My Dad mentioned to me he didn't know if it was legal for people to use the bathroom that's opposite of their body. (I'm transgender, MtF) And soon I will be going shopping for hrs. That means I'll have to use the women's bathroom more than likely. So my question here is, is it legal or not for us trans people to use the bathroom that's for the gender that's opposite of our body? If it's not legal, what will happen if we do use the bathroom that for the gender we truly are? (Aside from being arrested maybe, like would it be on our records thus making it harder to get a job and everything that happens, please tell me as I need to know, thanks)

Sorry if my wording here hurt anyone, just don't know how else to word this is all.

It depends on where you are.   Laws vary greatly from place to place.   I don't even know what the law is in California exactly and I don't care.  I use the ladies' room exclusively and I've never had a problem.  I'm just angry that my legal name/gender change hearing has to be in July in case I ever do have an issue.

It's scuzzy and illegal to spy on neighboring stalls.  It is not illegal to pee.  Both regardless of the sign on the door.

Now, I should note that you don't have to be doing anything wrong to be told to leave.  Property owners or tenants generally have authority to establish whatever rules they want for any or no reason - but the maximum punishment is being removed from the property.  Using that authority to discriminate against TG people is allowed unless they are specifically protected by anti-discrimination laws. 

Everyone is welcome to call the police, but the worst-case legal scenario is they escort you out and you're not allowed to come back.



Assuming nobody is bending the law, that is.  So let's look at what laws would be involved.

Under common-law tradition, nobody is supposed to "intrude upon seclusion" - attempt to gather private information when an ordinary "reasonable person" would expect it to be private and would be offended by the intrusion.  This is a tort, not a crime, which means the person whose privacy was violated may claim monetary reparation.

Additionally, many states make violation of privacy in private places a misdemeanor - Maine comes to my mind: hiding cameras in bathrooms earns you jail time.

Again, the crime would be violating privacy - observing things a stranger is not supposed to observe - the laws are not intended to enforce gender roles. 




And, finally, there's still the risk of verbal and physical violence used to enforce social norms.  This is illegal, potentially a felony, and the law's on your side for whatever that's worth.

I think the best thing to do for your safety is to search out local TG advocates and hear what the experiences are in your area as far as violence and mis-applied laws.

I've had problems in this department before a few times, but as long as you've got your carry letter with you you should have no problems.  It's a simple letter telling whoever that your a full time transsexual and that you're living this way and it gives you permission to use the ladies room.

I'm currently in a situation at work where I am fighting for the right to use the woman's room, I had been and I do have my carry letter, however I have had a complaint filed against me with HR and now am working on figuring out what the next step will be..

Quote from: Jill F on December 13, 2013, 01:47:31 PM
It depends on where you are.   Laws vary greatly from place to place.   I don't even know what the law is in California exactly and I don't care.  I use the ladies' room exclusively and I've never had a problem.  I'm just angry that my legal name/gender change hearing has to be in July in case I ever do have an issue.

Jill-

I have been worried about this as I wait for my carry letter to show up, so tonight I did some googling to see what I can find out about California law.

It seems that no current law explicitly spells out what is and isn't allowed as far as access to bathrooms; the closest thing that California has to a bathroom law for transgender people is AB 196 - the Gender Protection law. That law doesn't explicitly state who can use what bathroom, but with the other protections it specifies it would seem to follow that we should be allowed access to gender appropriate facilities. I guess that someone is going to have to get into trouble and will have to challenge this issue in count before we will get a clearer ruling.

I know in other states like Texas you can be arrested for simply entering a restroom that doesn't correspond with your birth sex.

So you have the right to bear arms but not to pee!

While Aussies can pee but not bear arms!

The world is an odd place!!

Quote from: Cindy on December 14, 2013, 12:58:44 AM
So you have the right to bear arms but not to pee!

While Aussies can pee but not bear arms!

The world is an odd place!!

It is indeed, I have KAT arms, better than bear arms any day, plus I can pee wherever I want.

Quote from: LordKAT on December 14, 2013, 01:02:33 AM
It is indeed, I have KAT arms, better than bear arms any day, plus I can pee wherever I want.

Typical another KAT that misses the kitty litter

The great outdoors is just one big sandbox.

Quote from: Penny Gurl on December 13, 2013, 09:26:58 PM
I'm currently in a situation at work where I am fighting for the right to use the woman's room, I had been and I do have my carry letter, however I have had a complaint filed against me with HR and now am working on figuring out what the next step will be..

Carry Letters are no Get Out of Jail Free cards. Most laws do not acknowledge nor recognize them.

There may be a few "Bathroom Nuts", as they have been called, that will scream bloody murder murder about whoever they think is a TG. But many laws are vague. As long as you are just going about your business, you're fine. The BR nuts however think you are only there to oogle or rape, at best. I was absolutely shocked both times I attended the Maryland Senate hearings for their TG rights bill.

Laws can vary from the city/municipal level through the county and finally state and federal. In Maryland cities, such as Baltimore, do have a TG rights law. Yet not the county it is in. However, Montgomery county and others do.

I think if a survey was taken (as well as our musings at the Senate hearings) you will find that just about everyone uses the toilet appropiate for their presentation with no problems, especially legal.

In the hospital we use each other's bathrooms if one is occupied or out of order

Quote from: Eva Marie on December 13, 2013, 10:48:34 PMI know in other states like Texas you can be arrested for simply entering a restroom that doesn't correspond with your birth sex.

Such laws are not only difficult to enforce, I suspect they are faulty to the core in regard to legal definition. In order to restrict someone by gender you must define gender. By purist definition gender is defined by your chromosomes. Every city has "women" walking into ladies rooms every day who happened to be born with the AIS condition, which means they superficially look exactly like women but are biologically males. I think a decent lawyer could take any such law apart in short order if it went to court by calling up the issue of definition.

I've always used the restroom that corresponded to the way I was dressed, and haven't had a problem. If there is an issue, you're a woman, simple as that, you can tell that to those who question you.

I don't recall any case ever anywhere of a trans woman facing any type of legal penalty for using a ladies' room. You gotta go somewhere, and I'm certainly not walking into the men's!

I can't speak from personal experience as I am not "out" in my community yet, but I know a number of trans friends  and their overall input to me has been that there will be no issue 9 times out of 10 in any decent neighborhood if you pass even just a little bit. As long as you mind your own business and do what you need to do, nobody will notice/care. In the one time out of ten where an issue arises it can be safer to use the ladies' room if you are presenting as female. Women are generally less likely to get physically confrontational, although they may be more likely to complain to site security or police. Of course, there are never any guarantees in any environment since people are so infinitely variable in their reactions.

Also, more and more venues are starting to have "family" restrooms (for parents with young children) that are single-stall and lockable, so that may be an option as well. You don't _have_ to have children to use one.

I'd suggest finding out what laws apply in your area, if any. Then just use your best judgement. Remember, you have a human right to pee _somewhere_.

Good luck.

In most jurisdictions there is no law that governs what restroom trans* people must use.  For that matter, in most jurisdictions there is no law requiring men to use the men's room or women to use the ladies room.

The lack of guidance on restroom use becomes a problem when applying anti-discrimination laws.  For example, does an employer discriminate on the basis of gender identity by requiring his transwoman employee to use the men's room?  In this forum, the answer is probably obviously yes.  But to a lot of people out there, that's not so clear.

A minority of jurisdictions (D.C. is an example) have regulations that spell this out and require that trans* people be allowed to use the restroom matching their gender identities.

Quote from: Cindy on December 14, 2013, 12:58:44 AM
So you have the right to bear arms but not to pee!

While Aussies can pee but not bear arms!

The world is an odd place!!

Yes, transgender people can definitely pack heat, including, in some states concealed weapons. VERY strange world.

--Jay

If you are in a mall, look for the family restrooms.  Or gender neutral restrooms.  That way you don't have to worry.

And it does depend on where you live.

Well once again, UK maybe a completely different world on this one, there again perhaps not that much. Well I've found some of the posts on this thread useful so far. One thing I do know is as I have just pointed out in another thread on bra's, is that I get confidence when I'm out by always showing cleavage. Using the Gents as we British call it just freaks out the guys within. Women seem to be much more tolerant and understanding so I have never had any problems.

One tip if your a UK trans person, that just got passed on to me by my health clinic, is to go to your tourist information who will sell you a key for the disabled toilet, which are unisex (UK has a system where disabled loos all have a standard lock). They ask for proof of disability, I found when I went in for mine, that the explanation that I was transgender, backed up by my physical appearance and the effect on the guys when I used the the male room, was enough. The lady just ran it passed her manager and I got my key.