If you were certain you would never pass, would you still transition?

If you were certain you would never be accepted would you still transition?

If you were certain people would still see you as your birth gender even though they may hide their reaction, would you still transition?

If you thought Gender Dysphoria were entirely mental, would you still transition?

If you thought Gender Dysphoria were entirely physical, would you still transition?

If you were certain that you would never find love and no one would want to be with you would you still transition?

If you were certain that you would never find anyone to love who loves you, and were certain that you would never be accepted or pass, is it a viable decision to just 'live with it' and be miserable. 

I know that virtually everyone here is against suicide, however, I have to ask that if you are certain that you will never pass or be accepted, and at most you are certain that in choosing to transition you will never find love, and it becomes virtually impossible to 'live with it' is suicide ever justifiable?

Jessica

To answer your questions with one word, "YES." Because, I feel, it is NEVER

Quotea viable decision to just 'live with it' and be miserable.

So, that said, it hurts less when transitioning. The hurt is different, an by and large honestly better. Instead of it being massively internal the problems are external. No, the situation still <ahems>, so what are we to do? ... I can only answer for me but NO, I WILL NOT GO BACK. Perhaps that will explain it a bit for you dear. Besides, there is more to life than being cute. An life is SO MUCH BETTER then ever second does not hurt.

So, um, yeah.

I think transition is viable in all cases, I really, honestly do.

Quote from: Jessica on July 24, 2007, 01:39:07 PM


I know that virtually everyone here is against suicide, however, I have to ask that if you are certain that you will never pass or be accepted, and at most you are certain that in choosing to transition you will never find love, and it becomes virtually impossible to 'live with it' is suicide ever justifiable?

Jessica

Suicide should never be a viable option until you have at least tried. Wouldn't you want to at least try transition? Nothing is certain. Well death and taxes are, but besides those two things nothing is certain. You have no idea if you can pass or not or find love or not.

Suicide is never a viable option over fears that are in your head. There is no way to be certain about anything. You don't know...you may think you know, but you don't know. You have not tried yet. Sit down at the mall sometime and do some people watching. I look all the time at women. I constantly tell myself, if she can pass I certainly can. There are some odd looking women out there. Very large ones as well. Tall and wide.

You are going to burn out one day. It may take until you are 60 but one day you are going to realise your head is your biggest enemy and you are fighting yourself.

What if I told you it takes 1/8th the energy to deal with this issue and be on estrogen than it did to fight not being on it? I feel great. I really do. I spent I don't know how many years going through what you are going through now. You are wasting a great deal of time arguing and fighting. Its your life. If you are happy (I don't think you are) living like you are then go on whining about it. The fact is you are not going anywhere. You are in the same place. Talking is not action. Posting on a forum is not going to fix you. Blowing your head off is stupid when you have not even tried. It is easier to give in and try and until you do that, you will never know how good it feels to get that weight lifted off your shoulders.

Quote from: Lori on July 24, 2007, 06:10:19 PM
Suicide should never be a viable option until you have at least tried. Wouldn't you want to at least try transition? Nothing is certain. Well death and taxes are, but besides those two things nothing is certain. You have no idea if you can pass or not or find love or not.

Right. Look Jessica, I see it like this...

I knew how suicide ended. That's pretty depressing and doesn't solve anything. It's just an avoidance of responsibility, IMHO.

And I knew what plodding on forever as I had been would be like. Miserable, empty, pointless. That would never change. "Because you have been down there Neo, you know that road, you know exactly where it ends. And I know that's not where you want to be."

The ONLY variable, the only chance I saw was transition. It's the ultimate Do Over, you just have NO idea how things will turn out. It might be horrible. But it might NOT be horrible too. Maybe you'll lose everything you hold dear right now. And maybe you'll then find new loves and a life you can't even begin to imagine from *here*.

It's not a guarantee, but it IS a *chance*. That's more than the other options offered.

~Kate~

When a person is in their last stages of transition, I believe you will always be in transition, you have answered all those questions. I know I have and I have tried the suicide part as well, I'm not very good at it. I think one of the questions I answered to a dear friend of mine. I asked the question then answered it to her as to show my feelings. I told her that I'm going to transition into a woman, I maybe the  ugliest woman around, but I will be a woman. She looked at me and gave me a hug and said that I would never be ugly. You have to answer all those questions and more,honestly to yourself. If you can't, then don't try and transition, you will only make yourself depressed.
Sheila

Quote from: Jessica on July 24, 2007, 01:39:07 PM
If you were certain you would never pass, would you still transition?...

I would answer yes to all of them except the last about suicide. Why, if I'm in the catagory you describe, the realistic possibility I won't be fully passable? Because, after all the years living with the alternative, it wasn't working, and changing directions was the choice I made. The reality is that you don't know what the future is in your transistion (Read Daniel Gilbert's book Stumbling on Happiness), so you to think you won't or can't transistion, expand your hoizons and experience to rethink your choices.

Suicide isn't an answer, not because it resolves things, but because it's final, and there is no changing your mind. As for, "It's just an avoidance of responsibility, IMHO.", it is one opinion, and having been at the threshold of suicide twice in my life, it's not, in my opinion, a fair response to anyone who's been there. Your whole mind and perspectives changes where reality isn't there to understand what others see but don't understand your view.

Suicide isn't about avoiding anything, or denial, or whatever anyone wants to think about it. To someone thinking about it, or worse, in the process, you need understanding with them than challenging them about life. Sorry to wander off topic, but this is a sensitive subject, beside myself having lost relatives and children of friends to it.

Take care.

--Susan--

Quote from: Jessica on July 24, 2007, 01:39:07 PM
If you were certain you would never pass, would you still transition?

If you were certain you would never be accepted would you still transition?

If you were certain people would still see you as your birth gender even though they may hide their reaction, would you still transition?

How can anyone be certain about these things?

Quote from: Jessica on July 24, 2007, 01:39:07 PM
If you thought Gender Dysphoria were entirely mental, would you still transition?

If you thought Gender Dysphoria were entirely physical, would you still transition?

Searching and wondering about the exact cause of my gender dysphoria is ultimately nothing more than a mental exercise.  I know I have it and I know it needs to be treated.  Knowing what really causes it makes no difference to how I deal with it right now.

Quote from: Jessica on July 24, 2007, 01:39:07 PM
If you were certain that you would never find love and no one would want to be with you would you still transition?

If you were certain that you would never find anyone to love who loves you, and were certain that you would never be accepted or pass, is it a viable decision to just 'live with it' and be miserable. 

I know that virtually everyone here is against suicide, however, I have to ask that if you are certain that you will never pass or be accepted, and at most you are certain that in choosing to transition you will never find love, and it becomes virtually impossible to 'live with it' is suicide ever justifiable?

Jessica

Once again, I cannot fathom how anyone can know these things ahead of time with any kind of certainty.  I suppose that if all other options were exhausted then suicide might be justified but I truly believe, no - I know- that as long as I'm breathing that there are options.  Some may be harder to recognize than others, especially if I'm very depressed, but I still know they're there.

I agree with Kate that transition is something whose ultimate effects cannot be predicted.  It's also, if you think about it, an expression of extreme optimism, a path taken with the goal of being yourself and being truly complete for the first time in your life.  If you have nothing else to lose, why not try it and see?

hugs & smiles
Emelye

"If you quite before you even try, you don't deserve to dream." Words my grandma told me before she died. I refuse to believe that this road only will lead to more pain. I started because I felt that not doing so would lead me to take my own life, so therefore I already have nothing to lose. I would transistion regardless of the knowlage of how much pain it will bring because I want to be me, not a mask.

If you were certain you would never pass, would you still transition?

If you were certain you would never be accepted would you still transition?

If you were certain people would still see you as your birth gender even though they may hide their reaction, would you still transition?

If you thought Gender Dysphoria were entirely mental, would you still transition?

If you thought Gender Dysphoria were entirely physical, would you still transition?

If you were certain that you would never find love and no one would want to be with you would you still transition?

If you were certain that you would never find anyone to love who loves you, and were certain that you would never be accepted or pass, is it a viable decision to just 'live with it' and be miserable.

>My answer to all of these questions was I don't care, I need to do what is right for me. Hoping that they won't come true, but knowing that there is a possibility that all or some will.

>As far as suicide goes. My therapist told me about what I have heard here and other places. Give transition a chance, what do you have to lose? If I would have completed my suicide mission then I would have lost without even trying. I'm glad I listened as I'm not depressed anymore and if you have read any of my other postings, you will know that I'm doing just fine. If I can transition then anyone who is trans can to. I never resembled any female when I had male parts. I looked like a big redneck farmer. I was a meatcutter for 35 years.
Sheila 

Quote from: Emelye on July 25, 2007, 04:53:09 PM

I agree with Kate that transition is something whose ultimate effects cannot be predicted.  It's also, if you think about it, an expression of extreme optimism, a path taken with the goal of being yourself and being truly complete for the first time in your life.  If you have nothing else to lose, why not try it and see?hugs & smiles
Emelye

The way I see it, the choices are quite clear and so are the outcomes:

1-Stay stuck and miserable. Result: become more depressed and unhappy.
2-Give up and end it all. Result: what a waste, you surely deserve better.
3-Be yourself and go for what your heart wants. Result: you risk to have to give up the old destructive patern of self-pitying victim and marthyr and finaly be free to live your life to your full potential.
As Emelye says why not take the chance?

Good luck on your journey of self discovery and realisation.

You are very lucky, with access to this forum you know you are not alone. Others here have gone through similar feelings and moved on. Their personal paths and experiences might give you other perspectives and dissipate your uncertitudes, their  struggles and achievements might give you courage and hope, their care and support might lighten your burden, their honesty might chalenge your paterns, their love and concern might give you strength.

IT IS ALL THERE FOR YOU!

Do you really think so little of yourself to believe that you don't deserve any of it?
Can you find in yourself the compassion to give yourself the chance of accepting it?
Have you been hurt so much in the past that to protect yourself you had to close your heart and your mind?
Can you try to be gentle on yourself and step by step move towards hope and healing?

In My Humble Opinion I think these are the crucial questions that you need to consider before you can make any decisions.

Hope, Light, Love & Respect

Maebh

PS. By posting on this forum I think you have already made the first step. Keep going, don't give up!

There are all sorts of men who wish they were more masculine, had more muscle and were more handsome. Likewise as with women we all wish we were a little bit prettier and a little bit younger and more petite, except the lucky few. Say a man has to live with being picked on because he's effeminate, it will in all probability not be as serious to him if he is truly happy being male. Before I transitioned I tried to fit in as a man and when my masculinity was called into questioned I would try as hard I could to act pissed off, but that was just an act. You're unhappy now and you think you will be unhappy when you transition so maybe the question should be what will make me happier with an emphasis on the er. Who's totally happy anyway?

Those are fair answers.

Where did you find the courage to move forward? To get past these questions?  These are the big issues on my mind and I'm just not sure I can move past them.

Jessica, I have decided to answer you in a PM rather than here.

Quote from: Jessica on July 26, 2007, 08:37:41 AM
Where did you find the courage to move forward? To get past these questions?

IMHO, the only real way to put these questions to rest is to transition and find out.

Yea, I know. Bit of a tragic catch-22 there, huh? But seriously, you can ponder and wonder and fear until you're 120, but you'll never KNOW until you try.

But how do you find the courage to move forward in spite of the doubts? I guess it's different for everyone. In my case, it was finally realizing that I was running out of time, and unless I DID something about all this, I would never, ever live a single day as a female. For 42 years I put it off thinking, "someday, somehow..." and hitting middle-age made me realize I was being really stupid and wasting my life away in daydreams and wishing.

I also realized that no matter how hard we tried, my marriage was never going to be what we tried to FORCE it into being. No amount of effort or workarounds would make me a guy, either to myself OR my wife. We were just both exhausted and miserable of trying to find SOME way to make it all work as a normal, heterosexual couple.

So it was time to grow up, face facts, and try to FIX things as best I could. Yes, that meant creating new damage and hurt in the short term, but that's BETTER to me than spending another 30 years making myself and my wife miserable. It was time to accept WHAT IS and drop the delusion of WHAT WE WANT IT TO BE.

~Kate~

Quote from: Jessica on July 24, 2007, 01:39:07 PM
If you were certain you would never pass, would you still transition?

Yes. Although, I'm biased because I do and I knew before that I would. I was cute then, and even sexier now. LOL

Quote from: Jessica on July 24, 2007, 01:39:07 PM
If you were certain you would never be accepted would you still transition?

At this time I find acceptance easy (even with people who know my past people just can't see me being anything other than female, whether they know or not -- my femininity isn't questioned). Saying that, however, I fully accept that I won't be acceptable in some people's eyes. I have family members who do not and may not ever accept me. But I'm not transitioning for them or for anyone else. For a very long time I lived my life trying to live up to others expectations, but I've been ripping that out of my psychie and starting to live according to my own. It has taken me years to do that. The result is that I'm much more comfortable and confident with myself than I have ever been.

Quote from: Jessica on July 24, 2007, 01:39:07 PM
If you were certain people would still see you as your birth gender even though they may hide their reaction, would you still transition?

Yes. This kind of ties in with the last question.

Quote from: Jessica on July 24, 2007, 01:39:07 PM
If you thought Gender Dysphoria were entirely mental, would you still transition?

Oui. (yes)

Quote from: Jessica on July 24, 2007, 01:39:07 PM
If you thought Gender Dysphoria were entirely physical, would you still transition?

Yes. Believe me, I tried the route of not transitioning. I've even been in the church anti-gay program. I held off for a while, but then started to realize that I had to be who I was or be miserable forever. It took years to de-brainwash and to build up the confidence to go through with the change. My family has known about my gender since I was quite young, and now I'm 27. They've been fighting against it for a long time. My mom was even told by concellers on how to deal with me, which included trying to find me male role models, forcing me to do male activities, play with male toys, etc -- back then it was believed that socialization caused someone to be trans and/or gay.

Oddly enough, they used to believe that using the left hand was bad. In school I was forced to use my right hand when I was left handed. Strangely enough, that created a dysphoria on it's own -- dyslexia. Although my dyslexia has improved since I was young, it used to be very bad. I just find it interesting that when someone takes your natural position and force changes it and the issues that come because if it.

Quote from: Jessica on July 24, 2007, 01:39:07 PM
If you were certain that you would never find love and no one would want to be with you would you still transition?

Yes. Although, I'm bias here, too. I have a girlfriend. And even if we broke off it wouldn't be hard for me to find anyone else. You don't want to know how easy it is for me to get into trouble and how many people seem to be attracted to me. It's kind of strange in a way, I didn't have this my entire life until the last couple of years when I started gaining confidence. Now that I've transitioned, it's even more so. Then my other trans firends are jealous of it and keep saying, "send them my way!" But it doesn't work that way in real life.

Quote from: Jessica on July 24, 2007, 01:39:07 PM
If you were certain that you would never find anyone to love who loves you, and were certain that you would never be accepted or pass, is it a viable decision to just 'live with it' and be miserable. 

Okay, this ties into the last question. But if you had issues finding love beforehand, transitioning isn't going to magically change that. Even very beautiful women can have a very difficult time finding love. Believe me, I know some hot women who can't find anyone because they aren't confident, clingy, and disparate. Those issues can be solved, and those issues should be solved if you want to find "love." It's something that needs work and time.

I've been there before. I know what it's like. I was there for a long time until I started working on my issues and confidence. Before everyone would throw the cliche's at me (useless  and trite).

Quote from: Jessica on July 24, 2007, 01:39:07 PM
I know that virtually everyone here is against suicide, however, I have to ask that if you are certain that you will never pass or be accepted, and at most you are certain that in choosing to transition you will never find love, and it becomes virtually impossible to 'live with it' is suicide ever justifiable?

Jessica

Been there, done that, got the mental ward wrist band.   These are valid fears that a lot of people go through with. There are times when I really wonder if  I didn't have all that I have if I would survive. In all honestly, I probably would have done my final act a long time ago. I

'll have to say that one should not let fear control them and decide there fate. Transitioning is a difficult thing to do where you face many of your fears. Anyone who attempts it is very brave and is doing something that most people couldn't ever do -- be themselves. So many people put on the fake smile in life and never even attempt to be who they are because of fear.

Anyone who transitions (whether I like them or not), has a degree of my respect because they are facing there fears, being who they are, and doing what so few do.

For me, transitioning is a very important part of my life. I'm breaking down walls and barriers, I'm doing stuff I've never done before, and most importantly I'm learning to be myself. It's not an easy process -- there are a lot of ups and downs -- but it's a worthwhile process. I am growing into me.

Jessica,

I had the courage to transition yes, but then I wasn't living in Alabama so I don't know what you're up against. If you can build an emotional support system with as many friends and family you can get that will help with courage. A councilor will help sort things out.

Good luck,
Jonie

Unfortunately, transitioning is filled with uncertainty and thats what makes it so hard to undertake.  But I like your fun little quiz...

QuoteIf you were certain you would never pass, would you still transition?

I don't know, that's a good question because passing is important to me.  I would try to settle on an existence where there is the least amount of suffering for all concerned. 

But, I pass, so this doesn't pertain to real-life.

QuoteIf you were certain people would still see you as your birth gender even though they may hide their reaction, would you still transition?

Absolutely.  I pass most of the time but not 100%.  As long as people don't want to engage in violent or verbally abusive actions, I don't mind some whispering here and there.  In fact, I kind of enjoy the attention sometimes.  But most people are too busy wrapped up in their own lives to be bothered though.

QuoteIf you thought Gender Dysphoria were entirely mental, would you still transition?

I still don't know what Gender Dysphoria is, but its not a bad description of my experience.  Trying to compartmentalize it into mental/physical is not an argument I am willing to entertain.  Mental/physical is entirely a thought in itself.

QuoteIf you thought Gender Dysphoria were entirely physical, would you still transition?

see above

QuoteIf you were certain that you would never find love and no one would want to be with you would you still transition?

If no one wants to be with me, then I have bigger problems than my GID.  Do you mean no one that wants to have sex with me?  Oh, I'm definitely going to have sex, there is no negotiating there    I'm certain. 

QuoteIf you were certain that you would never find anyone to love who loves you, and were certain that you would never be accepted or pass, is it a viable decision to just 'live with it' and be miserable.

Pretty much the same as the previous question.

QuoteI know that virtually everyone here is against suicide, however, I have to ask that if you are certain that you will never pass or be accepted, and at most you are certain that in choosing to transition you will never find love, and it becomes virtually impossible to 'live with it' is suicide ever justifiable?

Suicide?  My advice is not to do it.  You only live once, just f***ing go for it and see what happens.  If you've known all your life that you are trans and been too chicken, as I was, then maybe its time to do something about it.  I would rather transition than commit suicide, absolutely.

I feel that suicide should be a personal choice, although one that should have a very good justification. I don't feel that any or all of these reasons would be enough. I have feared or thought about all of them, but fear is a very poor justification.

I greatly feared not passing, to the point where I didn't come out until my early 50's. But then I discovered that there are different ways to pass, and that the manner in which I present myself is far more important than physical details.

I greatly feared being alone, and yet two weeks after I transitioned outside of work (I did the work part later), I found my partner. What if I hadn't taken that chance?

There has only been one time during my transition that I seriously considered the possibility of suicide. This last April, four months into "full time", while consulting with an SRS surgeon, I learned I had tumor. It proved to be testicular cancer. Cancer has been one of my great fears, and for two months between the diagnosis and the final post-surgery pathology report I did not know for certain exactly what the tumor was or what my prospects would be. I started out assuming the worst and feeling suicidal, but I gradually felt my way through each possible outcome that I knew about and eventually decided that I could indeed go on if it turned out to be any of those.

After all of that worry, it turned out to be one of the best possible outcomes, classic seminoma that had not spread. I just finished 3 weeks of radiation treatments, and hopefully that will be all (97.5% chance). I am back to planning for SRS.

While it was an awful experience--what pre-op wants to be treated for that--it did wonderful things for my assertitiveness and self-confidence and showed me once again that giving up is just not a very good idea.

Quote from: Jessica on July 24, 2007, 01:39:07 PM
If you were certain you would never pass,  be accepted, were certain people would still see you as your birth gender even though they may hide their reaction, thought Gender Dysphoria were entirely mental, or physical, would you still transition?

If you were certain that you would never find love and no one would want to be with you would you still transition?

is suicide ever justifiable?

Jessica

I never thought I would pass, I thought I would never be accepted, and know many I work with still see as my birth gender,  and do think GID is entirely mental and physical.

My answer is:  here I am now, unrecognizable as a man to most, even though the workplace is a problem, though one I can live with, or change.  I don't need to look for love, for in my particular case, I am blessed, and loved now for who I am, by my wife.

Suicide is a reckless solution for personal pain, and you will never really know the wreckage you may leave behind as a result of 'checking out'.  It's trite, but there are so many stories of 'what would the world be like if I had never been born?'.  The ending of all such stories along those lines show that it would be a tragedy. I have no idea now what the world would be like without Beverly.  I know the impact would be greatest on my wife, my soul mate, and my children and grandchildren.


I will never agree that suicide is a justifiable.  I have yet to see over all the horizons, and cannot inflict such pain on my family.

Bev

Quote from: Jessica on July 24, 2007, 01:39:07 PM
If you were certain you would never pass, would you still transition?

If you were certain you would never be accepted would you still transition?

If you were certain people would still see you as your birth gender even though they may hide their reaction, would you still transition?

I know that virtually everyone here is against suicide, however, I have to ask that if you are certain that you will never pass or be accepted, and at most you are certain that in choosing to transition you will never find love, and it becomes virtually impossible to 'live with it' is suicide ever justifiable?

Jessica

If I had transitioned, not passed and could not live as I do now, then yes Suicide would have been my prefered option.

I did not go into this aiming just to survive or looking like a guy in a dress, I wanted total integration, total acceptance and a life like any other woman. I did not transition to be a transsexual, that was my worst fear, if that had happened, then I would have ended my life.

Buffy