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Do you think we are treated badly because of who we are?

Started by Kiwi4Eva, October 30, 2013, 07:04:49 PM

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Amira

Quote from: Shaina on November 05, 2013, 04:12:40 PM
I'm in a Pan-African student group at my school and I've heard similar things from my Caribbean and Afro-Latino friends. I think it may be because their family's communities were so religious. Do you find that to be the case with your family?

Still, I find intolerance and acceptance can be found everywhere in varying degrees.
Yes religion is a part but another major factor is the Black culture, where masculinity is placed on a higher pedestal and anyone that does not match the expectation is a target. There is limited diversity here and it is very small and everyone knows each other or heard about someone. I just got in an argument with my parents for hiding my things. They act like they accept me and then it turned out to be a problem. I am literally all on my own with this transition it's frustrating but there is no turning back for me. My friend turned me away when i asked to live with him and I would help pay half the rent. I don't blame him I guess he would be shunned for being around me still. And most people over here listen to Jamaican music that is very homophobic and talks about killing Gays! I am not gay but that is all they see it as. So it is ingrained strongly in the culture.  Not taking away from other people problems, I can only talk about my experience.
You never know how strong you are until being strong is the only choice you have.
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Janae


In a professional setting such as going for medical services, no. I'm fortunate that the place I go to serves the LGBT community as well as the hetro one. The staff have been put through a very good sensitivity training and have always been respectful of trans people. They have no problem using correct pronouns and preferred names. I've been going to the same place for over 10 yrs. They also conduct surveys to insure that the proper care and respect is given. I've had 3 different doctors since that time and they've always been helpful and respectful. I feel sorry for anyone who has to put up with disrespect in any setting especially a medical one. I feel it's our job to correct people where necessary. It may be a pain but if we don't who will??


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Kiwi4Eva

Quote from: Janae on November 06, 2013, 02:14:44 AM
I It may be a pain but if we don't who will??

I have a friend who seems to enjoy "outing herself".  She's 9 years older than me and has had a sex-change.  I'm bigger than her (build wise) but I would look totally feminine compared to her and carry myself like a female (I wouldn't know how to be like a man) on the other hand she enjoys being "sprung".

I suppose we can't expect total acceptance if some of us have the desire to seek attention like this.  It's self destructive and harms all of us who want to be accepted as females.

I can't see total acceptance occurring in my life-time, as long as we are all so different.
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KabitTarah

Quote from: Kiwi4Eva on November 06, 2013, 03:15:27 AM
I have a friend who seems to enjoy "outing herself".  She's 9 years older than me and has had a sex-change.  I'm bigger than her (build wise) but I would look totally feminine compared to her and carry myself like a female (I wouldn't know how to be like a man) on the other hand she enjoys being "sprung".

I suppose we can't expect total acceptance if some of us have the desire to seek attention like this.  It's self destructive and harms all of us who want to be accepted as females.

I can't see total acceptance occurring in my life-time, as long as we are all so different.

I don't know the situation, but I can't see being stealth. I don't know if I'll be all that feminine looking or acting (more than I already am, that is) but I think it's unfair to expect someone to act a certain way just because people otherwise won't accept them.

I can't see total acceptance either (the LGB side don't have it yet). I don't think we're looking for total acceptance anytime soon. I would like to see the opportunity to be myself, with as many people knowing or figuring it out, without significant risk of harm (physical, occupational, or psychological).

I think we're a long way off from even having most of the population tolerate us, but by saying you must be stealth for that to happen is counterproductive. I will not have the option of being stealth at work, and it's a major fear that, while I can't lose my job because of it I'll be driven away, even though these people have had 8 years of seeing how well I work. That's what I want to have, what I deserve, and what I'll fight for. (I don't have an easy option of moving away - my family and children will likely remain here).
~ Tarah ~

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Tessa James

Quote from: Kiwi4Eva on November 06, 2013, 03:15:27 AM
I have a friend who seems to enjoy "outing herself".  She's 9 years older than me and has had a sex-change.  I'm bigger than her (build wise) but I would look totally feminine compared to her and carry myself like a female (I wouldn't know how to be like a man) on the other hand she enjoys being "sprung".

I suppose we can't expect total acceptance if some of us have the desire to seek attention like this.  It's self destructive and harms all of us who want to be accepted as females.

I can't see total acceptance occurring in my life-time, as long as we are all so different.

Yes, our very personal perspectives, mannerisms and pass-ability are so nicely unique and we can hopefully celebrate our individuality and diversity.  Some of us are already public figures who are transitioning in public.   That means I don't pass all the time and I likely do get "attention" for looking different or not having a totally feminine look.  I am proud of who I am and would not ask any one to deny themselves or hide.  In fact I see my "look" as an opportunity to encourage diversity, acceptance and tolerance for those who look different.  There are plenty of ciswomen and transwomen who may appear or act kinda butch and that is part of this beautiful mosaic of human life.  Total acceptance IMHO begins with accepting ourselves.
Open, out and evolving queer trans person forever with HRT support since March 13, 2013
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Shaina

I recently had a friend of mine-a trans woman-start avoiding me. I thought I'd done something to offend her but she says I'm "too cis" and that she doesn't pass while she's with me.

I know that's not the same as a friend outting themselves around you but sometimes people don't realize how they make friends feel by being who they are.  :icon_sadblinky:
I was a child and she was a child   
    In this kingdom by the sea:   
But we loved with a love that was more than love—
    I and my Annabel Lee
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stephaniec

Quote from: Cindy on October 31, 2013, 02:21:00 AM
It is the ANZAC spirit, those men and woman (and transgender soldiers because there would have been) fought for truth. They fought and died for us. We do the same.
I think I can learn to love this site
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stephaniec

Quote from: Kiwi4Eva on October 31, 2013, 01:54:55 AM
I like your attitude Cindy.  It's very similar to mine.  I'm told I have a strong "social justice" streak.
Susan's makes me realize how many and varied the problems are and no one has the right to hurt or harm any of us.  :)
I I think personally these two woman are totally what I'd like to be like . It's so nice to find a place like Susan's to discuss issues that affect us.
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stephaniec

Quote from: Kiwi4Eva on October 30, 2013, 07:04:49 PM
In my experience we are often treated with less dignity and respect by others.

I was referred to as Mr on my account with the hotel in Chonburi (my passport says female - and they had a copy of it)

I was referred to as "he" when I was at Yeson.

My medical certificate (from Yeson) calls me both a he and then a she in the same sentence.

These are examples of professional treatment.

I now choose to live without human companionship for most of the time preferring the love of my animals.
yea, this pretty much sums it up for me too
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stephaniec

Quote from: Chaos on October 30, 2013, 07:51:20 PM
As a FtM i would say yes,we are without a doubt treated differently.Its hard though ill admit when your around so many narrow minded people (using the wrong name and so on) to just *not* do it because of an image thats been projected for so long.Even i slipped a few times while speaking of someone i knew nothing about and those i was speaking to,were constantly disrespecting the person.So for *me* it was a mix of confusion and lack of personal knowlege on the person but i made sure to stay on track and continue to defend them.I think we all need to surround ourselves with people who know and love us,who dont think or feel like the rest of society.it makes life worth living and transition much easier.
sounds like a good idea
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stephaniec

Quote from: stephaniec on December 23, 2013, 01:48:44 PM
sounds like a good idea
I also must say I've gone out quite a lot long before transitioning and never encountered any thing in the slightest that was negative . There are a whole lot of good people out there.
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Anatta

Quote from: Kiwi4Eva on October 30, 2013, 07:04:49 PM
In my experience we are often treated with less dignity and respect by others.

I was referred to as Mr on my account with the hotel in Chonburi (my passport says female - and they had a copy of it)

I was referred to as "he" when I was at Yeson.

My medical certificate (from Yeson) calls me both a he and then a she in the same sentence.

These are examples of professional treatment.

I now choose to live without human companionship for most of the time preferring the love of my animals.

Kia Ora K,

This might help to explain the confusion...It's possible its a common occurrence when translating from Korean into English.

http://www.surasplace.com/index.php/culture/158-no-he-she-in-korean.html

Metta Zenda :)
"The most essential method which includes all other methods is beholding the mind. The mind is the root from which all things grow. If you can understand the mind, everything else is included !"   :icon_yes:
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boddi

You have to ask?  This is surely true, there is no ''think'' about it.  See my post, here, which is basically saying just this.  We are not human, apparently, just freaks: https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,156415.0.html
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Tori

A few things that have been said in this thread ring true.

If someone treats you poorly because you are trans, that speaks volumes about them. It does not however, mean they are a bad person. They simply may not know the pronoun rules. I remember when I first joined this community, I accidentally stepped on a bunch of verbal land mines, and I am trans.

Also, if you are convinced in who you are, people tend to buy it. If you are not convinced, people can tell. This goes for being cis, trans or stealth. This is such a simple concept and yet complicated to explain without using an analogy or two. Here goes...

Suspension of disbelief: When you watch television or a movie, you know it is not real, but you tell yourself that you are going to put that aside and go along for the ride. The more convincing your entertainment is, the easier it is to keep your disbelief suspended. Often enough bad writing or acting gets in the way and takes the audience out, it can ruin the experience. Sometimes, the experience is so compelling, you can overlook the flaws. It took me many years to realize the bit players in the Star Wars Trilogy for the most part, really sucked. When I first saw the films, the experience suspended my disbelief, later I was more able to see the faults.

Suspension of disbelief works the opposite way, as have been described earlier in this thread. You can choose to be the Mamma Bear or the Predator. If you convince yourself, others will follow with a remarkable success rate. Again, this works for cis, trans, stealth and anything in between.

A timid person is far more likely to be victimized. This is a sad fact of animal nature. The sick and the weak get eaten.

When I moved to NYC, for the first week, I couldn't walk a block without someone asking me for change or telling me a sob story so I would pay their bus fare back to Long Island... etc. I was a magnet. I asked myself what I was doing wrong. Well, for starters I was dressed nice but not too nice, and I was gawking at every landmark I stumbled across. My behavior screamed gullible tourist. I started dressing down and walking with a purpose, using my periphery to observe the world around me. Within a month, I could go anywhere with 95% fewer interruptions, and when I was interrupted it was often people trying to sell me weed or other drugs, which was annoying but a sign I was fitting in. People saw me as a New Yorker because I presented them with a convincing New Yorker.

So, when I said earlier in my post, how people react to you says a lot about them, it can also say something about you. A trans woman built like a trucker will get better treatment than a cis woman overdressed like a child's Barbie doll, if they own their presentation and make no apologies. Humans are natural followers. We are very much pack animals. If you wish to be treated a certain way, you really have to lead people into treating you that way. People, even the phobic, will fall in line without noticing. Leadership is neither a masculine nor feminine trait. Every strong man had a mother. You can lead by being feminine. You can lead by being trans.

Of course, what I am saying is not fool proof. Misgendering can happen to anyone. Poor treatment can too. Trans people are particularly vulnerable because they are prone to convincing themselves that people will see them as lesser, and that is a self fulfilling prophesy.

Fashion is a touchy subject but I am going to address it. Dress carefully ladies, especially at first, if you have self image issues... and who doesn't? Use your comfort level as a barometer. Something that feels fantastic to wear in private or amongst friends, may actually leave you feeling extra vulnerable in public. Take the hint. If you feel more vulnerable you are more vulnerable. Use clothing like a bulletproof vest. Let it enhance your strengths. Take baby steps. If you go off the deep end at first and it makes you feel vulnerable, you may begin to get used to feeling vulnerable, it will become your new comfort zone. Between the weakened muscles and the improved emotional range, MTFs are already nicely vulnerable in a way most of us prefer. Dressing in a way that enhances that vulnerability further can be dangerous for newbies, especially when alone. Notice cis women. Some cis women can wear the most daring thing and it strengthens them... others are clearly uncomfortable. It isn't just what you wear it is how you wear it. Do you own it? Does it make you feel more like yourself in public?

Really, especially for the newbies, be on the lookout for ensembles, make up, styles that make you feel invincible. We all just want people to treat us like who we are, but our behavior and display provide cues to others as to how we will accept being treated. It takes practice to learn how to take advantage of the good aspects of feminine vulnerability while also using it as a superpower.

I may be new to transition but this is something I know a great deal about.

I didn't mean to rant for so long. I mean no offense to anyone who may have differing opinions. Your opinions are at least as valid as mine.


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stephaniec

Quote from: Tori on December 25, 2013, 07:23:08 PM
A few things that have been said in this thread ring true.

If someone treats you poorly because you are trans, that speaks volumes about them. It does not however, mean they are a bad person. They simply may not know the pronoun rules. I remember when I first joined this community, I accidentally stepped on a bunch of verbal land mines, and I am trans.

Also, if you are convinced in who you are, people tend to buy it. If you are not convinced, people can tell. This goes for being cis, trans or stealth. This is such a simple concept and yet complicated to explain without using an analogy or two. Here goes...

Suspension of disbelief: When you watch television or a movie, you know it is not real, but you tell yourself that you are going to put that aside and go along for the ride. The more convincing your entertainment is, the easier it is to keep your disbelief suspended. Often enough bad writing or acting gets in the way and takes the audience out, it can ruin the experience. Sometimes, the experience is so compelling, you can overlook the flaws. It took me many years to realize the bit players in the Star Wars Trilogy for the most part, really sucked. When I first saw the films, the experience suspended my disbelief, later I was more able to see the faults.

Suspension of disbelief works the opposite way, as have been described earlier in this thread. You can choose to be the Mamma Bear or the Predator. If you convince yourself, others will follow with a remarkable success rate. Again, this works for cis, trans, stealth and anything in between.

A timid person is far more likely to be victimized. This is a sad fact of animal nature. The sick and the weak get eaten.

When I moved to NYC, for the first week, I couldn't walk a block without someone asking me for change or telling me a sob story so I would pay their bus fare back to Long Island... etc. I was a magnet. I asked myself what I was doing wrong. Well, for starters I was dressed nice but not too nice, and I was gawking at every landmark I stumbled across. My behavior screamed gullible tourist. I started dressing down and walking with a purpose, using my periphery to observe the world around me. Within a month, I could go anywhere with 95% fewer interruptions, and when I was interrupted it was often people trying to sell me weed or other drugs, which was annoying but a sign I was fitting in. People saw me as a New Yorker because I presented them with a convincing New Yorker.

So, when I said earlier in my post, how people react to you says a lot about them, it can also say something about you. A trans woman built like a trucker will get better treatment than a cis woman overdressed like a child's Barbie doll, if they own their presentation and make no apologies. Humans are natural followers. We are very much pack animals. If you wish to be treated a certain way, you really have to lead people into treating you that way. People, even the phobic, will fall in line without noticing. Leadership is neither a masculine nor feminine trait. Every strong man had a mother. You can lead by being feminine. You can lead by being trans.

Of course, what I am saying is not fool proof. Misgendering can happen to anyone. Poor treatment can too. Trans people are particularly vulnerable because they are prone to convincing themselves that people will see them as lesser, and that is a self fulfilling prophesy.

Fashion is a touchy subject but I am going to address it. Dress carefully ladies, especially at first, if you have self image issues... and who doesn't? Use your comfort level as a barometer. Something that feels fantastic to wear in private or amongst friends, may actually leave you feeling extra vulnerable in public. Take the hint. If you feel more vulnerable you are more vulnerable. Use clothing like a bulletproof vest. Let it enhance your strengths. Take baby steps. If you go off the deep end at first and it makes you feel vulnerable, you may begin to get used to feeling vulnerable, it will become your new comfort zone. Between the weakened muscles and the improved emotional range, MTFs are already nicely vulnerable in a way most of us prefer. Dressing in a way that enhances that vulnerability further can be dangerous for newbies, especially when alone. Notice cis women. Some cis women can wear the most daring thing and it strengthens them... others are clearly uncomfortable. It isn't just what you wear it is how you wear it. Do you own it? Does it make you feel more like yourself in public?

Really, especially for the newbies, be on the lookout for ensembles, make up, styles that make you feel invincible. We all just want people to treat us like who we are, but our behavior and display provide cues to others as to how we will accept being treated. It takes practice to learn how to take advantage of the good aspects of feminine vulnerability while also using it as a superpower.

I may be new to transition but this is something I know a great deal about.

I didn't mean to rant for so long. I mean no offense to anyone who may have differing opinions. Your opinions are at least as valid as mine.
It sounds like you have a very good understanding of things
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Tori



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UCBerkeleyPostop

We have a saying in the recovery community: What you think of me is none of my business. Over ten years ago, when almost all the world thought of me as a "man in a dress" I was waiting in line at Costco to order a hotdog---back then I still ate hot dogs---when the hot dog lady said, "And what would YOU like, ma'am?" I almost fainted when I realized that she was, indeed, speaking to me. I could have kissed her!

But she was the exception. People either patronized me or were downright mean, like honking their horns at me and yelling nasty things or, with much intent, calling me sir.  I did not realize that what they thought about me had nothing to do with me but everything to do about them. Most women actually treated me nice, going out of their way, many times to tell me how pretty i was, but this was patronizing as well. But at least iot was well-intentioned, the treatment from men who had issues with their sexuality was a different story entirely. Really, I do not know how I survived. Had I owned a gun, I would now be on Death Row or serving a life sentence for murder. The only hope I had was that the surgeries I was saving up my money for would make the world see me as I am. A woman. But it was a long and arduous path.  I did not really believe it at the time but I kept telling myself that what Nietzsche wrote was true "That which does not kill us makes us stronger." I found out it was true.

Well anyway, the surgeries worked but I am still dealing with all the pain I endured through the struggle of transitioning.  And now, instead of dealing with people honking their horns and yelling at me, I deal with mundane things like getting a B+ on a paper. (To me, anything less than an A minus is a failure) I always thought if the world ever accepted me as i am, I would be happy with that. And to an extent it is true, sometimes I look up at the Campanile Tower and want to pinch myself, "I am here at Cal with a 3.7 GPA in my true gender, I am being encouraged to take a job teaching or tutoring, can this really be happening?" But then on other days, it is like I take all this for granted and am pissed off because I don't have a bigger apartment and financial security. Past struggles just become replaced with future ones.  Then again, I tell myself if I had live in a differnt time, I would have been burned at the stake for who I am and I feel grateful again. Although we would all like to have been dealt a full house, very few of us get even a couple of Jacks. We have to learn to play with the hand we are dealt.





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UCBerkeleyPostop

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stephaniec

Quote from: UCBerkeleyPostop on December 27, 2013, 01:03:43 AM
We have a saying in the recovery community: What you think of me is none of my business. Over ten years ago, when almost all the world thought of me as a "man in a dress" I was waiting in line at Costco to order a hotdog---back then I still ate hot dogs---when the hot dog lady said, "And what would YOU like, ma'am?" I almost fainted when I realized that she was, indeed, speaking to me. I could have kissed her!

But she was the exception. People either patronized me or were downright mean, like honking their horns at me and yelling nasty things or, with much intent, calling me sir.  I did not realize that what they thought about me had nothing to do with me but everything to do about them. Most women actually treated me nice, going out of their way, many times to tell me how pretty i was, but this was patronizing as well. But at least iot was well-intentioned, the treatment from men who had issues with their sexuality was a different story entirely. Really, I do not know how I survived. Had I owned a gun, I would now be on Death Row or serving a life sentence for murder. The only hope I had was that the surgeries I was saving up my money for would make the world see me as I am. A woman. But it was a long and arduous path.  I did not really believe it at the time but I kept telling myself that what Nietzsche wrote was true "That which does not kill us makes us stronger." I found out it was true.

Well anyway, the surgeries worked but I am still dealing with all the pain I endured through the struggle of transitioning.  And now, instead of dealing with people honking their horns and yelling at me, I deal with mundane things like getting a B+ on a paper. (To me, anything less than an A minus is a failure) I always thought if the world ever accepted me as i am, I would be happy with that. And to an extent it is true, sometimes I look up at the Campanile Tower and want to pinch myself, "I am here at Cal with a 3.7 GPA in my true gender, I am being encouraged to take a job teaching or tutoring, can this really be happening?" But then on other days, it is like I take all this for granted and am pissed off because I don't have a bigger apartment and financial security. Past struggles just become replaced with future ones.  Then again, I tell myself if I had live in a differnt time, I would have been burned at the stake for who I am and I feel grateful again. Although we would all like to have been dealt a full house, very few of us get even a couple of Jacks. We have to learn to play with the hand we are dealt.
Your story is helps educate about reality. I'm early in transition all people seem to do to me is either smile or look puzzled. The girls smile and the guys look puzzled. I'm glad your living your dream.
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