My plan is to do Spiro only from December 26th (endo appointment) until May/June...

If I were to do very low dose estrogen (the lowest the endo might prescribe), what effects would I expect over just Spiro?

17-beta estradiol first effects the brain.  Of the MtF or MtA members who have been on HRT, I have not seen a single one complain about the calming and "correct" feeling that comes from estrogen.

Some are taken aback by the emotional changes.  I had days where I just uncontrollably cried for no reason at all.  It was emotionally cathartic.

Ultra low doses would not generally cause major physical effects (in the short term).

When in doubt, talk to your health care provider(s).

Quote from: J on November 23, 2013, 03:59:18 PM
Some are taken aback by the emotional changes.  I had days where I just uncontrollably cried for no reason at all.  It was emotionally cathartic.

Y'know, I wondered how much of this stuff was true and if it would really happen. Not just before HRT but, really up until now lol. But here I am, coping with these very real mental changes and I feel like I've got this ball of emotions inside of me waiting to explode at the most inopportune moment. xD I think you just really have to experience it for yourself, and just go with it. It's weird and different but nice in a way.

Quote from: Ashey on November 23, 2013, 04:23:47 PM
Y'know, I wondered how much of this stuff was true and if it would really happen. Not just before HRT but, really up until now lol. But here I am, coping with these very real mental changes and I feel like I've got this ball of emotions inside of me waiting to explode at the most inopportune moment. xD I think you just really have to experience it for yourself, and just go with it. It's weird and different but nice in a way.

I'm considering asking for this even more now. I want that... sounds crazy, but I want the head stuff more than the body stuff right now (though maybe only because major body changes has to wait for divorce, completed LHR, etc).

Do breasts begin forming on low dose E?

Quote from: kabit on November 23, 2013, 04:28:15 PM
Do breasts begin forming on low dose E?

Not always, but I went from completely flat to having cleavage in 4 months on low dose E alone.  I know someone who had to retire some shirts forever after 18 months on just a low dose.

Low dose E will result in some changes and potential breast growth over the short term. It might or might not be noticeable to others but it will be noticeable to you.

I found mine responded within the first week as they became very sensitive. Now there is some growth also.
Given time even a low dose of E will result in changes to the body in general.

Personally I love it.

Jen

Quote from: Jill F on November 23, 2013, 04:42:21 PM
Not always, but I went from completely flat to having cleavage in 4 months on low dose E alone.  I know someone who had to retire some shirts forever after 18 months on just a low dose.

Hmm... that could put me FT by summer!

Of course I'd be completely happy with that... but it could also cause some problems.

Quote from: Jenny07 on November 23, 2013, 04:51:01 PM
Low dose E will result in some changes and potential breast growth over the short term. It might or might not be noticeable to others but it will be noticeable to you.

I found mine responded within the first week as they became very sensitive. Now there is some growth also.
Given time even a low dose of E will result in changes to the body in general.

Personally I love it.

Jen

Whereas that sounds like exactly what I want... slow growth (and other changes) at least until I up the dosage.

Complicated decision... I may have to talk to my x2b-wife about it... since there's risk of speeding up the timeline, but I have a ton of need for the mental changes right now!

Quote from: kabit on November 23, 2013, 04:28:15 PM
I'm considering asking for this even more now. I want that... sounds crazy, but I want the head stuff more than the body stuff right now (though maybe only because major body changes has to wait for divorce, completed LHR, etc).

Do breasts begin forming on low dose E?

They can, in time.  I had naturally low T and high E from my adolescence, and a moderate case of persistent pubertal gynecomastia (A cups).

The lowest dosage patch cause some breast budding (jump starting what was already there), but because it was so low, it did not contribute to female distribution of fat which helps form breast, hips, etc.

EDIT LOL unfortunate typo

Kabit

I found the mental changes amazing. Sort of like taking an aspirin for a headache. Magic.
It has made me feel alive for the first time in forever...
What is wrong with being happy even if it is on low dose?

My endo always start people off on a low dose and I think this is wise as the body does take time to adjust.
I had bad headaches and muscle soreness for the first 2 weeks, but it was so nice knowing that E was under way.

Low dose will decrease your T and have effects all over, not just the breasts. My T halved in the first 3 weeks.

Jen

Quote from: Jenny07 on November 23, 2013, 05:08:03 PM
Kabit

I found the mental changes amazing. Sort of like taking an aspirin for a headache. Magic.
It has made me feel alive for the first time in forever...
What is wrong with being happy even if it is on low dose?

My endo always start people off on a low dose and I think this is wise as the body does take time to adjust.
I had bad headaches and muscle soreness for the first 2 weeks, but it was so nice knowing that E was under way.

Low dose will decrease your T and have effects all over, not just the breasts. My T halved in the first 3 weeks.

Jen

Thanks Jen! I'm probably definitely going to push for ultra low dose E and AA's. From talking with a friend, my endo likes to start people on spiro first and add E a month or so later... hopefully she'll be fine with low dose, given my social constraint.

If that's the case, I'll also be able to gauge the mental affects just spiro has on me.
I'm right about a month away and my anticipation is really growing!!

Quote from: kabit on November 23, 2013, 04:28:15 PM
Do breasts begin forming on low dose E?

Gynecomastia (breast formation) can happen from spiro alone even with no E.

Quote from: Marissa on November 23, 2013, 05:22:41 PM
Gynecomastia (breast formation) can happen from spiro alone even with no E.

I had that on one side just from reduced T while obese! It's hideable, though... I'm mostly concerned about stuff that will be impossible to hide during summer-shirt weather.

Just be patient and see it as a late Xmas gift for you.

It will probably be the longest month ever for you.

Quote from: Jenny07 on November 23, 2013, 05:27:56 PM
Just be patient and see it as a late Xmas gift for you.

It will probably be the longest month ever for you.

It should pass quickly, I hope! Next week is thanksgiving... and I'm busy at work for the next two weeks... then I go on travel for work! It'll hopefully only be the last two weeks or so that will be most difficult.

Quote from: Joules on November 23, 2013, 06:12:33 PM
This +1.  I was on low dose Spiro for many months as a diuretic, before I even knew it was often a part of HRT.  I got sore nipples and some very mild breast growth most of that time, although it was incidental to my concerns then.  I was shocked and mildly surprised when I first began investigating transition and HRT to find out I had started the process without even knowing about it.

I got fairly nice response from low dose E for the first 4 months.  Hard to describe the dose due to Susan's TOS, but I was told it was about the same level as a normal, mature cis female in her prime.  Since doubling on that dose, I haven't noticed any significant change in the rate of growth, maybe even slightly less ().  What I have gathered from other posts, much lower doses can be fairly effective as well.  The usual "more is better" thinking may not really apply to MTF HRT.

Yeaaah... the only annoying part of the ToS. I understand and agree with why, but it hinders those of us doing it the "right" way too Unfortunately it sounds to me as though one person and one endo's definiton of "low dose" could be wildly different from another's.

It sounds like "low dose" should be aiming for Tanner II blood estradiol levels... (40-60 pmol/L)? (Hope that skirts the TOS... obviously bloods and MD help are needed to determine dosage).

~~
I hope I'm not breaking rules now... but do phytoestrogen sources affect you significantly more on AA's?

Before coming out (and part of the reason I realized I had a problem) I was eating hops twice daily. That lasted about a week or two before I realized it could affect fertility. After two months (cycles) of this, I came OOTC. (I didn't want #4... which I think made that dysphoria much worse this time around ). In any case, I realize this did nothing because phyto sources aren't usually strong enough to overcome the T without resorting to dangerously high doses... with AA's seems like just a healthy vegetarian diet high in greens, soy, etc might significantly affect estrogen levels.

My understanding was that phyto estrogens can interfere with natural estrogen being used resulting in poor results.

Quote from: kabit on November 23, 2013, 06:33:26 PM
I hope I'm not breaking rules now... but do phytoestrogen sources affect you significantly more on AA's?

From what I have read, phytoestrogens can have either a negligible or detrimental effect on MtF HRT.

Quote from: kabit on November 23, 2013, 05:25:06 PM
I had that on one side just from reduced T while obese! It's hideable, though... I'm mostly concerned about stuff that will be impossible to hide during summer-shirt weather.

There are two types of gynecomastia.

Pseudogynecomastia presents with breasts composed of primarily adipose (fatty) tissue.  Sometime they are called "fat boy tits."

http://www.cosmetic-md.com/gynecomastia/pseudogynecomastia/

True gynecomastia (woman-like breasts) are composed of both adipose tissue and glandular tissue (lobules, ducts, etc).

Quote from: Joules on November 23, 2013, 06:12:33 PM
This +1.  I was on low dose Spiro for many months as a diuretic, before I even knew it was often a part of HRT.  I got sore nipples and some very mild breast growth most of that time, although it was incidental to my concerns then.  I was shocked and mildly surprised when I first began investigating transition and HRT to find out I had started the process without even knowing about it.

I got fairly nice response from low dose E for the first 4 months.  Hard to describe the dose due to Susan's TOS, but I was told it was about the same level as a normal, mature cis female in her prime.  Since doubling on that dose, I haven't noticed any significant change in the rate of growth, maybe even slightly less ().  What I have gathered from other posts, much lower doses can be fairly effective as well.  The usual "more is better" thinking may not really apply to MTF HRT.

I was somewhat dreading the possibility of emotional outbursts but doubt if I have experienced what others have described.  There have been moments of upheaval but they were short-lived.  Although I'm a little embarrassed to admit it, I do suspect that I have had a few bursts of anger that were a likely result of E.  My lawyer is pushing the court dates out as far as she can

You and me both, Sister!  And I was on Aldactone (brand name for Spironolactone) as a diuretic, following my heart surgery, because I did not respond well to thiazide diuretics.

Addressing the question of emotions while on low dose HRT: I was on low dose HRT for several years, and recently I experienced wild, uncontrollable emotions about a year ago when my life was in complete upheaval.  Nothing was certain and big changes were happening (moving far away, starting a new job, uncertainty about the future, uncertainty about finances, etc). I had fallen apart and was in tears 15 minutes before I had my job interview but I managed to pull it together in time and aced the interview. I'm sure that they noticed my red eyes  The weepiness continued for a long time after the upheaval was over.

I've since changed to a full transitioning dose, and my feelings and emotions have not seemed to really change much from what I was feeling before on the low dose.

So yeah, estrogen in whatever dose can be very, very powerful.