Quote from: Violet Bloom on December 16, 2013, 11:03:17 PM
  I've waited soooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo long to hear those beautiful words... <sniffle>...  ...

<---passes out and falls off chair unconscious with shock--->

I'm not entirely responsible for what I may have posted last night. I was hopped up on oreos....

Quote from: Katie on December 16, 2013, 11:17:09 PM
Or note the small number of people with real photos of themselves for their avitars. That should be an indicator as well. Do you honestly think that someone with an avitar of a mutant animal or cartoon figure, or their legs is transitioning? Do you really think that these people  are speaking from experience, wisdom, or a realistic perspective?

I'm going to chime in on this specific point. Posting a picture of yourself (be it here or anywhere else on the net) is NOT an act of bravery. I've posted my own pic here and elsewhere. It was no big deal. Many people that post their pics on sites like these are looking for some kind of validation (nothing wrong with that in and of itself) but there is usually an ulterior motive behind it. Myself, I've posted my pic a few times and thought it was really boring (I don't care one bit about someone discovering that I am trans via the net. A few people have figured it out and I didn't care then and I don't care now.) so I would take them down and put up something that I thought was cool instead. (Such as Portia.)

Do I care if someone doesn't want to take me seriously because I choose to put up an avatar of a cartoon porcupine? Nope. Not one bit. Why should I care what anyone else thinks about anything I do or say?

It is a waste of energy to care about the opinions of other people if they decide to whine or gripe because of something you say or do (especially when that thing does no harm to anyone.)

Sometimes the appropriate response is not to say nothing, or sit there passively while some troll controls the discourse.  Sometimes the right thing to do is stand up for what you believe is right.  Sometimes people need to be called out or they'll keep behaving badly.

There is a right and wrong way to go about doing that obviously, and falling to the level of some troll is not the best usually.   But some people write things specifically to exasperate you, and when you lash out, they win, and you look like the jerk.  Some people can be very subtle about pushing hot buttons, but you'll know them by how when they show up to a thread drama and negativity follows next.  And then it makes it look like it is everybody in the thread freaking out on each other and it makes the whole community look toxic, when really it's just a few subtle trolls creating the chaos.

I am not annoyed with this community and I don't think most people here are negative in the least, but I am really tired of certain people turning this place into poison.  Especially considering the whole point of this site, and the actual danger many of the people first coming here are in.  I am on the verge of exasperation, tbh, and good things won't come out of it.   Idk what comes next.   Maybe just taking a break for a while would be best, rather than unleashing my fury lol.

  I agree that some people are hiding behind cartoon avatars and the like.  We also can probably never know how many members left without successfully pursuing their transition aspirations.  When I was in a local therapy group you could tell there were a few people who likely would never have the courage to follow through.  But I can only speak for myself:

  It is very unlikely I will ever post a real photo of me whether or not it be an avatar.  This has absolutely nothing to do with lying to myself or others or the supposed success of my transition progress.  It is solely a matter of privacy seeing as I've used this forum like a personal therapist and revealed painful and intimate personal details that I would never want connected to my public identity locally.  No one should have to walk around wearing their darkest secrets or sexual habits like a sandwich board just so they can say "I've made it".  For the record I have not posted one single image anywhere on the internet ever that could tie my legal name to my face and I've maintained this practice intentionally since long before the idea of gender transition came up in my life.  If someone knew where to look they could find a few photos of me in male mode but not one of these could allow a stranger to put a name to my face.  It would also be impossible to put my rather uncommon legal name into a Google search and get photographic results.

  In the interest of cheering myself up (and others here) I've gone to great lengths to find avatar images that are unique, bold, fun and illustrative of major character traits.  I never felt that it should have to be a real-life photo of me in order to prove anything to anyone.  I could also have posted anthropomorphic animal cartoons as many other members do because I have some attachment to the Furry community and another personal identity as such - But does anyone think this would have been relevant to my presence here or helped me be taken more seriously?  I highly doubt it.  I've had enough trouble being marginalized in real life being labeled a 'geek' for my perfectly normal hobbies and interests so I don't talk much about those either.

  My personal comfort with my transition and new identity came from gaining the courage to present myself female, not always very well, in front of live people in my city.  It took longer to do this in front of strangers than it did to do it to my mother.  Although I'm not out full-time yet I can walk the streets truly at peace now when presenting female and my transition is far from complete.  I haven't even done any voice training yet but I've shopped frequently now and interacted with many service people.  My success came from finding the comfort to be an 'unfinished product' and not being at all worried about it.  Now I know my life can only get better from here-on as my appearance continues to improve.

  In the end I feel the best thing that will help me to just be 'another body on the street' in the public eye is to distance myself from my history and the gory details of it.  I don't care so much if someone knows I'm trans but because I don't think it's all that important for them to know I'd rather be seen as "Me".

Quote from: Jen on December 17, 2013, 11:20:11 AM
Sometimes the appropriate response is not to say nothing, or sit there passively while some troll controls the discorse.  Sometimes the right thing to do is stand up for what you believe is right.  Sometimes people need to be called out or they'll keep behaving badly.

There is a right and wrong way to go about doing that obviously, and falling to the level of some troll is not the best usually.   But some people write things specifically to exasperate you, and when you lash out, they win, and you look like the jerk.  Some people can be very subtle about pushing hot buttons, but you'll know them by how when they show up to a thread drama and negativity follows next.  And then it makes it look like it is everybody in the thread freaking out on each other and it makes the whole community look toxic, when really it's just a few subtle trolls creating the chaos.

I am not annoyed with this community and I don't think most people here are negative in the least, but I am really tired of certain people turning this place into poison.  Especially considering the whole point of this site, and the actual danger many of the people first coming here are in.  I am on the verge of exasperation, tbh, and good things won't come out of it.   Idk what comes next.   Maybe just taking a break for a while would be best, rather than unleashing my fury lol.

That's right. Trolls offer the bait, but we don't have to take it.

Quote from: Jen on December 17, 2013, 11:20:11 AM
There is a right and wrong way to go about doing that obviously, and falling to the level of some troll is not the best usually.   But some people write things specifically to exasperate you, and when you lash out, they win, and you look like the jerk.

Nah..I disagree. The people that tell off the trolls aren't the jerks. The jerks are the trolls and always will be the trolls. Think about the mentality of some loser sitting behind their computer laughing at their moronic attempts at provoking people. Anyone that does that is worthless. You only get one shot on this goofy blue ball and they want to waste it being a schmuck on the internet? Hey, knock yourself out. Those people do not win when people tell them where to go. They remain the pathetic losers that they are until the end. That isn't something I would classify as "winning".

Quote from: Katie on December 16, 2013, 11:17:09 PM
Perhaps the reason you dont see so much positivity here is because most of the women that decide to move forward dont have time to mess around with non essential activities like the internet. Sometimes I think people use the internet to live thier dreams in a virtual world. I mean think of it, this is the transsexual zone and do you see some of the posts here? Many are like totally not relevant to the topic.

Or note the small number of people with real photos of themselves for their avitars. That should be an indicator as well. Do you honestly think that someone with an avitar of a mutant animal or cartoon figure, or their legs is transitioning? Do you really think that these people  are speaking from experience, wisdom, or a realistic perspective?

Maybe I am just being cynical and a negative nanny because I cant take cartoon characters seriously, LOL.

So to reiterate the world is filled with those that do and those that dont, and I suspect there is a LOT more dont's here than do's.

Katie

Perhaps most women who transition don't use support sites. Perhaps most women who transition successfully don't feel the need for a support site any longer. Perhaps most of the women who transition want to get past that part of their lives and feel the less of a connection to the trans world, the less trans they are. There are many reasons that most of the people on a support site may be seeking support or input, and you choose one of the most condescending to cement your points. I don't understand the motive for this.

I use a photo of a "cartoon" as my avatar because not only do I relate to the character portrayed, but I'm attractive as an effeminate male and unpassable (and therefore ugly) as a woman. Yes, it makes me grossly uncomfortable. No, I'm not ashamed to admit it -- but I am still offended that you would imply it makes me somehow a coward or that I'm less "real" in some fashion, because it is exactly that line of thinking that seeks to define my feelings and makes it so awful of an issue in the first place. The pushing and prodding and stressing and demanding. Throwing a sick duckling into the water harvests no less guilt than keeping it locked up.

As for experience, wisdom, a realistic perspective? I am out to literally everyone I know. None of them think of me as manly. The majority of them treat me as female. I am deeply educated on the topic. I have lost friends and family. I find romance inaccessible because I am trapped between worlds and because I still need to meet my own needs. I feel the absurdly deafening pressure of finances for transition every single day. I save over 90% of my income to meet the strength of my needs. And finally, I am widely known among the people who are familiar with me for being a wise and supportive person with very keen perception on a multitude of the world's facets. I don't need makeup, flats, blouses, and the one-off female pronoun from strangers to give me experience, wisdom, and a realistic perspective.

I'm sure many of the other women here have their own story. None of them are invalid. Everyone has the right to adjust the steps in their life according to their own needs, and judging or condescending upon some of those people for being slower or more cautious is not helpful in any way.

Quote from: Miss_Bungle1991 on December 17, 2013, 11:27:33 AM
Nah..I disagree. The people that tell off the trolls aren't the jerks. The jerks are the trolls and always will be the trolls. Think about the mentality of some loser sitting behind their computer laughing at their moronic attempts at provoking people. Anyone that does that is worthless. You only get one shot on this goofy blue ball and they want to waste it being a schmuck on the internet? Hey, knock yourself out. Those people do not win when people tell them where to go. They remain the pathetic losers that they are until the end. That isn't something I would classify as "winning".

I agree with this, but I don't think anyone in this thread was trolling. The progenitor of this thread's tension, Katie, was probably frustrated or bitter in some way. I don't think that makes her statements fair, as my post above details, but I don't think she was posting out of a single need to provoke others.

I do feel that when someone posts something negative, it is best not to ignore them. This site is partially a learning experience. Other people in a bitter state, or who are on the fence about a topic, may adopt the same thoughts upon reading relevant material. If no one provides a counter-argumentation or another point of view, there is no nudging from the other end. Part of education is battling obfuscation.

  I'm going to sum up a lot of what's been said in one simple statement - "My face reveals absolutely nothing about my character."  If you want to know about me, my avatars alone are worth a thousand words.

Quote from: Jen on December 17, 2013, 11:42:20 AM
What comes out of you reveals what is inside of you.

Mostly guts...and black stuff...and about 50 Slim Jims.

Quote from: Sybil on December 17, 2013, 11:36:20 AM
I agree with this, but I don't think anyone in this thread was trolling. The progenitor of this thread's tension, Katie, was probably frustrated or bitter in some way. I don't think that makes her statements fair, as my post above details, but I don't think she was posting out of a single need to provoke others.

I'm not so sure about that given the tone of some of their other posts...but, whatever.

I've posted here off and on for several years, just as Northern Jane and several other senior post-op people have done. We do it for the sake of others to pay it forward and to see what's new and shaking in the trans community. Though we have real lives beyond Susan's place we recognize that transition doesn't cease at SRS any more than does growth and development of a person cease at age 21.
I enjoy encouraging others, sharing experiences and thoughts on various subjects that can be positive and uplifting for them, there are times when we can save someone from making the same mistakes that we once made. I have no problems with people who prefer to use a cartoon as an avatar, after all some people require anonymity for various personal and business reasons just as I prefer to not show much of my face either. I rankle when someone makes disparaging remarks to others who may not be as far along as they, or to someone who opts out of what they themselves feel is a quintessentially female defining surgical procedure. One cannot possibly expect others to buy into their mindset for the sake of their own self validation, we're all uniquely different individuals, each deserving respect.

the only reason I post my picture is that I'm at a stage in my life that I really don't care what some one that might see me on this site and knows me thinks. It just doesn't phase me one way or the other. Every body's got their own way they live their life. I wouldn't put a picture of my breasts up though.

I am not out and proud to everybody in the world and that is why when I put a pic of myself up I take it back down in a short time.  I am willing to accept the risk of putting it up, but I am definitely going to mitigate that risk best I can.

Quote from: Katie on December 16, 2013, 11:17:09 PM
Perhaps the reason you dont see so much positivity here is because most of the women that decide to move forward dont have time to mess around with non essential activities like the internet. Sometimes I think people use the internet to live thier dreams in a virtual world. I mean think of it, this is the transsexual zone and do you see some of the posts here? Many are like totally not relevant to the topic.

Or note the small number of people with real photos of themselves for their avitars. That should be an indicator as well. Do you honestly think that someone with an avitar of a mutant animal or cartoon figure, or their legs is transitioning? Do you really think that these people  are speaking from experience, wisdom, or a realistic perspective?

Maybe I am just being cynical and a negative nanny because I cant take cartoon characters seriously, LOL.

So to reiterate the world is filled with those that do and those that dont, and I suspect there is a LOT more dont's here than do's.

Katie

I would like to respond to this as someone who uses a cartoon character in my avatar. I use a cartoon avatar because I have a hard time showing my face.  One, for security reasons and for the desire to go stealth one day.  Two, for insecurity reasons about my appearance.  Transitioning doesn't happen overnight.  I've put a lot of time and effort in this too realize that things will take time.  Honestly, I don't feel I'm fully passing at the moment.  Yeah, I have a more androgynous appearance, but I'm not fully happy with how I currently look.  And I can probably can pass in other peoples eyes as I've been told that by enough people, but I have major insecurities.  Putting up a photo of myself would make me feel bad in one of the few safe places I have.  I'll admit that I'm still a work in progress, but things have improved since I have started and I feel confident that I will get to where I want to be (and I'm considering a nose job because that's my big facial issue).  Other than that, I think I will be fine as I continue with laser and keep experimenting with my brows and hair.  Nonetheless, I've been nothing but honest since I have been here about my experience.  Just because I haven't shown my face doesn't mean I am not transitioning or have no experience with it.  It just takes time and effort to make the steps.  My transition started in June and it's been a work in progress since.  Though, I admit I could be more courageous and go faster than I have, but I'm getting there either way.

I respect you Katie, I do, but try to remember what things were like in the beginning of your transition.  That's where many of us are right now. 

Joanna,

It's true that we can be a pessimistic bunch.  What I will say is that many of my fears about moving foward have been overblown and unrealistic.  Most of it has been easy once I got over the fear aspect of it.  To be honest, that's been the hardest part so far because I build up major fears that have no basis in reality.  Besides dealing with my mother, most of it has been easy. So, I think you are right that we could be more positive. Still, I think it's okay to share the negative.  I'd like to think my negative stories will help other people starting their transition one day when they see that I made it through and succeeded.  It's the goal at least, lol.  I mean, I look at many of the negative stories of those who have fully transitioned before me and get strength from them.  One day I would like to do the same for others, especially the younger ones because tend to be a more insecure group with less financial resources.  It's kind of a daunting thing to undertake when your adult life is just start of beginning, at least, that's what I felt/ feel.  Therefore, I feel there is something positive to gain even from negativity. 

Quote from: Miss_Bungle1991 on December 17, 2013, 11:08:03 AM
Do I care if someone doesn't want to take me seriously because I choose to put up an avatar of a cartoon porcupine? Nope. Not one bit. Why should I care what anyone else thinks about anything I do or say?

Some of us take others more seriously because of their porcupine cartoon avatars!

I think the main reason why there is so much negativity is because for the most part, that's all most of us have at that very moment is negativity in nearly every direction in their life. I can look back at my older posts and that's just about all I had until things started moving forward for myself. I was very active early on looking for support when I had just about none.

I find it ludicrous to think/believe that a person isn't transitioning because they don't have a picture of themselves as their avatar or that if they do then they are on some kind of pedestal above all others . Quite frankly it has troll written all over it, especially given previous posts that I've read from that poster. People choose their avatar for many different reasons, some are out full time and don't care that their picture is on the internet, some are part time, some are still in the closet, some are still trying to figure themselves out, or they like a particular character from a show...ect. It's all up to that person and that's one thing that I can say as I honestly don't use that as the deciding factor on whether or not I'll take their advise or not. I look at what they say and that shows me their character and if they are worthy of being listened to.   

  I'd prefer to continue coming out to people on my own terms rather than being outed.  Having not received a single nasty look in public that I could detect I have no way of knowing whether or not I pass and to how many people.  If my identity preceded me you can bet this would have turned out differently and for the worse.  Prejudice can at least be contained sometimes if someone doesn't know in advance you're trans.

Quote from: kabit on December 17, 2013, 12:08:06 PM
Some of us take others more seriously because of their porcupine cartoon avatars!

+1!  My point exactly.  Our sense of humor can be just as mysterious to some as our gender identities.

Quote from: Violet Bloom on December 17, 2013, 12:11:14 PM
  I'd prefer to continue coming out to people on my own terms rather than being outed.  Having not received a single nasty look in public that I could detect I have no way of knowing whether or not I pass and to how many people.  If my identity preceded me you can bet this would have turned out differently and for the worse.  Prejudice can at least be contained sometimes if someone doesn't know in advance you're trans.

+1!  My point exactly.  Our sense of humor can be just as mysterious to some as our gender identities.

<off topic>
Yes! My sense of humor hasn't changed, though I'm much less open to humor about certain subjects (you know... misogyny). Coming out to my bosses (today), we were definitely joking about it. It was fun, and that one hour of talking might have been my very best hour in recent memory.

Quote from: kabit on December 17, 2013, 12:14:16 PM
<off topic>
Yes! My sense of humor hasn't changed, though I'm much less open to humor about certain subjects (you know... misogyny). Coming out to my bosses (today), we were definitely joking about it. It was fun, and that one hour of talking might have been my very best hour in recent memory.

That's good to hear.

Quote from: kabit on December 17, 2013, 12:08:06 PM
Some of us take others more seriously because of their porcupine cartoon avatars!

Okay...fine.

So, where is the Ryo-Ohki avatar?

Hmmmm?

Quote from: Miss_Bungle1991 on December 17, 2013, 12:28:45 PM
Okay...fine.

So, where is the Ryo-Ohki avatar?

Hmmmm?

Miss_Bungle, have you been hanging around with that prickly little porcupine too long dear?