I thought having a choice means their is always another option available. Death is not a choice. It is thrust upon us and we must fight it off constantly. If you really are a trannsexual then you should transition because its the easier option. The other option of not transitioning does lead to discomfort and depression. There are other options at your disposal one of them being suicide sadly. But I dont think people choose where they go in life. I believe in fate.

Quote from: Berliegh on July 19, 2007, 06:57:33 PM

Quote from: Rachael on July 19, 2007, 05:16:55 PM
if were being technical, if someone refuses GRS when it is available, (atainable i should say) then maybe thier dysphoria is less so?

I wouldn't like to judge anyone on that comnment as a lot of GRS operations done through the NHS in the U.K go wrong. One patient I met had to have 14 operations to put the first one right. I have also met others who have suffered with various problems afterwards which are pretty gory so I won't go into detail. I must admit I really want the operation but the NHS hasn't got a very good success rate from the statistics I've seen so far....

What I mean by "not a choice" is what is in one's heart (which BTW I just learned that the Thais consider the heart and mind to be the same thing) that is: the overwhelming need that she or he must transition, if one cannot transition due to health or financial reasons, that is another matter. But yes, for those who do not feel that overwhelming need, my advice is don't transition.

BTW implicit in Rachel's statement is that safe and affordable GRS with an excellent prognosis of success were available...I wouldn't question anyone who balked at a procedure with a poor rate of success.

I don't think anyone is taking transition as merely a trivial choice, so that point is pretty mute.

QuoteSo, you can hide that brick again for future use....I'm hoping to use it on Thundra's head...LOL 

Well, I will be down there within a month, so we'll continue this discussion and see just whatcha are made of girlie-grrrl.  Ever see Braveheart?  I'll bet you couldn't nail me from ten paces, if I was jumping up and down and going, nyah, nyah! And if you did, you better run really fast.

Kristi, I feel for you babe. You are a beautiful woman.  I'm sorry that you cannot proceed at this time with HRT. After I had to stop self-administering, I gained a newfound sense of empathy for people that are denied this basic need. In my book you are a woman regardless of what other people say.

Well, people are saying that this was a choice for me and that was not and I am not like them and blah, blah, blah!  Well, you ARE diffferent from other people. That is what makes you, uniquely you. Nobody has the same biology or mental processes. So, for some people transition is necessary. For others it is not. And some will need to have surgery, while others will not. Since when does a medical procedure or plan of treatment make you what you are or are not? It's pure silliness. A medical procedure or plan of treatment does not make you who or what you are. They are simply a tool in an attempt to make you healthier.

And before anyone picks up the brick that says, "other ducks shall quack for thee," consider this. Definitions change over time. People have often been ostracized because of a medical condition, mental or physiological, and still are in many cases. Just because you walk into a crowd and someone accuses you of being something you are not, does nothing to change who you are. There is nothing wrong with you. If someone is putting upon you, they are being stupid. There are always going to be stupid people. I know gorgeous women right now, natal females, that get "clocked" as transsexual women. It's ludicrous. My point is that if you adjust yourself to meet other people's needs, you will never be done.

If you are happy with yourself, than %&$# everyone else. It's that simple. The world is FULL of stupid people and it will always remain so.

Quote from: melissa90299 on July 18, 2007, 08:54:59 PM
Because it is absolutely essential that the myth that transitioning is a choice be squelched. Thousands of women are forced to pay out if pocket for their transition because of the belief that transitioning is a "choice."

I'll back you up on this, Melissa, because of the politics that discriminate so unfairly due to sheer ignorance and bigotry.

I agree with Thundra that it would be preferable if such politics didn't interfere and people could simply be who they are without arguing over these frickin vexatious definitions. Identity is highly personal and individual.

I am a woman.  It doesnt make any sense to choose to live the life of a man if that isnt what you are.

Quote from: asiangurliee on July 19, 2007, 08:05:09 PM
I don't think anyone is taking transition as merely a trivial choice, so that point is pretty mute.

Everything in life is a choice but there are multiple degrees of choices from the trivial (what to wear, where to eat), to the
more substantial life choices (career, who to marry, where to live, having children--and even at this level there are those who
will argue these aren't necessarily choices since children just happen, people meet soulmates, or are gifted in a particular field),
to the realm where the word "choice" becomes offensive.  People "choose" to have organ transplants but the choice is so
obvious, the need so overwhelming, that we don't talk about people choosing to have organ transplants, or cleft palates
repaired, or skin grafted on severe burns.  Yeah, those are choices but it's just plain dumb to discuss them in that light. 
For the profoundly dysphoric, I think the same standard applies.  Those other procedures are covered by insurance because
reasonable people recognize treatment as vitally necessary.  So it is (or should be) for severe GID.  Great, you want to have a
philosophical discussion about transition being a choice, that's fine, but you might also try an understand why your viewpoint
is offensive to those of us who have transitioned at great personal cost just for the chance to live a reasonably normal life. 

Dawn

Quote from: DawnL on July 19, 2007, 11:37:56 PM

Quote from: asiangurliee on July 19, 2007, 08:05:09 PM
I don't think anyone is taking transition as merely a trivial choice, so that point is pretty mute.

Everything in life is a choice but there are multiple degrees of choices from the trivial (what to wear, where to eat), to the
more substantial life choices (career, who to marry, where to live, having children--and even at this level there are those who
will argue these aren't necessarily choices since children just happen, people meet soulmates, or are gifted in a particular field),
to the realm where the word "choice" becomes offensive.  People "choose" to have organ transplants but the choice is so
obvious, the need so overwhelming, that we don't talk about people choosing to have organ transplants, or cleft palates
repaired, or skin grafted on severe burns.  Yeah, those are choices but it's just plain dumb to discuss them in that light. 
For the profoundly dysphoric, I think the same standard applies.  Those other procedures are covered by insurance because
reasonable people recognize treatment as vitally necessary.  So it is (or should be) for severe GID.  Great, you want to have a
philosophical discussion about transition being a choice, that's fine, but you might also try an understand why your viewpoint
is offensive to those of us who have transitioned at great personal cost just for the chance to live a reasonably normal life. 

Dawn

I am sorry I offended you.

But please be aware who was the person who wanted  to have this discussion about transition being a "choice".  I did not make this topic.

Just as well, I don't think you should separate those who have transitioned, who are transitioning, and who haven't transitioned as if only those who have transitioned have pay a personal cost at a normal life.

I think that all of us have very deep feeling about this issues and most of us are not exactly having this discussion just *for* fun.

If you think I am having an easy life and I am just being philosophical , than you are dead wrong, if you think this is something I enjoy thinking about or talking about, you are dead wrong, and if you think just because someone has "severe GID" or what not are the only people who are hurting the most, I would have to disagree with that.

What do you do with people who might have severe GID but can't transition one way or another? Or those who have GID and they have persistent discomfort with their gender but do not feel that they can transition for whatever reasons?

I think this discussion is kind of weird, and we are all getting really personal here and I will just say one thing, I am not being philosophical just for the heck of it, and I am not here to stir up debate just because I want to piss people off or create troubles.

My feelings are just as important and they are just as offended by some of the things people have said to me on this topic.

At the end of the day, it doesn't really matter if you think transitioning is not really a meaningful choice or not, or if not have SRS does not make someone a transsexual.

If my choice of word offends people, than it was never meant to offend you or to discredit your experiences or feelings.

I am not making a political speech for the Human Rights Campaign, I am not any spokesperson of anything.

I really don't care, as long as I make the right choice for myself and that I choose correctly to be who I am  (there I go with the word again, oh well, I am not here to please anyone or take care of their own feelings or justify their own life experiences)

Last but not least, I am not here to make enemies, so I hope no one hates me too much

Quote from: Pia on July 19, 2007, 11:07:11 PM
I am a woman.  It doesnt make any sense to choose to live the life of a man if that isnt what you are.

uh huh. because giving up my current life and losing my entire family makes sense right? it's amazing how judgemental people are around here. people here seek so much not to be judged and yet all you do is judge judge judge. as if i'm not a really a girl on the inside because i have remained in this male body? give me a freaking break. some of you act as if transitioning is sooooooo easy. for some of us we cannot due to finances, family, or whatnot. Be glad that you can transition but dont you dare tell me what makes sense just because i cant do what you have done.

Transition isn't a choice.  Peeps that view transition this way arent profoundly dysphoric.  Moreover they can choose.  Be aware though, these peeps rely on agendas of their own and invent absurd illnesses to justify their viewpoints.

Not really. Not having "profound" G.I.D that does not induce someone to commit suicide or transition does not mean someone is having an easy life or that they can be ignored or their problems about their gender  are less troubling or less important than someone who has "profound" G.I.D.

There are many personal reasons why one might not be able to transition immediately or if ever, but I can't imagine that the inability to be ever completely happy about one's gender  because they can't or won't transition is a trivial or easy thing to live with, it is actually much harder than a person who has gone through all the treatments and now has a chance at a "normal life" as a post op transsexual.


If transitioning is not a choice for you, and if you had no choice but to transition and do the surgery, consider yourself lucky.

The rest of us are killing ourselves about what we should do or how we can be happy without a clear solution to our gender problems. 

Quote from: Jeannette on July 20, 2007, 12:48:26 AM
Transition isn't a choice.  Peeps that view transition this way arent profoundly dysphoric.  Moreover they can choose.  Be aware though, these peeps rely on agendas of their own and invent absurd illnesses to justify their viewpoints.

whatever. so easy for you to say once you've already gone through it all isn't it?

Quote from: andy24canada on July 20, 2007, 01:30:13 AM
whatever. so easy for you to say once you've already gone through it all isn't it?

For me, it looked WAY harder from the other side before I transitioned.  I won't say it was easy because it wasn't and I'm still not quite sure how I got from there to here.  Looking back, I think my own fears were what were the toughest to overcome.  Until a person does that, it seems like it will be much harder due to so much uncertainty.  That's why people who have already gone through it make it sound easier than it appears to be for you.

Quote from: andy24canada on July 20, 2007, 12:45:34 AM

Quote from: Pia on July 19, 2007, 11:07:11 PM
I am a woman.  It doesnt make any sense to choose to live the life of a man if that isnt what you are.

uh huh. because giving up my current life and losing my entire family makes sense right? it's amazing how judgemental people are around here. people here seek so much not to be judged and yet all you do is judge judge judge. as if i'm not a really a girl on the inside because i have remained in this male body? give me a freaking break. some of you act as if transitioning is sooooooo easy. for some of us we cannot due to finances, family, or whatnot. Be glad that you can transition but dont you dare tell me what makes sense just because i cant do what you have done.

if you wanted it bad enough, youd do it,
heck, i lost my family, and i came out to them knowing full well it could happen.
and isnt all social interaction judgeing?
transition isnt easy, but we do it because we have NO choice. isnt that the point of this thread?

bingo
give the lady a prize

Quote from: morticia on July 20, 2007, 03:11:24 AM
Well, this is my second and last go at it.  The first time was a disaster.
This time, I'm going slower and being more careful about how I do it.
I'm also taking steps to ensure that I can't go back.
I started the moans this past Jan.  I'm past the point of no return now.  Good.  That's the plan.
There's a high probability that I'll lose everything in the process.  But what else can I do?
I would rather lose everything and live under a bridge than to just do nothing and try to pretend it away.
The easy thing is to do nothing and just skate on through life pretending to be the person that the world insists that you be.
The hard thing is to risk it all, to be true to yourself and gain your freedom.

sitting in my hospital bed recovering from GRS and BA while marveling at looking like an aging Amazon Goddess and light years from what I was just three years ago, I too was counting on losing everything, I lost a lot but I gained so much more, it's truly a miracle, ya just gotta believe.

Posted on: July 20, 2007, 03:39:25 AM

---

I think I am going to write a song about this, it not being a choice, risking all you have, then having everything work out.

life is a gamble, weather we transition or not.... getting up in the mornings a gamble, this one just has higher stakes...

exactly...

Quote from: DawnL on July 19, 2007, 11:37:56 PM

Quote from: asiangurliee on July 19, 2007, 08:05:09 PM
I don't think anyone is taking transition as merely a trivial choice, so that point is pretty mute.

Everything in life is a choice but there are multiple degrees of choices from the trivial (what to wear, where to eat), to the
more substantial life choices (career, who to marry, where to live, having children--and even at this level there are those who
will argue these aren't necessarily choices since children just happen, people meet soulmates, or are gifted in a particular field),
to the realm where the word "choice" becomes offensive.  People "choose" to have organ transplants but the choice is so
obvious, the need so overwhelming, that we don't talk about people choosing to have organ transplants, or cleft palates
repaired, or skin grafted on severe burns.  Yeah, those are choices but it's just plain dumb to discuss them in that light. 
For the profoundly dysphoric, I think the same standard applies.  Those other procedures are covered by insurance because
reasonable people recognize treatment as vitally necessary.  So it is (or should be) for severe GID.  Great, you want to have a
philosophical discussion about transition being a choice, that's fine, but you might also try an understand why your viewpoint
is offensive to those of us who have transitioned at great personal cost just for the chance to live a reasonably normal life. 

Dawn

There you are riot grrrrrrl.    I was hoping you'd post under this thread. 

tink

Quote from: andy24canada on July 20, 2007, 12:45:34 AM
it's amazing how judgemental people are around here. people here seek so much not to be judged and yet all you do is judge judge judge. .......... Be glad that you can transition but dont you dare tell me what makes sense just because i cant do what you have done.

Well said, Andy!  Thanks.

Why do we think everybody has to conform to our own experience of they are not valid?  This does not come from the standards but from an inability to recognize someone else's life experiences are unique.  Hypocritical to the nth degree.

Kristi (who obviously "invented absurd illnesses to justify (my) viewpoints")