Growing up within the male gender culture one quickly learns you don't bend or flop your wrist, the general implication being you're either gay or a girl... an invitation for teasing or a bashing. Most gay men don't even do it, but it's certainly a stereotype lumped on their behavioural characteristics. Women, however, do tend to bend their wrists in many situations and it's clearly not a conscious mannerism. I find I do it when I'm at home. Tried to find out some meaning to it but have only found hokey body language "she's passive and likes you" dating tips rubbish. I wonder if floppy wrists is a specific feminine trait, or if it's natural across both genders but socially unlearned by males. Any thoughts?

I've found that most gay men do, especially the flamboyant ones. 

I don't know.  I've always been limp wristed and use my hands to express myself, but I realized it wasn't the "right" thing to do socially.  I think most guys are very conscious about the mannerisms, so as not to appear manly and vice versa with women.   It's probably more of a social thing than anything else.

Guys are very much reserved in their body language and constantly being very aware of that. Whereas girls talk with their hands included and often those hands are just all over the place . It also not only about having limp wrists, but also by exposing them which is some sort of sign of vulnerability or smth like that .

hmm the only gay guys I know who flex their wrists are the super camp ones, most of the others not so much.

And of course most guys will do anything not to be compared with a woman, so if there's a posture that girls are known to use the manly thing is to never do it!

I suppose there's something to the way it can look a bit like the limp paw on an injured or begging animal so it may have subconscious connotations of submission or insecurity. Dunno, I do it myself but wouldn't say I'm feeling submissive or vulnerable when I do it.

Quote from: learningtolive on November 10, 2013, 02:51:38 PMI don't know.  I've always been limp wristed and use my hands to express myself, but I realized it wasn't the "right" thing to do socially.

This. Hands are the only non-verbal communication I can really hone in on.

I always did the limp-wrist thing until about high school...as well as stand like a girl, walking sashaying, etc.

And no, it was not an affectation. It's just how I rolled.

If you don't mind strange geeky theories... I think it may be related to purses, pockets and gravity.
If you carry all of your stuff in your pockets, you are more likely to have your arms at your sides and your hands will naturally hang straight down.
If you have a bag or a purse you are more likely to have your arms nearly at a 90 degree angle and your hands will naturally 'flop' down when they are at rest.
The way you normally hold your arms, whether down or at an angle, eventually becomes ingrained and becomes part of your normal posture.

(My alternate theory involves breasts, as I've also noticed that I tend to hold my arms differently if I'm walking or running and the 'girls' need some extra lateral support.)

While the biomechanics of how men and women hold their arms may explain a tendency towards floppy wrists... the rest can be explained through socialization.  Since floppy wrists are considered a distinct gender marker they are a heavily reinforced / discouraged behavior.

Again... just a geeky theory.

Quote from: SunKat on November 10, 2013, 08:31:36 PM
If you don't mind strange geeky theories... I think it may be related to purses, pockets and gravity.
If you carry all of your stuff in your pockets, you are more likely to have your arms at your sides and your hands will naturally hang straight down.
If you have a bag or a purse you are more likely to have your arms nearly at a 90 degree angle and your hands will naturally 'flop' down when they are at rest.
The way you normally hold your arms, whether down or at an angle, eventually becomes ingrained and becomes part of your normal posture.

(My alternate theory involves breasts, as I've also noticed that I tend to hold my arms differently if I'm walking or running and the 'girls' need some extra lateral support.)

While the biomechanics of how men and women hold their arms may explain a tendency towards floppy wrists... the rest can be explained through socialization.  Since floppy wrists are considered a distinct gender marker they are a heavily reinforced / discouraged behavior.

Again... just a geeky theory.

I know for myself, the way I was able to stop with the limp-wrist/floppy arms was to imagine holding a rifle; arms not quite straight down, but slightly bent with a minor forward/back movement of the shoulders. After a year or so of doing this (both imagining, and doing it) it was pretty "natural" for me in the sense that I didn't notice it so much.

Learning how to march helped with the sashaying.

Gawd I'm glad I don't have to fake "manhood" anymore.

i always do the limp wristed thing, and nobody has said anything about it, which is weird because i live in a conservative state

i guess it goes with my personality though

If I'm relaxed, either by myself or with someone who knows I'm trans and doesn't have an issue with it, then I set aside all that 'being a man' BS and relax ... and the moment I do, my wrists soften and my hands become much more expressive, so that my posture, the gestures I make when I talk and the whole way I present myself automatically becomes 100% more feminine ... Though the other thing that should be borne in mind is that female joints are much more flexible than male ones because the ligaments are more stretchy - that's why women can easily point their toes, for example, which very few men who aren't trained dancers can do. So it's physically, as well as socially much more natural for women to have floppy wrists.

Quote from: Carlita on November 11, 2013, 09:54:10 AM
Though the other thing that should be borne in mind is that female joints are much more flexible than male ones because the ligaments are more stretchy - that's why women can easily point their toes, for example, which very few men who aren't trained dancers can do. So it's physically, as well as socially much more natural for women to have floppy wrists.

I did not know it was supposed to be hard, lol . Btw, one thing which I noticed was that with the HRT an overally good dexterity and flexibility had went up to another level.

Quote from: Carlita on November 11, 2013, 09:54:10 AM
If I'm relaxed, either by myself or with someone who knows I'm trans and doesn't have an issue with it, then I set aside all that 'being a man' BS and relax ... and the moment I do, my wrists soften and my hands become much more expressive, so that my posture, the gestures I make when I talk and the whole way I present myself automatically becomes 100% more feminine ...

Good point, I find I do that too, especially with my gender counsellor.

Quote from: Carlita on November 11, 2013, 09:54:10 AMThough the other thing that should be borne in mind is that female joints are much more flexible than male ones because the ligaments are more stretchy - that's why women can easily point their toes, for example, which very few men who aren't trained dancers can do. So it's physically, as well as socially much more natural for women to have floppy wrists.

Ah yes, makes sense!

I believe floppy wrists are *quite* natural; it shows you are relaxed, but it also does make a person more vulnerable, which is probably why society encourages it for women but discourages it in men.  It is, I believe a societal thing.

I have found that the more I remove my "male" mask, the more my wrists flow naturally and gracefully.  My walk becomes linked to my emotional state... *everything* begins to link to my emotional state.  I think that's a big part of the mannerisms divide... men are taught to hide/repress their emotions; revealing emotional states again implies weakness. 

Our society tends to reward women for being vulnerable (more revealing clothing=less protection, high heals=vulnerable because the wearer is off-balance and unlikely to be able to run quickly, Showing emotion=easier to take advantage of, no pockets=carrying a purse that can be taken, wearing a skirt=less protection from sexual attack, etc) and men for being as invulnerable as possible...

At least, that's my current working theory.  Oh, and limp wrists are much easier to break than firm ones.

One way of looking at it is that this allows women to be more easily controlled and potentially victimized.  Another way of looking at it is that women are expected to be untouchable and therefor to have no need of defense, to be free to express themselves as they wish.  I, at least, greatly prefer the latter.

And of course longer hair is easier to grab...

A lot of your points have no doubt been raised by feminists too. In many parts of the western world it is certainly easier for women to express themselves although the threat of victimisation and attack is sadly only as far away as some jerk. 

I know what you mean about movement linking to one's emotional state, I'm definitely feeling that. Like Beth I'm feeling the desire to sashay! 

Quote from: Ms Grace on November 11, 2013, 03:39:07 PM
And of course longer hair is easier to grab...

Time to change this mode of thinking... The bigger the jerk - the harder he falls and more difficult to miss .

Quote from: ♡ Emily ♡ on November 11, 2013, 03:42:41 PM
Time to change this mode of thinking... The bigger the jerk - the harder he falls and more difficult to miss .

*heh* I agree... I learned a *bunch* of dirty martial art tricks from my instructor back when I was trying hard to be male... I can guarantee that *this* lady won't put up with that stuff.  At the same time, it is amazingly liberating to live without the stuffy, confining armor I used to wear as a man (thinking of you, Emily ).  I know I still repress a lot of the expressiveness in my body and am constantly working to remove it when I am safe; sometimes it feels like I am overdoing "femme" but when I think about it, it seems that it is just the past "must-pass-as-male" conditioning I had before.  When I'm afraid I might be over the top, it generally turns out to be that I am actually behaving in a feminine manner, and at least my fiancee believes it to be very authentic.

So, while I do put the armor back on when I'm alone at night in a dress in public, the rest of the time I try to act as if it is my right and privilege to be as expressive as I want with my body.  So far, so good!

I had a pleasure to discuss many trans related issues with an expert researcher (transman himself) and we both came to conclusion that there once You accept Yourself and proceed in whichever route You find comfortable - a different kind of internal confidence will build up inside of You.

I used to run with my arms up by my chest and such, I'd get laughed at for it in junior high and early high school.  I'd also sometimes wonder with the limp wrist and raised forearm but would quickly drop it if I noticed.  Anymore I kinda do that sort of thing naturally.  I don't even know how often I do it!

I honestly think it has to do with gravity, as someone has said.  Women tend to be more bottom heavy, so to balance out the body they have their arms weighing towards the top more, where men are typically top heavy and tend to hold their hands down causing downward weight.  That's what I honestly believe it is, it could also be a protective instinct involving the breasts,  who knows!

I'm not sure what's up with the wrist thing... I think it is a formal expression of yourself by mirroring how you percieve others. In my case, i see a certain girly quality that I want, and I do it because it feels comfortable and right. I'd say I talk more with my shoulders, waist and head than I do with my wrists though. Wrists are more for... I donno, hyperbolic situations? For me anyway lol

JAZZ HANDS!!