This was question my mom asked me last night during an argument. Spent the rest of the night trying to answer it. Her points of contention was that I didn't act feminine, I didn't play with dolls as a kid (the only one of 4 to do so), and even that I don't do 'female' hobbies (sewing, cooking, ect.). She felt that wearing male clothing like I had planned means that I want to have the privileges of being female without giving up any male privileges. Same with practicing kendo and video games. In short, she said that I was not feminine in the least. I disagree of course but...

My question is, do you believe it is possible to be female without being feminine? Or do you believe that one must act like a girl to be considered a girl?

There's plenty of women doing all your doing.
Also generally we're repressed plenty and we had to blend with the crowd, so what we've been doing has no bearing on anything, plenty of marines
have transitioned and she'd be very surprised how they look now.
Sewing has not been a prefferred female hobby in at least 30 years.
Don't defend yourself.
Its how you feel and that's that.
Next, explore this with a therapist so you can really define the next steps; hope your mother will support you.

Stereotyping is a dangerous thing.

I am not a stereotypically feminine girl. I don't like skirts and dresses. I'm a huge book nerd, and I program computers for fun. I drive a sports car, cause I like to feel the wind in my hair at 80mph. These are not feminine activities -- nor are they masculine. We are what we make of ourselves.

When I was a kid, I was mad that there wasn't a girl ninja turtle, or that Sandra Lee had been more ACTIVE and did something cool like racing Danny Zuko in Grease, instead of the lame "I'll change for my man" ending. They make it look like boys have more fun. I watched boy shows (girl shows too, but they're not usually as fun) and played video games. I was (still am) also a sports-hating asthmatic book nerd. And I knew, somehow, that I was a girl. A girl that didn't want to be a sassy princess or be saved by some guy and live happily ever after. I wanted to be me. As a girl. And that's precisely what I am. I don't question my femininity because I like things that other people classify masculine, and I'm not going to change who I am to be accepted as more of a woman. Girls can have fun too, and it doesn't HAVE to be clothes-shopping gossip fun, or dressing up just for the sake of dressing up fun. Although that CAN be fun.

In short, don't worry so much. Look inside yourself, and say...

"I am me."

And figure out what exactly that means, cause nobody else can do it for you.

Quote from: Angel on July 24, 2007, 09:54:05 AM
This was question my mom asked me last night during an argument. Spent the rest of the night trying to answer it. Her points of contention was that I didn't act feminine, I didn't play with dolls as a kid (the only one of 4 to do so), and even that I don't do 'female' hobbies (sewing, cooking, ect.). She felt that wearing male clothing like I had planned means that I want to have the privileges of being female without giving up any male privileges. Same with practicing kendo and video games. In short, she said that I was not feminine in the least. I disagree of course but...

My question is, do you believe it is possible to be female without being feminine? Or do you believe that one must act like a girl to be considered a girl?

This is a particular transgender stereotype that needs to die quickly.  The toy/doll and hobby thing is obnoxious.  Its based on gender stereotypes that need to be put to rest. 

Quote from: Tak on July 24, 2007, 10:13:52 AM
Stereotyping is a dangerous thing.

I totally agree. There are alot of females who act "male". It doesn't make them any less female..

If a tomboy refused to play with dolls, she probably wouldn't have her girlhood questioned. Except by uptight stereotypers, I guess. Plus you were probably directed toward the 'boy' things. I think most kids will play with anything available if given the opportunity.

I wonder if your mom thinks Danika Patrick is a female?

Just be yourself honey. If all transgendered females had to conform to some stereotype we'd all be prancing around in frilly little pink outfits and speaking falsetto with a lisp! And if that's you, that's OK also.
My GID counsellor told me not to try and be anyone else except the person I am and have always been. The only adjustments I need are physical, not mental. Although I love cooking I've never liked sewing or knitting so I won't be joining the local quilting club, thanks.
No, you be true to yourself and don't think you have to conform to your mom's idea of what a girl should be. You know who you are.
Best wishes, Louise

LOL.  Your Mother would be in for a shock with natally born women too then.
She would get laughed out of a room full of lebians.

Women no longer fell forced to wedge themself into a category, or confine themselves to certain behaviours.

It sounds like your Mother is dealing with her own insecurities, and projecting it onto you.

It sounds like she feels resentful that she followed the 'coaching' of our generation, and is upset that you do not have to do the same. It probably made her miss out on a lot of life, and you make her realize that. That is her stuff, not your stuff. Just be a loving daughter, and give her the chance to come around. It may take her some time. Be patient.

It mat be related to your ethnic background or religious upbringing too. Certain deomgraphics feel very threatened by empowered women.

It could also be related to her inability to see this in you as a child. It makes her feel inadequate and makes her question herself. Her own womanhood. That is scary.

She is probably really off balance because off all of this. Just give her time. Time heals all things, and women are especially resilient. Once she realizes that it is not a phase, and not about you seeking attention, than she might "get it." It takes time.

Quote from: Angel on July 24, 2007, 09:54:05 AM
My question is, do you believe it is possible to be female without being feminine? Or do you believe that one must act like a girl to be considered a girl?

Yes, because, simply, what is 'female'. What is 'accepted' normal now is not what was in years past. That, in and of itself, should be enough proof that the concept of what is 'girl stuff' is pretty malleable.

This said, I am a tomboy, an happy with that. I have traits of the girly girly stereotype and the butch stereotype. What is 'girl'? ^*shrug* Shove a girl into a boy frame and society for a good number of years and you do NOT get the norm. At least, I do not think so.

You might mention to her that YOU are the one who has to live with this.

Just a minute while I finish my patchwork quilt, take my cakes out of the oven, finish off my flower arrangement, run to fetch my hubbie's slippers, let my fuchsia pink nail varnish dry, rearrange the net curtains, ...

All I can say is, if these types of things define who is and who is not female, then my sister's got a very big secret she's (he's?) keeping from me! 

MVER XXX

These are two seperate aspects that make up who someone is.

Gender Identity: The "brain" gender. Inborn and unchangeable.
Gender Expression: How you present and express yourself.

There are male, female, both, neither, mixtures of the two for both Gender Identity and Gender Expression. Also, the combination of Gender Identity and Gender Expression are interchangeable. Meaning that No matter what Gender Identity you posess, you can have any corresponding Gender Expression. For instance, I feel that I have a female Gender Identity, yet I have a more neutral Gender Expression. I like male activities, female activities, and any combination of the two. I would hate to have to limit my expressions to that of a set itinerary of activities just because of my Gender Identity.

Sarah

Thanks all, I think what is really throwing mom for a loop is that I say i'm a woman and changing my body to fit my mind, and yet I still want to be with a girl. Her words, 'why would you go trough all of this just to be gay?'  Oye, my family is the biggest group of smart dumb people I know. She could't get that gender identity and sexual orinentation are two differnt things

As for being consevative, my mother happens to be a OBGYN (irony anyone?) and became one in a time when female doctors wern't really accepted and even managed to have a family which was even more outside the norm. Had to tell my grandpa what she thought of dropping out of med school when she ave birth to my older brother. She thinks i'm just confused and had bad role-models for being a man (we both agreed dad wasn't the best, though I do respect him.) Now, she wants me to further pursue th question if this is just depression or something else with a psycologist, but yet she dosn't trust the psycologists I have seen.

IMO the only true differences beween men and women is the sexual organs and what you identify as. Everything that makes me a woman in my mind and my actvities could easily be done and enoyed by a man. So i'm a crass, sarcastic, and hard hitting woman, it turns out I went through basic with one of those training me. I think her biggest fear is that I won't 'pass'. Epecially going into teachng. *shrugs*

Now if I can just figure out why I care so much about her opinion, especially when my parents keep showing their ignorence in my best effort to educate them. How have you delt with people questioning your transistion or gender?

Your mom needs to let go and grow up.


There are two daughters in my house. One is now 11 the other is 8. The 11 year old has never once picked up a doll, put on a dress, pierced her ears, or did aything remotely girly. She would rather catch bugs, play nintendo DS or play on her computer and draw or play games. She likes pokemon and digimon and other types of anime'

The 8 year old pretty much owns Matel. She has every barbie and pink frilly thing ever made. She loves wearing panty hoses and dresses and is the girliest little thing you could ever see. She does play princess barbie games on her computer though. She loves all the little girly movies. She got her ears pierced...demanded it if I remember correctly at the age of 4.

Both are female. There is just as large range of females as there is a range of males. Not all males watch sports, drink beer, play golf, and shoot guns.

Not all females are girly. Your mom needs to open her eyes to reality and needs to stop living in her little social confort zone where everybody fits a certain stereotype.

All humans are differnt. Did you know that more women picked up hunting last year than men? That is a statistical fact. This is a new era/age. Women are not confined to the kitchen. They are not confined to being a legal pump for a husband and raising kids. Most women I see wear jeans and t-shirt type tops. Some are really pretty, some are not so pretty. Some get really girly looking some do not.

You can be a female and look and act however you want. Don't let your mom or anybody tell you different.

Posted on: July 24, 2007, 05:43:39 PM

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Quote from: Rebis on July 24, 2007, 11:06:23 AM

If a tomboy refused to play with dolls, she probably wouldn't have her girlhood questioned. Except by uptight stereotypers, I guess. Plus you were probably directed toward the 'boy' things. I think most kids will play with anything available if given the opportunity.

I agree with that. A girl can act like a tomboy and its acceptable. A boy cannot act like anything but a boy or he will be labeled gay and whisked away to doctors to find out what is wrong.

I'm sure there are some parents that a boyish girl would drive insane but that would be rare.

Quote from: Angel on July 24, 2007, 09:54:05 AM
My question is, do you believe it is possible to be female without being feminine? Or do you believe that one must act like a girl to be considered a girl?

In my view being feminine is your expression and behavior from your personality, temperament and socialization, and has little to do with being female. Look at the gamut of women and you'll see many women be and act partly if not almost wholly masculine and the reverse with men. The problem is that many people equate both in an idealized version which isn't reality. Many women have to alter themselves to be feminine, why else are there so much pressure on women to be feminine? And all these makeover or similar shows changing women into something they're naturally not.

Ask your Mom what feminine is to her? And then ask if all girls/women do that? And if they don't, are those that don't not feminine? It's the question I always ask because there isn't any one definition of femininity, especially when you look at the range of women in this country and in other countries and cultures.

--Susan--

Quote from: LoriI agree with that. I girl can act like a tomboy and its acceptable

Quite true but it's very different for us, MTF transsexuals. Unless you're very passable, you can't get away with acting like a tomboy & be perceived as female.

QuoteCan you be female if you don't act like it?

Yes you can, but society can be a challenge.  Can you live with that?  if the answer is yes,  super!

Quote from: Jeannette on July 24, 2007, 06:33:35 PM

Quote from: LoriI agree with that. A girl can act like a tomboy and its acceptable

Quite true but it's very different for us, MTF transsexuals. Unless you're very passable, you can't get away with acting like a tomboy & be perceived as female.

Interesting observation I had not considered. I do agree with that though.

You can act however you feel. We are trying to get away from the act and have our true feelings here. You look at GG's and if you see 10 walking by, you will see 10 different ways to act like a woman. If you see 10 different guys walk by, you will see 10 different ways of being a guy. We are not the same. This is your feelings and the way you want to express them. You cannot hide from them or dismiss them from your life, it is like they were innate, and maybe they are?
Sheila

Know what you call a girl whos not girly yet not a tomboy.... Athletic...
Im in a punkrock band and I play the drums......  yeah really girly...
I can also hang with the guys and hold my own.... again really girly...
Does this mean Im not accepted as a woman???

Simple answer NO!

Posted on: July 24, 2007, 11:43:15 PM

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oh, as an afterthought, I used to be into martial arts and still remember allot of the stuff... and I used to like videogames... though after starting HRT I lost allmost all intrest in them  *Shrugs* go figure.

Why are you having this argument with your mom anyway? What did you do to make her think she has a say in your sex life or how you express your gender? I think it's time you politely tell your mom that you are not welcoming any influence from her about sexual matters and you would feel more comfortable not debating your sex and gender decisions because these subjects are part of your adult life. This is all so one way, you wouldn't dream of suggesting to her that she studies the Kama Sutra to polish up on a few moves. I would guard against falling into the parent/child dynamic here, this topic needs to be discussed as one adult talking to another adult. Answer her questions yes, she needs to understand but if you welcome her opinions on how to manage your sex and gender issues she will always see you as a child. Part of growing up means making your own decisions and living with the consequences.