck job over pink. Like I said, I could be wrong on this, but methinks you painted with too broad a brush.

I also detect perhaps a twinge of jealousy in the comment "too damn perfect surgically tweaked features". While plastic surgery can be overdone, that is usually the result of multiple "tweakings" and almost a compulsion to have The Perfect Face. I think (my opinion) that most people go for "reasonable modifications", not perfection.

And yes, too much makeup is a giveaway. But, how much is "too much"? For some people, more than just tinted moisturizer is "too much"...others go the whole shebang, eyeliner, bronzer, shading, etc. Oh wait, we're talking about trans*women here. Silly me, I have seen cis-women do all of the above too. Yes again, most cis-women go without, or without the entire face done-up, but that's usually due to normal daily routine. Go out for the evening, and it takes a couple hours.

In my opinion, it's not so much the amount of makeup, it's the time of day and what one is planning on doing. Discernment of appropriate times to wear makeup, and how much, can only be gained by experience, which leads to hindsight. Yes, we should always learn from others...unless they are limiting our learning experiences with Pronouncements From On High.

QuoteMost natal females actually look fairly average, have quite a few masculine features, have hair that isn't perfect and minimal makeup - 99% of the time you folks fail because you try far too damn hard to be perfect! I can't say I blame you, after all you didn't get the fun of doing it in your teens - but just remember while you are doing it, that you aren't actually doing your self any great favours with regards to not being noticed.

What do you mean, "you people"? 

QuoteSo point is - you can reassure her that IF you do so, it will only be a phase, and that in all probability she went through that phase herself. I know I did when I was about 12! By 13 or 14 I had been mostly teased out of it by my peers.

While I sympathize with teen bullying (being a survivor of the special torment of childish bullies), what happened during elementary school years should not influence how we, as adults, behave. We don't have bullies and "The Fashion Police" to rap our knuckles because we aren't wearing Dockers, jeans, tennis shoes of a particular brand, mismatched (or clashing) colors...we can just live, as we see fit. We can push the boundaries as far as we're able to, considering courage and innovation.

Everyone's different.

Quote from: Sarah7 on October 28, 2013, 06:53:02 PM
There is the occasional exception to the rule. I have yet to be hoodwinked into wearing a skirt, much less a dress. And pink is the enemy, as far as I'm concerned.

"Hoodwinked"? Are you suggesting that those of us who do wear dresses or skirts have been?

QuoteBut, yes, the average person taking a superficial look at trans women, could hardly be faulted for making an assumption of extreme femininity. It doesn't HAVE to go down that way though. It depends on the kind of woman you end up as. Which makes your wife's concern totally understandable. What kind of woman WILL you be? Will you still want her? Will she still want you? Will you be anything like the person you are now?

You can't guarantee the answer to any of those questions. Hell, you can't even guarantee you'll still want to be with ANY kind of woman post-HRT. I'd suggest trying to listen to and respect her concerns with your transition. Promise to keep communication open, and understand that this is may be a fairly rough process for her. But it is something you really need to do.

It's a bit of a dice roll. I kept my sexuality and my dislike for pink, but I'm almost but not entirely completely unlike the person I was pre-transition. Luckily the people in my life consider me the upgraded model and it doesn't bother them too much. But promising "I'll be exactly the same, honey"? Um... good luck with that. Sorry.

Agreed, such a promise cannot be made. Too many changes happen. But, it is still a possibility. It depends on how true to yourself one is, prior to transitioning. Sometimes the only thing concealed is the transgender aspect...sometimes we try (too hard, perhaps) to be The Ultimate Manly Man, and as such experience a radical change.

But there is simply no telling until after the fact.

She may be afraid of you stealing her place as the more feminine one of the two, in which case she may find her female identity contested in a way. It's not logical, it's about feelings.

I understand it. I'm straight, but should I ever end up with a girl, she would definitely need to be more masculine than I, because in a couple I just need to be the more feminine one, that's how I am. Or so I think I am. My love experience is close to zero, after all. But forget the whole sexual orientation change thing, it'd be the same with a man. I probably couldn't be happy with a girly man who'd expect me to be his woman-boyfriend.

I think most people have a role they're comfortable in in romantic (and sexual, for that matter) relationships, and they can't be asked to change that without consequences. Existing love for the person or other strong external factors may force the change, but in a "basic" way, people are gonna stay the way they are. And in maybe a proportion of 75 %, in heterosexual relationships (which yours was supposed to be), the man and woman will tend to roughly have their respective stereotypical role, to a certain extent. And even, in some (no idea how many, I haven't seen enough) homosexual relationships, that will be true too. I don't know the numbers, but there are some lipstick lesbian / butch lesbian relationships that in many ways work like heterosexual relationships. Same for girlier man / manlier man relationships.

Basically, it might be that your wife is afraid of you being the girlier one, and she having to be the "woman-husband" because of your now girlier expectations. Which may or may not be true. You certainly know better than I do. And if indeed you think you might be girlier than her after all is said and done, well, you may have to choose between intently being the more masculine one and making her adjust. Because I don't know how typical your relationship was before you came out, but between a typical hetero relationship and a relationship between two girly women, there's a margin of difference, and the adaptation may be hard. Or impossible. Or easy.

If I could get away with a bit of a Barbie phase, I certainly would - but alas, I'd look more like Dubble Bubble than Barbie, lol!

Quote from: Visitor_591 on October 28, 2013, 10:03:18 PM
So you're saying (correct me if I'm wrong) that passing is completely dependent on not wearing pink?

I also detect perhaps a twinge of jealousy in the comment "too damn perfect surgically tweaked features".

No I'm not saying anything like that at all and I suspect you know it. The comments are meant to be taken loosely and absolutely not in any sense literally. They are also very slightly tongue in cheek. What I am warning about is the mismatch between apparent life stage and presented style - as for example when you get a 60 year old wearing a hello kitty outfit complete with pigtails. Now I grant you that there may be some older ladies out there who would do that, and good luck to them if they do - but if one is trying not to be noticed, its probably not a good strategy.

As for jealousy again nope. Without being a super model I'm an adequately good looking woman for my age, which is usually read as being fifteen to twenty years younger than I actually am. So on the whole I'm pretty happy. I've not had any problems getting a partner. My last relationship lasted 25 years, before my partner, who may not survive till xmas, developed terminal dementia. Meanwhile in the couple of years recently, that I have effectively been single again, I haven't been lacking for potential suitors

Point is I could have had a lot of tweaks, but you know what? even on supermodels a lot of the time the results don't look that great to my eyes. There is a quality to nature that cosmetic work seldom manages to replicate I fear. Although with being a medic I may be an unfair judge, it's true.

Personally I would hate to stand out in a crowd. I like to be admired for my intellect and warmth, I don't enjoy being eye candy. In fact I honestly can't think of anything I would hate more than to be someones pinup. So to my eyes a lot of the time people inexplicably focus on the wrong things when they are trying to blend in. Maybe they don't want to blend in? I don't know, perhaps thats the difference, but for me I've always aspired to be unremarkable.

Now if, like me, you do want to blend then, while you don't have to be ugly, it doesn't pay to be too attractive either, because if you are attractive people who are attracted to you are going to scrutinise you more closely... and when they do, if there are signs to be seen, they are more likely to notice them than if they just smiled at you and then passed you by without a second thought, because you are gloriously averagely normal, which is what happens to me.

Anyway all of which is slightly off topic. The only real point in what I originally said - which I hope you actually realised even while cheekily taking me to task for some of my loose illustrative discourse - was that a.) the over girly phase, is just a phase for most. and b.) those of us who got to grow up more or less in desired gender had the advantage of getting stuff out of our systems and finding our styles while still young. The world expects youngster to be a bit odd - and so it attracts less note. Unfortunately you have to do your experimentation when older, which is more difficult. So I understand why people go through the phase, because it must be horrible to have been deprived of the chance... however the mismatch in age unfortunately makes it more difficult to do so without attracting comment. That's it really.

PS as a footnote - I don't think you were around back when I was, for a couple of years, a mod on this site in a previous regeneration so to speak, but I'm sure you'll all get used to my slightly tongue in cheek style of discourse.

Hey, tell her you know someone in an internet forum who is TS and after transition was not only a goth rock girl but even an organizer of gothic parties for the lgbt community. And who does not own anything meaningful in pink. That would be me. I am amazed a goth punk rock girl like she has such stereotypes in her head about TS folks. Not even the open public TS figures are like that (anymore)

Just be whoever you are. If you wear pink girly girl froo froo, that's your business. However if you're just doing to get it out of your system, instead of doing it because it matches your deep seated personality, people will notice and they will either find you unattractive as a person, or get a good laugh because of you.

I transitioned in my late 20s and I never went through that stage. I went from being some closed in boy that was too blah to do anything, to a girl that doesn't go out much, but has fun when she does. I have a little pink in my wardrobe but overall it's white, purple, teal, neon green, etc. It's not all frilly either. In fact, most of my wardrobe comes from other women either my age ... or my mom.

My profile pic is what I was wearing at pride, and that is the ONLY time I've ever worn it. It is NOT who I am ... but I rocked it because deep down, celebrating is something I can do well. But since transition, I've ALWAYS worn stuff appropriate to my age and personality. If anything, I've been told I need to wear CUTER stuff because I'm making myself look a little plain at times when I can pull off something better.

Anyways, not everybody goes through the frilly doll dance phase. I suggest you find your inner girl and buy those... instead of buying clothes for the girl you idealize. What I mean by that, is look at YOUR feminine side, not anybody elses... it's not going to be that far separated from who you are as a boy.

Quote from: anjaq on October 29, 2013, 07:14:12 PM
Hey, tell her you know someone in an internet forum who is TS and after transition was not only a goth rock girl but even an organizer of gothic parties for the lgbt community. And who does not own anything meaningful in pink. That would be me. I am amazed a goth punk rock girl like she has such stereotypes in her head about TS folks. Not even the open public TS figures are like that (anymore)

LOL!!! I have a friend who's a bit of a goth......to see a pic of her in anything but black would likely cause a heart attack for me, lol!!! I'm not into the kink part of it, but I have a LOT of goth and industrial music on my iPod, snicker

Yeah i mean personal style is just individual and to assume TS women go for pink and high heels is just following stereotypes and actually slightly offensive. I had "boy clothes" during transition and girls clothes as well - that is I was a girl and still I did wear some of the boy clothes because i liked them. I totally fell for the color blue though for a while. Had everything in blue (not pink - lol), but no frilly stuff. Just regular late teenage girls stuff (I was in my early 20ies there, with HRT I looked like 17, so it suited me). Later more black crept in and I turned goth including hair dyed black and white. Now i am actually kind of boring - just various pants and shirts and sneakers usually. So in all that time I never really had that "doll phase" too much. I thought it to be silly, but I guess for some it is needed. Especially if you kept yourself hidden due to a lot of pressure to be male or for a long time - then it just has to burst out and overshoot maybe.

EDIT: I have to revise what I said about not having anything pink of significance. I did not choose that color, but the Chat staff button is pink >.> 
The downside of me never have been in the doll phase maybe is that I still feel not quite comfortable with skirts and high heels - in cases I need to wear those, I feel odd. It is fun but it also is a bit odd - well except medieval- or gothic style wardrobe - then I even like skirts and would totally wear a corset as well - but thats "occasions", not daily business

pink is great...in small doses, like stripes on a sweater or as stitches on a tee. But i cant say what will happen once u start hormnes i am very different than 8 months ago.

Quote from: Visitor_591 on October 28, 2013, 10:03:18 PM
"Hoodwinked"? Are you suggesting that those of us who do wear dresses or skirts have been?

No, actually. I think skirts and dresses look lovely. Just not on me.

I was referring to the at times incredible amount of pressure I used to get early in my transition from family, friends, therapists, and other trans folks to shift my appearance toward something more traditionally feminine. Of all the things people seemed to expect out of my transition, a boyish andro dyke wasn't one of them.

Quote from: Visitor_591 on October 28, 2013, 10:03:18 PM
Agreed, such a promise cannot be made. Too many changes happen. But, it is still a possibility. It depends on how true to yourself one is, prior to transitioning. Sometimes the only thing concealed is the transgender aspect...sometimes we try (too hard, perhaps) to be The Ultimate Manly Man, and as such experience a radical change.

But there is simply no telling until after the fact.

It isn't necessarily The Ultimate Manly Man project either that has such an extensive impact on reorganizing your personality. I was a pretty fey boy pre-transition. I was quiet, shy, intellectual, reserved, and well, frankly, pretty obviously depressed.

With the depression gone, the effect has been rather dramatic. As it turns out there was a whole person hiding under that cloud. I still have some shyness around new people, but I don't think my prior incarnation would ever have been called "cheeky" by my boss, "charming" by my girlfriend, or even "fun" by my folks.

It took a long time for me to realize it too. I was at about a year after going full time, a year and a half after starting hormones and not long post-op, and I was expressing my fears to my best friend about moving to a new city and wondering if I would be able to cope with that, because previous efforts to move away from my support structure had not gone super well. And he just looked at me like I was crazy and blurted out, "but why would that happen, you are a completely different person now." That's when it hit me how much I really had changed. How nearly unrecognizable I am compared to the creature I used to be. And how much better off I, and everyone in my life is, as a result of that shift.

I mean... that is the other thing. Just because you might shift quite dramatically, doesn't have to make that a bad thing. Sometimes that can be pretty awesome to see for the people who love you.

Quote from: Doctorwho? on October 29, 2013, 07:09:06 PM
My last relationship lasted 25 years, before my partner, who may not survive till xmas, developed terminal dementia.

I heard about that. I'm terribly sorry. I can't imagine how rough that must be for you both.

I like pink but it has to be well placed within an outfit so it has a balanced, classy accentuated appeal 

Thanks for all of the responses.



I did end up asking why she thought that way and why she thought i would be some barbie girl. It has been a rough couple of days as basically she said she was worried about being the man in the relationship. Or at least thats what I got from it. She was never on for wearing a skirt as she said.  She wears dresses for family events and such, but shes not comfortable in them for everyday wear. She thinks of herself as not being womanly and i am trying to do what I can to help convince her otherwise. I think she just follows the sterotypes of things and can't see past them.

Honestly I don't know if we will be together when i get the surgery done. She is not sure of alot of things and I am being patient and edging her towards things, but i am getting a bit impatient myself. Hopefully starting the hormones at least wil help me cope. I love her more than anything and her and my girls are my life.

I am surprised to be honest since she has always been into the goth scene and appreciates forms of self-realization. She understands alot about the basics behind what i am doing but at the same time she has alot of misconceptions about what is goingt o happen. I like dresses and corsets and i want my female body that my mind will connect with. She knows I am a bit of a tomboy who rides a motorcycle and has led a difficult life thats made me a bit rough around the edges. I like the softer side to things but i am just not into pink. She just thinks I will change my inside as well as the outside.

I don't know and can't begin to describe what she is thinking.

-Chrissy

P.S.
As far as being the ultimate manly man. She knew I cross-dressed and I have my gothic stuffed animals , and i have the mannerisms of being as she put t a gay man without the stupid pink obsession. I think she just thinks it might be the last straw to make me the 'prom queen' wanna be.

I totally get that. I think I am a bit like your S.O. - not too feminine really and all that. And I also get where she is coming from in terms of worries to be the "man" in a relationship. I have a TS past and also a past as a S.O. of a TS, so I know both LOL. And actually it can be a bit tough if two TS women come together and ech of them wants to be "the woman" in a relationship (both still convinced that a relationship has to have a male and female part) and then what happened with us was a silly race of who can be that and a constatnt fear that one will become the "man" in the relationship. It is quite damaging really and it seems that other women have the same issues. I guess this is because of too much hetero thinking maybe? But even some lesbians have that - femme and butch as a couple and all that. I dont know how to solve that and in relationship sI always wanted to be the femme, even if in daily life I am not that femme. Drove one of my girlfriends nuts because she did not want to be the butch all the time. So I guess either one has to find a good balance and even as a woman with TS background accept to be the part in a relationship that usually is assigned to men in heterosexual relationships (and in intimacy as well, especially in intimacy...). Or one could become hetero, then the roles are clear but of course that means that an existing relationship ends and I must say that this is much more common for TS women than one hears about. Relationships seem to last over transition and a while longer, sometimes they break at SRS, sometimes not long after that. Some survive all of this, but it takes a special woman to really do this - she has to be very open to being bisexual and happy about this as well. I wish you the best and that you have such a woman in your life...