Re: this passage in 1 Corinthians 13:

    For we know in part, and we prophesy in part. But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away. When I was a child, I spoke as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things. For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.

Can you know, *as you are known by the other*? face to face, on equal footing? Transparently?

Ghost in the shell?
it means basically can you see yourself as others see you? and can you see yourself as a shadow or as who you are? solidly or transparently?
am I right?
donno if I am but here's my response/answer somewhat...
I guess I am able to but not vividly since I have always been able to tell when I was doing something stupid, like a "pang" would go off and I would semi-unconsciously see my self do something, and mark that as an "avoid doing later"
but I cannot see myself as others see me vividly, unless I have a hint of sorts, otherwise I have a vague idea.
I apologize if I got it completely wrong...I haven't discussed philosophy before

that's it... I think, maybe in moments we see through it, illuminating moments, and the trick is to extend such moments, which is a hard one to do.

I think i know how others see me.

I don't see myself as others see me.

Others say nice things to me and give me compliments.

I cannot see what they see. I believe them, though.


I'm not sure I understand the question 

Well, is 'me' being seen strictly a surface or set of surfaces? On that level, all we can see is obscured by where our eyes are set in our head... then there is the mirror, which has one less spacial dimension than what the other sees. So already we are at a disadvantage of sorts.

Is there a self that isn't usually projected in surfaces?

How much of what the other sees is to some extent self-reflecting, is what I think I mean by equal footing.

Have you ever had a shocking sort of sudden, revelatory glimpse of your own self, as if the eyeballs were kinda sorta turned inside out? I mean outside in, actually.

n

Quote from: None of the Above on July 20, 2007, 09:21:25 AM
that's it... I think, maybe in moments we see through it, illuminating moments, and the trick is to extend such moments, which is a hard one to do.

It is hard thing to do, yes but should we succeed in extending the moment then the fruits of out labor will be that much more extended.

Quote from: None of the Above on July 20, 2007, 10:14:44 AM

Have you ever had a shocking sort of sudden, revelatory glimpse of your own self, as if the eyeballs were kinda sorta turned inside out? I mean outside in, actually.
n

No.
and it makes me want to cry.

well, if it did happen, and the result was that you just wanted to turn tail and run, maybe you betta off not knowing. 

I like that little inscrutable smiley, even if it doesn't follow.

Crazy.

I like these guys -  &  & 

Imagine each one of them following you around everywhere looking like that no matter what is said or done.

what size are they when they follow? As it is, I have something quite similiar buzzing in concentric circles round my head, and it's not so funny anymore.

They are the size of basketballs.

The one with the tongue sometimes makes a sound of deflation.

mine are much smaller. fat spherical bees, like

do yours stay behind you, or do they try to contend with your movements? that would get on my nerves something awful. my dudes are in some kind of orbit, which seems well-designed enough...

I'm afraid to just go and smoosh them, could be catastrophic. if I could get up the density to warp their space, maybe I could get them to crash into each other...

I treat mine as equals.  Sometimes they are beside me, or in front of me, or they are back a little bit. Oddly, they stay together.  Old cryiey  and tonguey  kind of fear old maddy  . For some time, I have suspected they may be plotting something quite dire, however, it turns out they were just kissing.

I now suspect that I am these dudes' god or some deal, that I could just wipe 'em out any time, and no worries.

perception is unique to each individual, because of the experience of life stored as a memory with which we see and compare , not only ourselves, but everything around us.

Hi Katia

see what happens when you're absent? the whole thing goes to hell in a handbasket.

N

Quote from: None of the Above on July 21, 2007, 10:51:20 AM
Hi Katia

see what happens when you're absent? the whole thing goes to hell in a handbasket.

N

I know.  We (NOTA & me) was trying to keep things honest here, but I suspect we're incompetent.

Posted on: July 21, 2007, 10:55:35 AM

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Quote from: Katia on July 21, 2007, 10:22:34 AM
perception is unique to each individual, because of the experience of life stored as a memory with which we see and compare , not only ourselves, but everything around us.

   True.  Do you know what is crazy about that?

We can never truly share our perceptions with others.   

We can never bring everyone around to a truly common ground.   

Signed,

Quote from: None of the Above on July 19, 2007, 04:17:01 PM
Re: this passage in 1 Corinthians 13:

For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.

i love how this is worded. but, like many of the things written in that book, which speaks so much of things beyond the scope of normal consciousness, it may or may not be true, empirically, but still may be very effective on a suggestive level.

how could it be true? there is often at least one aspect of a person's personality that they do not even have a clue about, but others see it and know it.

one can never know oneself completely, in every respect. which, i believe, is a good thing. such a deep knowledge might be...difficult. i never ask people to tell me something about myself that they know but i don't. what if they said, "did you know you always have a sadness in your face, even when you're smiling?"

Quote from: Ell on July 21, 2007, 11:11:38 AM

Quote from: None of the Above on July 19, 2007, 04:17:01 PM
Re: this passage in 1 Corinthians 13:

For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.

one can never know oneself completely, in every respect. which, i believe, is a good thing. such a deep knowledge might be...difficult. i never ask people to tell me something about myself that they know but i don't. what if they said, "did you know you always have a sadness in your face, even when you're smiling?"

They do say that, and it comes as no suprise to me.

I believe, from experience (that you may not like to characterize as empirical, but that opens a can of worms that indicates another topic) that in a flash, at least, total self-knowledge is available.

---

My thought is that total self-knowledge means a form of death [see: bardo thodol; 2) The chikhai bardo features the experience of the "clear light of reality", or at least the nearest approximation to it of which one is spiritually capable.]...

Quote from: None of the Above on July 21, 2007, 12:02:18 PM
in a flash, at least, total self-knowledge is available.

by in a flash do you mean the knowledge suddenly ignites, and continues, like a star, or that it startles the consciousness for one brief moment and then is gone?

and, can you please describe what the total self-knowledge is mostly about?

my difficulty with this is that there are probably millions of things that define you as an individual, from unique genetic code, to unique brain structure, unique experiences, etc., etc., etc.  i couldn't even tell you with certainty, one aspect of what my dreams mean.