It's kind of a behavioral thing. Both women and men use hand gestures, but the big difference is that women's tend to be "looser." As in, they're not as forceful, there's not as much muscular tension, everything is lighter. Where with men's, there's more power behind their gestures... more muscular tension, more force, more directness.

Limp wrists are therefore feminine, because it's a very loose hand gesture where the hand is just allowed to flop around freely, loosely, which makes them look more passive. Where wrists that stay tense and tight show more force behind them, and therefore look more aggressive and male-ish.

It's not a conscious thing. It's just that women are taught to be less threatening, less direct with their motions, while men are taught to be more forceful and direct.

This is the same reason why loosely-curled fingers are more feminine, while fists are more masculine. They're the same basic hand position, but one is loose while the other one is tight.

Quote from: Carlita on November 11, 2013, 09:54:10 AM
If I'm relaxed, either by myself or with someone who knows I'm trans and doesn't have an issue with it, then I set aside all that 'being a man' BS and relax ... and the moment I do, my wrists soften and my hands become much more expressive, so that my posture, the gestures I make when I talk and the whole way I present myself automatically becomes 100% more feminine ... Though the other thing that should be borne in mind is that female joints are much more flexible than male ones because the ligaments are more stretchy - that's why women can easily point their toes, for example, which very few men who aren't trained dancers can do. So it's physically, as well as socially much more natural for women to have floppy wrists.

Oh, hell... I'm about as flexible as a saltine.
I can only imagine how much more rigid my body's going to be when I start T. Burnt saltine, perhaps?

I remember being in school and watching in horror/amazement as the girls folded in half to do their floor stretches. I always ended up bending just slightly forward before it felt like my coccyx was going to rip out of my skin and I halfheartedly slapped just below my knees. ... Yeah, I'm a swan.

Quote from: Blinded Wolf on November 14, 2013, 01:41:07 AM
Oh, hell... I'm about as flexible as a saltine.
I can only imagine how much more rigid my body's going to be when I start T. Burnt saltine, perhaps?

I remember being in school and watching in horror/amazement as the girls folded in half to do their floor stretches. I always ended up bending just slightly forward before it felt like my coccyx was going to rip out of my skin and I halfheartedly slapped just below my knees. ... Yeah, I'm a swan.

I have a feeling this is just a matter for proper exercising, diet (right food supplements) and getting salt (lol) outta Your joints. My system has always been run by T (as far as I know...), but I have never had any issues with folding in half or bending forwards and touching my toes.

Quote from: Carrie Liz on November 11, 2013, 04:18:06 PM
It's kind of a behavioral thing. Both women and men use hand gestures, but the big difference is that women's tend to be "looser." As in, they're not as forceful, there's not as much muscular tension, everything is lighter. Where with men's, there's more power behind their gestures... more muscular tension, more force, more directness.

Limp wrists are therefore feminine, because it's a very loose hand gesture where the hand is just allowed to flop around freely, loosely, which makes them look more passive. Where wrists that stay tense and tight show more force behind them, and therefore look more aggressive and male-ish.

It's not a conscious thing. It's just that women are taught to be less threatening, less direct with their motions, while men are taught to be more forceful and direct.

This is the same reason why loosely-curled fingers are more feminine, while fists are more masculine. They're the same basic hand position, but one is loose while the other one is tight.

That is stereotyping, and not as a general rule factual.  Women, as you say, would be more prone to being flexible most likely because they tend to be more drawn to activities that would invoke PRACTICE in stretching.  If a man were to go his entire life learning ballet, he too could probably flawlessly twiddle around on the tips of his toes.  It's all about social connections really, women tend to be more drawn to activities that practice their flexibility.

^Hence why I said that women are TAUGHT to be less threatening, less direct, and men are TAUGHT to be more forceful and direct.

I totally agree that it's based on social conditioning.

Doesn't E tend to have some effect on elastisising tendons and the like? I was reading that definitely happens during pregnancy especially close to birth, but maybe that's only an effect of progesterone...

Quote from: Lexi Belle on November 14, 2013, 02:13:15 PM
That is stereotyping, and not as a general rule factual.  Women, as you say, would be more prone to being flexible most likely because they tend to be more drawn to activities that would invoke PRACTICE in stretching.  If a man were to go his entire life learning ballet, he too could probably flawlessly twiddle around on the tips of his toes.  It's all about social connections really, women tend to be more drawn to activities that practice their flexibility.

I totally agree that social stereotypes enhance or exaggerate physical, emotional and social differences between the sexes, across a host of different areas of our lives. But that doesn't mean that inherent differences don't exist. For example, the male body really does have heavier bones and larger, more efficient muscles than the female (assuming equal levels of physical fitness). On the other hand, women really are more flexible (and that flexibility, interestingly, may vary within their menstrual cycle). There's a ton of stuff to back this up all over the internet, but here's a very simple summary:

http://www.ehow.com/list_6641522_athletic-differences-between-men-women.html

Quote: "Women are about 7% more flexible in their limbs and joints than men. Men have longer bones with greater density while women have a lower center of gravity. A woman's weight is more centered around the hips and thighs, and all of this allows for greater mobility in most women's joints when compared to a man with similar athletic pedigree. This added flexibility also helps to make women more coordinated and less likely to injure themselves in track and field events involving jumps and hurdles."

And again:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-501555/Why-female-species-bendy-male.html

And finally, taken from a book called The Science of Flexibility ...

http://www.expertconsultbook.com/expertconsult/ob/book.do?method=display&type=bookPage&decorator=none&eid=4-u1.0-B978-1-4160-5474-0..00015-1--s0070&isbn=978-1-4160-5474-0

(Got to page 120)

'Evidence suggests that generally females are more flexible than males. Although conclusive evidence is lacking, several factors including anatomical and physiological differences, may account for the difference in flexibility between the sexes. Other factors could be smaller muscle mass, joint geometry and gender-specific collagenous muscle structure.'

Note: several studies are cited in that paragraph but I took them out for ease of reading.

I don't know about my wrists... I'm going to be self conscious about that, now

In general, though... I've opened up a TON... and with that comes mannerisms that feel natural. I definitely feel I'm using the whole body more in my reactions - not talking, but just being in a conversation. I jump around a little more too - though that could just be extra energy from losing weight.

All's I know is to not hammer in nails or shoot pistols with a limp wrist

Like my feminine speech, walk, and general demeanor - flopping my wrist is something I have always done and, for most of my life, deeply resented.

This is who I am! I wasn't socialized to behave this way, society violently ordered me to /stop/ being like this. I couldn't! I tried but it's just who I am. It's how I behave.

I hate how much men are shamed for being fem. when I was a boy I had so much fear and shame about who I was. I remember watching my mom one day, she was talking to someone and her wrist was so limp, just like mine. I realized that she always does that.

This is when I started to realize that my behavior wasn't unnatural or weird it was just SHAMED by society. Anyway...it's cool I can be a girl now because I am a girl - but it sucks that men don't have the freedom to express their femininity, I remember how it felt and I think men deserve to be who they really are, too.

So true Di, so true. So much of the natural behaviour of both genders has been modified and repressed by social pressure, some of it going back centuries!

Of course....I know many fem men who would absolutely want to live in a world where they weren't dehumanized for being feminine.

It's so hard to know isn't it? My dad and several other guys I know are highly self-contained individuals that never talk about themselves as if the world would open up and swallow them whole if they did... and yet they are clearly so lonely even when surrounded by people. Is it their gender upbringing that's telling them not to express themselves or just shyness or social ineptitude, or a bundle of things?

Di (and others), you might like to check out an article I wrote years ago that talked in part about how society acts as the gender police, especially against naughty gender transgressives such as ourselves! I posted it to the forum a while back - In Transit.

Quote from: ♡ Emily ♡ on November 16, 2013, 07:07:36 AM
I am going to take a look at that article, thank You . Now, continuing with Your comment, I have a friend, male friend. I know for about 15 years, maybe even a bit longer and he is always projecting this masculine image outwards. The way he dresses - since I know him for such a long time - his choices have evolved from sturdy biker leather jackets and jeans, towards camo or khaki combat fatigues, BDUs and tactical gear. Now, he prefers clothes from 5.11 which is another choice for masculine macho guys who for some reasons prefer more discreet, yet practical clothing which does ot scream BDU accross the street. Needless to say, his backpack has an integrated MOLLE system, and he carries a gun, pocket knife and multitool. The overal image is – ,,Dont even think or start, or else I will tear You apart before Your first move".

Since I know him for such a long time, I know he has a different inner side. Of course, at times he is arrogant, aggressive and very dominant  in his speech pattern and argumentation, but he is quite vulnerable inside. He is definitely puzzled about women and he is afraid that he can't love one to the extent they used to love him. Hence, the lack of reciprocity has forced him to break many relationships – because he was not sure that he was good enough. See where it goes? Insecurity. He is very kind with those he likes and he totally melts in the presence of cats or fluffy kittens – his behaviour becomes very childish and boyish and there is that confused smile on his rugged face. I definitely could not imagine him with floppy wrists... no, he is not that kind of person even if that would be allowed. But he certainly would benefit from letting out some of his internalised feelings and emotions, instead of locking them down. Now, I looked over what I just wrote and it is just so so typical...

Hey... some of that boy stuff is cool I love my man bag and wish there were smaller, feminine versions of them. The best part are the Grimloc D-ring biners - AWESOME to hold keys. My bag is my purse at this point... though I don't feel right bringing it into stores (too big) - I keep nothing in my pockets unless I'm going in a store...

I was giving my x2b-wife a backrub... she was browsing Vera Bradly. All I could do was cry... I don't know that I'm even getting a Christmas present from her, let alone something that acknowledges who I am.

♥

Sorry to derail the thread...

Quote from: ♡ Emily ♡ on November 16, 2013, 08:03:39 AM
Oh, I have a Jumbo Versipack too - I went for left-handed version and Desert Tan... . But my friend agreed to buy it from me . But I am keeping Grimlock carbines though (those are great), as they fit my 1-day assault backpack, which at least is good for hicking and camping and I store my Camelbak hydration system in it  .

Awesome I have the S-type too (makes more sense wearing it on the left... it's not like I'm using the CCW pouch for more than a Kindle) - green and tan (as pictured). I carry it everywhere. . .