Quote from: Akira21 ♡♡♡ on November 03, 2013, 10:26:28 AM
You said "If you really were okay with being gay you wouldn't be considering transitioning." Maybe I am reading this wrong, but to me that says that if one were comfortable with ones sexuality then there would be no reason to do this.

My point is that it is quite possible that ones gayness or not doesn't bother someone and that they still choose to transition. For people who are attracted to the same gender that they designated at birth and would be labelled as gay if they did not transition, transition is not always to 'not-be-gay'. If someone is 'gay' in the gender they are transitioning from, the reason to transition should not be for this reason at all.

I was designated male at birth, I like guys. I was OK with that and the gay label did not bother me. Still, I transitioned because my gender is separate. 

Suggesting that selecting one's sexuality is a valid reason to change gender, and your statement, at least to me, suggests that this is the only reason one would want to do this, is silly. Try imagining anyone saying that they didn't want to change gender but they did so only because they wanted to be gay :-)

To me you have a feminine psyche. I find it to be masculine and macho to have a problem being associated with gay men.
I take a certain pride in gay people and I feel that I am one of them too.

The real problem I have with being trans is being associated with straight macho men that become woman.
Its just to far apart from my worldview. I cannot reconcile my situation and way of being with theirs.

With gay men? No problem. And often they are very kind and understandig towards me.

Quote from: Sibila on November 01, 2013, 08:56:34 AM
I dont understand a lot of transwoman.

When you as a transwoman like woman then that means your gay!

Also... it is a COMPLIMENT when they perceive you as gay because the gay stereotype is naturally feminine.
What would you want then? To be compared to tough firefighters, army generals, pilots and womanizers?

Its exactly these last things that completely deny that one is a woman from birth.
Because it makes no sense at all.
No one in their right mind is able to understand that.

Also, not wanting to be compared to gay men... betrays a homophobic tendency which is not at all feminine.
In fact, its very straight and masculine and macho.

I for one, do not want to be compared to such transwoman anymore. For obvious reasons.
They make my life and the prejedice harder then it already is.

Perhaps I'm misinterpreting you, so forgive me if my post isn't relevant. There is nothing wrong with being gay, and I fully embrace the lgbt community; however, there are many differences between gay men and trans women.  The fact is that no cis woman wants to be seen as a gay man.  So, why should a trans woman?  I love our gay brothers, but they are men and that is simply something I can't identify as.  While there are some feminine men, they are still guys.  And it's important to note that there are many manly gay men and masculine trans girls.  I think the stereotype of trans women just being very very gay and gay guys being fem does a disservice to both communities.  While we may have some similarities and often fight the same fights, it's okay to note our differences.  It isn't homophobic to hope that we are viewed different from a separate group.  At the end of the day, we can fight together in the lgbt community and support one another while recognizing our differences.   Again, I may have misinterpreted your original statement, so I'm sorry if you didn't intend to say anything contrary to my post.

Quote from: learningtolive on November 03, 2013, 02:57:18 PM
Perhaps I'm misinterpreting you, so forgive me if my post isn't relevant. There is nothing wrong with being gay, and I fully embrace the lgbt community; however, there are many differences between gay men and trans women.  The fact is that no cis woman wants to be seen as a gay man.  So, why should a trans woman?  I love our gay brothers, but they are men and that is simply something I can't identify as.  While there are some feminine men, they are still guys.  And it's important to note that there are many manly gay men and masculine trans girls.  I think the stereotype of trans women just being very very gay and gay guys being fem does a disservice to both communities.  While we may have some similarities and often fight the same fights, it's okay to note our differences.  It isn't homophobic to hope that we are viewed different from a separate group.  At the end of the day, we can fight together in the lgbt community and support one another while recognizing our differences.   Again, I may have misinterpreted your original statement, so I'm sorry if you didn't intend to say anything contrary to my post.

I fully agree with LTL on this point. There are many gay men who are totally turned off by anything remotely feminine. Could they be considered macho? I dunno... depends on Your definition of macho, perhaps. Then, again, we have people like Kristen Beck and many many others. Are they masculine transwomen? I dunno, I have never met them in person. But I pretty much suspect that it takes a lot to become a Navy Seal... Nevertheless, Kristen Beck is now where she is (where most of us from this board are), despite all of her efforts and coping mechanisms. Is she then somehow "less trans" than let's say Kim Petras? Purely rhetoric question

I used to be very homophobic person - partially because when I was very young, I was told that gay people are those who are pretending to be women. As I could not express my feelings then, it all led to deep internalised shame about myself being "gay" and hating it. Later, I read what homosexuality really is about and did not identify with it, but confusion and shame endured, still. So, did I have a masculine psyche back in those days? I seriously doubt, because I never was macho and I never was alpha male (I have no idea how somebody becomes to be one...) - yet, I was perceived as very masculine person (in many senses, not only the worst things usually associated with males) - but internally, I never was male. So, because I used to be homophobic - I am now not trans enough? Should I reconsider my transitioning?   And what about those transwomen who stay true to females afterwards and identify themselves as lesbians?

Quote from: ♡ Emily ♡ on November 03, 2013, 04:53:05 PM
I used to be very homophobic person - partially because when I was very young, I was told that gay people are those who are pretending to be women. As I could not express my feelings then, it all led to deep internalised shame about myself being "gay" and hating it. Later, I read what homosexuality really is about and did not identify with it, but confusion and shame endured, still. So, did I have a masculine psyche back in those days? I seriously doubt, because I never was macho and I never was alpha male (I have no idea how somebody becomes to be one...) - yet, I was perceived as very masculine person (in many senses, not only the worst things usually associated with males) - but internally, I never was male. So, because I used to be homophobic - I am now not trans enough? Should I reconsider my transitioning?   And what about those transwomen who stay true to females afterwards and identify themselves as lesbians?

This is partly why I'm confused about my sexuality now (vice my gender... which has never been so clear to me). I wasn't completely homophobic, but I did reject any possible homosexuality or femininity in myself (& not too well on the latter). I certainly didn't support either - in my tainted mind that would point me out as gay or trans... many of us overcompensate. I ate Chick Fil A on purpose a time or two (gasp... yes I'm that much of a rebel... and not much further, either LOL).

Now I'm not a complete advocate on my public accounts, but I'm much, much more of one (liking things on Facebook I would never have associated with before). On my private / hidden accounts (@KabitTarah on twitter, especially) I am more public about my thoughts and agendas.

Well, I can't relate to the homophobia, but I do understand where you are coming from.  Many people have labelled me as gay throughout my life and having been raised in a Catholic family, that wasn't a good thing.  I was ashamed of myself because I liked men and wanted to be a girl.  At that point in my life, I would have said I was a gay kid who desperately wished to be a female and occasionally cross dressed.  Still, I never quite felt gay despite the fact that I was only interested in guys and wanted to be a girl.  The disconnect didn't make sense at the time because I was too young to understand what being trans meant nor did I have access to the internet having lived in a very controlled home.  I knew that trans people existed but I thought they were all like Rupaul which is very different from who I am.  So, I did have an internal sense of self hatred for being different and having feelings that weren't "normal", yet I never had a problem with gay people.  I just felt that I shouldn't like guys even though it was okay for others to do so.  It felt like I was a different case and that I was different from them.  After trying to be a "gay guy" around 18 years old and attempting to rid myself of my trans thoughts by being something else, I realized why I was different and came to understand that being gay is something very separate from being trans.  That's why I can totally understand the desire to be viewed differently even though there is no homophobia behind it.  I love gay people and have gay friends.  They're awesome people and worthy of our respect and support.  I'm just not that.  Oddly enough, my mom often begs me to just be a gay guy, lol.  Who would ever think a mother would say such a thing?  I guess the times are changing, lol.   

Well, I never had any issues with gay people . But still, I was homophobic. I used to have several professors, who were gay, I knew about some of my aquaintances who were suspected to be gay - but I did not care much whether it was true or not.
But I once was molested by gay male in public bus when I was a teen - and I had an issue with that and I hated that person... but only him and other gay males like him, who just walk around and grope boys in buses... I guess I still hate them... And I pretty much hated if someone touched me or broke my boundaries for years afterwards.
I was also not very comfortable with over-expressive and effeminate types, because they always felt somehow unnatural to me. And yes, I really had issues if people considered me to be gay (and some of them did, despite all my efforts to conceal my deep trans issues). So I guess, that was homophobia for me But, having accepted myself, I pretty much can accept anyone else now (unless the person is doing something he could be charged with... )

I hope everyone thinks I'm gay!  Until the day my boy-mode (IE, my only mode) fails, I'm going to become more and more visibly twinkish.  Colorful shirts, rainbow plastic bands, maybe even an E necklace...it's going to be wonderful!  I don't really have many friends on campus, so maybe becoming more visible will help me find a community.

I was pretty homophobic when I was younger, but I think that's just a byproduct from living with conservative families.  I vaguely remember my first "romantic" thoughts at six-ish years old being about boys from my class.  Then I "grew out of it," learned that it was "wrong," and grew back into it as my teenage years wound down.  Now, I have a pretty hard time daydreaming about heterosexual relationships.  If I think about myself as a boy, I want to be with other guys.  If I imagine myself as a girl, other girls.  I'm not sure if that makes me bisexual or just plain gay    I always say pansexual because it's an easier concept to explain.

Growing up, I was always very feminine and related to girls more than boys. I was also a geeky kid as well. My mother believed I was gay since I also didn't date in high school, but had a lot of female friends and most of my friends were geeks like me and in theater/television. (My high school had a cable public access station.) My father was always trying to make me man up and wanted me to go into the military to make a man out of me. He refused to put me in college unless I went in the military. Fortunately my parents divorced and my mother remarried when I was 15. My step-father believed I should be myself and paid my way through college. It never bothered him that I was feminine in nature. (He was also born and raised in Manhattan.)

When I met my wife, my mother was against our marriage saying there was something not right about her, but in reality it was me not being my true self that she was sensing. (She later admitted this after I came out to her.) My mother was right in the long run, I was gay, a lesbian. When I came out to her after talking a while she had said: "Wow what a day, the hardest news was to find out my son is transgender, the easiest part is that she is a lesbian." She has been very supportive and I could ask for better support, even though she currently lives 1300 miles away.

Quote from: Sibila on November 01, 2013, 08:56:34 AM
I dont understand a lot of transwoman.

When you as a transwoman like woman then that means your gay!

Also... it is a COMPLIMENT when they perceive you as gay because the gay stereotype is naturally feminine.
What would you want then? To be compared to tough firefighters, army generals, pilots and womanizers?

Its exactly these last things that completely deny that one is a woman from birth.
Because it makes no sense at all.
No one in their right mind is able to understand that.

Also, not wanting to be compared to gay men... betrays a homophobic tendency which is not at all feminine.
In fact, its very straight and masculine and macho.

I for one, do not want to be compared to such transwoman anymore. For obvious reasons.
They make my life and the prejedice harder then it already is.

The reason many trans women don't like to be compared to gay men isn't because those people are gay, it's because those people are men.

Men.
As in gay men.
Not women.
As in trans women.

It's a blatant denial of one's womanhood to be called a man of any type -- including a gay man. It's further ignorant to equate homosexuality with femininity, as not all gay men are feminized. Many gay men are very masculine.

When I am seen as a gay man by people who know about me, I feel offended (or taxed/frustrated, if the person is simply being naive) not only for myself, but for gay men. It is a clear misinterpretation of the following terms: man, woman, gay, straight, sexuality, gender.

Why is it okay for my core person to be misinterpreted so long as the misinterpretation is something I like and support? It's not. I'm me, not someone else. I would very much like to be seen as myself. I grew up thinking I was a gay man. I'm over anyone thinking I'm gay, it doesn't make me feel insecure. I'm more than okay with people acknowledging the fact I'm effeminate. I'm more than okay with people acknowledging that I like men. Heck, I'd even be okay with someone acknowledging me as a lesbian because at least they'd be half-right (I'm a woman, but I do not like women). I am not okay with being acknowledged as a gay man because I am not a man, and although I do like men, I am again not a man and therefore cannot be a man who likes men (gay).

It's simply a matter of apples wanting to be apples.

You dont understand what I am saying.

I do not want to be seen as a man, in any form... gay or not.

But sadly from my experience, that DOES happen, ocassionally...

(for MANY people, when you say you are trans, they think of you as a male who wanted to be female. NOT as a born female who
needed to be herself)

And WHEN that happens....
I rather am compared to gay men then transwoman that were straight men and happy.

From childhood I have sufferend inmensly because I was born in the wrong body and could not live the male gender role.
I was teased and bullied by the masculine boys... who felt great being boys....They have always made me feel a failure and ugly.

Now that I am transitioned I see that a great number of these previously homophobic masculine (and happy to be a man) straight
guys want to become woman. And they want to regard me as one of them. Which they are not, nor will they ever be.

I find it offensive, an insult and just downright painfull to be compared to those transwoman. Also by non transpeople. It hurts
me a lot.

Its like you are an auswitch survivor hearing another "survivor"  say that is was a piece of cake (while it is clear that he she was never even there). And that they could adapt better, adapt more. Or worse even: when they start to lie and say that I have an advantage to them....because I did not supress my femininity (which I did).
Those are the transwoman that lie to themselves and lie to others AND me. Betrayel.

The type that says that since they took hormones, they are worse drivers (just like woman).

I am rather compared to feminine gay man, that also, like me, took the beating, and had to struggle to survive their childhood and themselves.

Also I have been bullied about being gay and a girl so many times in my life, that being homophobic would mean that I would be just like those people...


A transwoman that is homophobic I will NEVER be able to accept as one of my kind.

Call me heterophobic. And hetero(lesbian) transphobic. (and with reason!)

That's really confusing....to me at least.

Quote from: <3 on November 04, 2013, 10:29:31 AM
That's really confusing....to me at least.

Thanks for trying to understand though.

Except for just ONE transfriend that I have got, while I met hundreds of them and have been online for 8 years...there is almost no one I can relate to. No one I can talk to about girl issues or womanhood issues....

They simple do not understand what I am talking about. Ciswoman do!!!!! Those are the only ones I can turn to for that stuff!

Why can't I with transwoman? Why are they not like woman???

It REALLY dissapoints me.

Quote from: Sibila on November 04, 2013, 10:25:42 AM
You dont understand what I am saying.

I do not want to be seen as a man, in any form... gay or not.

But sadly from my experience, that DOES happen, ocassionally...

And WHEN that happens....
I rather am compared to gay men then transwoman that were straight and happy.

From childhood I have sufferend inmensly because I was born in the wrong body and could not live the male gender role.
I was teased and bullied by the masculine boys... who felt great being boys....They have always made me feel a failure and ugly.

Now that I am transitioned I see that a great number of these previously homophobic masculine (and happy to be a man) straight
guys want to become woman. And they want to regard me as one of them. Which they are not, nor will they ever be.

I find it offensive, an insult and just downright painfull to be compared to those transwoman. Also by non transpeople. It hurts
me a lot.

Its like you are an auswitch surviver hearing another person say that is was a piece of cake. And that they could adapt better, adapt more. Or worse even: when they start to lie and say that I have an advantage to them....because I did not repress my femininity (which I did).
Those are the transwoman that lie to themselves and lie to others AND me. Betrayel.

The type that says that since they took hormones, they are worse drivers (just like woman).

I am rather compared to feminine gay man, that also, like me, took the beating, and had to struggle to survive their childhood and themselves.

Also I have been bullied about being gay and a girl so many times in my life, that being homophobic would mean that I would be just like those people...


A transwoman that is homophobic I will NEVER be able to accept as one of my kind.

I get what your saying I'm kinda similar to you and I was picked on a lot by the boys and some girls when I was growing up. But just because someone seems to be happy as a male on the outside doesn't necessarily mean they were happy as men. And I bet most of their homophobia was based on the fear they might be gay themselves. Everybody handles this differently and some learn to cope easier than others and that doesn't make them any less trans than you or I.

Quote from: Heather on November 04, 2013, 10:44:56 AM
I get what your saying I'm kinda similar to you and I was picked on a lot by the boys and some girls when I was growing up. But just because someone seems to be happy as a male on the outside doesn't necessarily mean they were happy as men. And I bet most of their homophobia was based on the fear they might be gay themselves. Everybody handles this differently and some learn to cope easier than others and that doesn't make them any less trans than you or I.

IT DOES because you CANNOT fake MASCULINITY! I was VERY creative and always wanted to become an actor. Everyone acknowledged my talent as a kid. So why did I not succeed in pretending to be a boy? Why did I not cope.

And why did they cope??? They were MASCULINE and AUTHENTIC MALES ! Even if they want to be woman. That does not make you a woman!
Most woman do not even want to be woman and look at us with suprise.

I simply cannot and do not believe them... I simply cant. I know that that might hurt others... but it is the truth though.

Quote from: Sibila on November 04, 2013, 10:41:56 AM
Except for just ONE transfriend that I have got, while I met hundreds of them and have been online for 8 years...there is almost no one I can relate to. No one I can talk to about girl issues or womanhood issues....

They simple do not understand what I am talking about. Ciswoman do!!!!! Those are the only ones I can turn to for that stuff!

Why can't I with transwoman? Why are they not like woman???

It REALLY dissapoints me.

I really do get what your saying I feel like I can't relate to a lot of transwomen either. When I first started transitioning I thought I would find others like me who knew from an early age who they were and never really established a male personality. But I was wrong and it actually scared me because I felt so different from the others I met. But I realized just because I couldn't relate to them didn't make me any more or less valid than them. Now I do have a question why is it so important for you to fit in with transwomen if you have more in common with ciswomen?

Quote from: Sibila on November 04, 2013, 10:46:53 AM
IT DOES because you CANNOT fake MASCULINITY! I was VERY creative and always wanted to become an actor. Everyone acknowledged my talent as a kid. So why did I not succeed in pretending to be a boy? Why did I not cope.

And why did they cope??? They were MASCULINE and AUTHENTIC MALES ! Even if they want to be woman. That does not make you a woman!
Most woman do not even want to be woman and look at us with suprise.

I simply cannot and do not believe them... I simply cant. I know that that might hurt others... but it is the truth though.

Yeah... that's just offensive to me.

Congratulations at always knowing who you were and never having been forced in the closet because of it. Some of us weren't so lucky. I came out at 15... and supressed it until I was 35. I tried my best (which admittedly wasn't all that great) to be male and failed.

Your experience does not in any way lessen mine, but your words do.

Quote from: Sibila on November 04, 2013, 10:46:53 AM
IT DOES because you CANNOT fake MASCULINITY! I was VERY creative and always wanted to become an actor. Everyone acknowledged my talent as a kid. So why did I not succeed in pretending to be a boy? Why did I not cope.

And why did they cope??? They were MASCULINE and AUTHENTIC MALES ! Even if they want to be woman. That does not make you a woman!
Most woman do not even want to be woman and look at us with suprise.

I simply cannot and do not believe them... I simply cant. I know that that might hurt others... but it is the truth though.

What makes you think your an authentic woman? Your displaying an ego in your posts that you are somehow better than everyone else which is a very masculine trait.

I'm pretty sure I have the label now, meh, I move out of the men's dorm tomorrow onto a coed floor in hope of better treatment.

Quote from: Heather on November 04, 2013, 10:57:11 AM
I really do get what your saying I feel like I can't relate to a lot of transwomen either. When I first started transitioning I thought I would find others like me who knew from an early age who they were and never really established a male personality. But I was wrong and it actually scared me because I felt so different from the others I met. But I realized just because I couldn't relate to them didn't make me any more or less valid than them. Now I do have a question why is it so important for you to fit in with transwomen if you have more in common with ciswomen?

Because I am compared to them.
Mind you ..i do not feel better then anyone. Nor do I even like being female...i have no use trying to prove I am MORE female, while I do not even want to be one.

Thats also the pain I go through every day...that I will never truely be regarded female and almost dying from insecurity and being hurt by men...trouble loving my body...trouble finding myself attractive...list goes on...

Most transwoman are for more self assured then I am and far less humble.
They are also not unhappy about being trans in the same way I am.