This topic bothers me because some of my close aquaintances are very comfortable, and live unique lives as pangender, or gender fluid.  And I routinely visit with at least a dozen wonderful pre-hrt individuals in the SF bay area who may never be able to overcome their social and emotional fears of transition.  I worry for some of those individuals, and I'm happy and proud to be included under their umbrella.  So I use the term Transgender freely to explain why I stand in a larger group with those friends. 

However, I personally identify as Transsexual, and I use that term to explain my current life path.  I'm not sure what term will be comfortable for me in a post op world.  But I damn well don't want people judging me on a description, or demeaning me for making a descriptive choice.  After all I had only one choice when I started transition, and that was life or death.  I chose to live, and so don't tell me what to call myself, or what terms my friends should use.

It's that simple for me girls.  I'm sorry to vent on this.
K

I often use "Trans" in conversation with cis folks.

It is more of a blanket term, less specific, but it doesn't plant sex or gender in the mind. Gender is preferable to sexual, but it still seems to plant genitals in the mind of a person who hears the term.

I actually prefer the word when talking about my condition. I don't feel like the term transsexual completely fits my situation. Sure, I've transitioned and am legally male and all that, but I kept my genitals so I don't feel I have really 'trans-ed my sex'. I'm more of a hybrid now (no offense to anyone in a similar situation who doesn't feel that way). I think the term transsexual puts images of genital surgery in people's minds and that's not accurate in my case.

That said, it's not like I wear the term transgender. I just use it when talking about my condition. I really don't see the point in dropping the term or the term 'transsexual' if that fits someone best. People say 'I'm not trans, I'm a woman' or 'I'm not trans, I'm a man'. Well, of course you are. So am I. The two aren't mutually exclusive. No one's saying one has to describe themselves as a trans man or woman. But to be honest, whenever someone who has transitioned vehemently insists that they are 'not trans OMG', it gives off an air of poor self-acceptance. Yes, you are 'just a man' or 'just a woman' but if you have transitioned, you are also trans. Doesn't mean you have to wear the label.

Quote from: Mogu on December 19, 2013, 07:15:18 AM
Huh. Homosexual, heterosexual, bisexual, pansexual etc. are all descriptive scientific terms. I think.

I assume the same with transgender. I mean, what else do I use? I mean, I assume that transgender means having a psychological gender different from the bodily gender, at least at birth.

Ah but that's where it actually gets a little tricky because you see it doesn't always completely mean that.

For one reason, someone decided to try to include intersex people - now we don't necessarily have a "problem with our gender", its just that by and large we see ourselves as being free to as it were pick and mix... seeing as how that's kind of how biology made us.

Add to that the people who like me were not only intersex, but had accepting families who were cool with our exploration and I can honestly say that although my gender and physical sex has altered since birth I have never had a problem with it because it just all happened quite easily... and so at any given time I was in a comfortable place, albeit not always the same place...

Now I eventually settled down as female after starting androgynous, then growing up mostly female, back to androgyny, then trying being male, back to androgyny, and then finally following genital surgery permanently back to female... some people however never settle down, and good luck to them. It doesn't follow that are unhappy with their gender.

So in fact you've just very neatly demonstrated my point. The term is now so diverse that almost anything you could assume might be a defining feature will have some members of the group who don't exhibit that characteristic. Whereas for example all bisexual people (and I am one) have the ability to be attracted to men and/or women. So that group easily and tightly defined.

I've now lived for over 90% of my life as a female of one sort or another, and at all times I have been comfortable with where I was at - so to me my experience fits best as a kind of "special case" of cis - but technically simply the fact that I have divergent chromosomes from my phenotype would, in the eyes of some, force me into the transgender label. My point is simply that whilst I accept that is what some would contend, I don't think it fits, and I'm sure there are others who feel similarly for other equally valid reasons.

Thus my thesis is that while there is absolutely nothing wrong with any form of gender expression or divergence, we need a few terms which are more tightly defined. Even diabetes, which Cindy mentioned as an example of a valid medical label, has two variants, type 1 and a type 2...

And to pick up FA's comment which was posted while I wrote... just because one doesn't feel that the label is helpful does not always mean rejection - sometimes a cake is just a cake... in other words sometimes its genuinely just means that the label does not helpfully describe the process by which we got to where-ever we are, no more.

Quote from: Doctorwho? on December 19, 2013, 12:20:28 PM

And to pick up FA's comment which was posted while I wrote... just because one doesn't feel that the label is helpful does not always mean rejection - sometimes a cake is just a cake... in other words sometimes its genuinely just means that the label does not helpfully describe the process by which we got to where-ever we are, no more.

That comment wasn't directed at anyone or any post in particular. I just wanted to point out that there is a difference between 'identifying' as something and denying it. There's also a difference between saying 'I don't feel like that term adequately describes my situation' and 'I'm Not Trans ZOMG'. Not saying you or anyone in this thread was necessarily saying that.

Good point, OC.

Just to chime in, I believe labeling yourself as homosexual, bisexual, transgender, etc is for your own sake, for your own convenience. For me a label is something that is just handy to have depending on the situation. I personally label myself as queer as it can best describe my gender and sexuality but I only use that within the community and those who know me best. Depending on the context will depend on what I say. One moment I'll say I'm queer or transgender, btw I don't really consider myself part of the gender binary, and the next to a different group I'll just say I'm a woman. I just think labels should just really be used lightly and for convenience.

The issue I am dealing with is less about gender than my sex/body/being and that is why I don't like using the term for myself.  If simply being feminine was all I had to do to be comfortable and feel authentic, my life would be 100% simpler.

I also don't like the term transsexual though because it implies it has something to do with sexuality.  If I have to use an adjective to describe this part of my history it would just simply be trans, as in "trans woman," with the space, like you would with other adjectives, e.g., white woman or tall woman.  It's a convenient shortcut for some conversations, but I usually do just prefer not talking about it with the outside world though.

I thank everybody I think I understand better

Quote from: Orange Creamsicle on December 19, 2013, 02:13:16 PM
Just grasping at straws or playing devils advocate here but someone could identify as bisexual and not be attracted to men.  Bi just implies 2, not specifically that the 2 are male and female.  Any two genders could be implied.

I'm not sure if this is in response to my point or not, but if so, I don't think sexual orientation makes a good comparison. Someone going through a transition (physically and legally) to a sex or gender opposite to what they were assigned at birth and then denying they are trans is a lot different to someone talking about sexual orientation. There's a physical, tangible difference there. Someone who was assigned a different sex at birth who once possessed the genitals and other physical characteristics of that sex and physically and legally transitioned to another sex/gender and then making the statement that they are NOT trans* - is more in line with denying other physical traits than behaviors or internal attractions such as sex orientation.

Someone who went through physical and legal transition like the rest of us actively and vehemently denying they are trans to other trans people is more akin to denying one's race to other members of that race.

Ok - all my ancestors are European and my skin is lily white, whiter than this copy paper next to me. I burn quickly in the sun and have a very hard time getting a tan. In the sun my skin sparkles like white marble. But I'm going to go in a space with a bunch of white people and declare that I'm not white. I have this burning need for all these other white people to know I'm NOT white. I am NOT like them.

I may cite the fact that my grandfather came from the Ukraine and at the time it was part of the USSR and so, I am not completely European. See? I'm not white. Or perhaps I have a very distant ancestor from Ethiopia (I don't but for argument's sake). See? I'm not white even though my skin is very much white and I look like the rest of you, I need to make the point while I'm with you that I am NOT white and NOT one of you.

Or I may count the fact that I grew up poor and in an inner city neighborhood (not entirely true, but again for argument's sake) as 'proof' that I did not have the same experiences as other white people and so this means I am not white.

This is the kind of thing I hear when a trans person comes on here trying to make it very clear they are not one of us.

Nobody 'identifies' as white. Have you ever heard someone identifying as white? No one lets 'being white' define them. And yet, how ludicrous would it be for a blond, blue-eyed, lily white person with all white European ancestors to deny it? There is a big difference between letting a personal characteristic define you and actively denying it to other persons sharing that characteristic.

Oh wait - my folks let me wear pants and pretend I was a boy as a child and well after transition (after hitting middle age) I was diagnosed with a very minor intersex condition - so all you poor trans folks need to know that I am NOT one of you. Even though I went through a female puberty (and even though my physical appearance shows clear signs of having gone through it) and had the same surgeries and hormone treatments you had and was assigned the wrong sex at birth and everything I am not one of you! I am cis! I am 'NON_TG!'

Thank you for that, FA. I pretty much feel the same way. And I have known at least one person that denied being white... it was rather annoying. >_>

Quote from: FA on December 19, 2013, 04:30:22 PM
I'm not sure if this is in response to my point or not, but if so, I don't think sexual orientation makes a good comparison. Someone going through a transition (physically and legally) to a sex or gender opposite to what they were assigned at birth and then denying they are trans is a lot different to someone talking about sexual orientation. There's a physical, tangible difference there. Someone who was assigned a different sex at birth who once possessed the genitals and other physical characteristics of that sex and physically and legally transitioned to another sex/gender and then making the statement that they are NOT trans* - is more in line with denying other physical traits than behaviors or internal attractions such as sex orientation.

Someone who went through physical and legal transition like the rest of us actively and vehemently denying they are trans to other trans people is more akin to denying one's race to other members of that race.

Ok - all my ancestors are European and my skin is lily white, whiter than this copy paper next to me. I burn quickly in the sun and have a very hard time getting a tan. In the sun my skin sparkles like white marble. But I'm going to go in a space with a bunch of white people and declare that I'm not white. I have this burning need for all these other white people to know I'm NOT white. I am NOT like them.

I may cite the fact that my grandfather came from the Ukraine and at the time it was part of the USSR and so, I am not completely European. See? I'm not white. Or perhaps I have a very distant ancestor from Ethiopia (I don't but for argument's sake). See? I'm not white even though my skin is very much white and I look like the rest of you, I need to make the point while I'm with you that I am NOT white and NOT one of you.

Or I may count the fact that I grew up poor and in an inner city neighborhood (not entirely true, but again for argument's sake) as 'proof' that I did not have the same experiences as other white people and so this means I am not white.

This is the kind of thing I hear when a trans person comes on here trying to make it very clear they are not one of us.

Nobody 'identifies' as white. Have you ever heard someone identifying as white? No one lets 'being white' define them. And yet, how ludicrous would it be for a blond, blue-eyed, lily white person with all white European ancestors to deny it? There is a big difference between letting a personal characteristic define you and actively denying it to other persons sharing that characteristic.

Oh wait - my folks let me wear pants and pretend I was a boy as a child and well after transition (after hitting middle age) I was diagnosed with a very minor intersex condition - so all you poor trans folks need to know that I am NOT one of you. Even though I went through a female puberty (and even though my physical appearance shows clear signs of having gone through it) and had the same surgeries and hormone treatments you had and was assigned the wrong sex at birth and everything I am not one of you! I am cis! I am 'NON_TG!'

I don't mean to speak for anybody, and i might get this wrong, but I think the 'I'm not trans' thing comes from the idea that they feel the prefix trans (which means go across or something like that) doesn't apply to them anymore because they have finished crossing over.

I guess that is one way to look at it, for me though, tense doesn't matter.  If you ever had to cross, or if you will one day get there, or if you feel like you should but don't know if you can—past present, future– if crossing over the gender/sex divide is part of your situation,"trans" applies to you.  Just my opinion though, people can call themselves whatever they want as far as I'm concerned.

When somebody feels like they are better than you because of whatever specific category they fall into, that is just their tendency toward tribalism speaking.  Tribalism is wired into our dna, it causes so many problems, and I kind of hate it, but it is part of our nature.  Sometimes, though, people just come across like they think they are better than you, but don't actually feel superior.  That is where we need to mind our words and be careful how we phrase things, also for the listener, try not to project your insecurities on what somebody else says.  Look for context and try to actually understand the meaning of the message.

Quote from: Jen on December 19, 2013, 05:00:14 PM
I don't mean to speak for anybody, and i might get this wrong, but I think the 'I'm not trans' thing comes from the idea that they feel the prefix trans (which means go across or something like that) doesn't apply to them anymore because they have finished crossing over.

I guess that is one way to look at it, for me though, tense doesn't matter.  If you ever had to cross, or if you will one day get there, or if you feel like you should but don't know if you can—past present, future– if crossing over the gender/sex divide is part of your situation,"trans" applies to you.  Just my opinion though, people can call themselves whatever they want as far as I'm concerned.

When somebody feels like they are better than you because of whatever specific category they fall into, that is just their tendency toward tribalism speaking.  Tribalism is wired into our dna, it causes so many problems, and I kind of hate it, but it is part of our nature.  Sometimes, though, people just come across like they think they are better than you, but don't actually feel superior.  That is where we need to mind our words and be careful how we phrase things, also for the listener, try not to project your insecurities on what somebody else says.  Look for context and try to actually understand the meaning of the message.

I'm not against anyone wanting to leave the past (and the term) behind. But like I said, there is a difference between not letting a label define you and actively denying a label which is a physical fact.

*I'm not talking about people who are stealth refusing to tell, wanting privacy, etc, but people who have gone through transition denying they are trans in trans spaces .

Gotcha

Quote from: Ashey on December 19, 2013, 04:48:44 PM
Thank you for that, FA. I pretty much feel the same way. And I have known at least one person that denied being white... it was rather annoying. >_>

I'm not sure if the "white" thing is a dig at my earlier post where I said I don't like being called white. I'm not denying my European ancestry. I'm proud of it. My ancestors came from north western Europe, and have we have rich cultural traditions. Being called "white" is a term that lumps a truly enormous portion of human kind together for no reason or purpose other than lazy simplicity. Its like taking the peoples of Mongolia, China, India, Japan, Korea, Indonesia, Laos, Thailand etc and saying they're all "yellow" We don't do that, because it is stupid and offensive.

Its offensive because its unreasonable to lump all of those cultures, histories, languages together with a contrived label of "sameness"
Its offensive because its a term that is being applied by others, to lump a group together that occasionally bare passing similarities.
Its offensive because it denies an individuals right to their individuality.

Quote from: Isabelle on December 19, 2013, 05:27:08 PM

Quote from: Ashey on December 19, 2013, 04:48:44 PM
Thank you for that, FA. I pretty much feel the same way. And I have known at least one person that denied being white... it was rather annoying. >_>

I'm not sure if the "white" thing is a dig at my earlier post where I said I don't like being called white. I'm not denying my European ancestry. I'm proud of it. My ancestors came from north western Europe, and have we have rich cultural traditions. Being called "white" is a term that lumps a truly enormous portion of human kind together for no reason or purpose other than lazy simplicity. Its like taking the peoples of Mongolia, China, India, Japan, Korea, Indonesia, Laos, Thailand etc and saying they're all "yellow" We don't do that, because it is stupid and offensive.

Not at all hon. I didn't even see that post. 

Quote from: FA on December 19, 2013, 05:14:37 PM
there is a difference between not letting a label define you and actively denying a label which is a physical fact.

The problem -ro at least my problem- is that the labels do not make sense at all...


transgender is an umbrella term for so many life-styles, and so I refuse to label myself with it..

transsexual is an old medical term that is well... incorrect.... unless we are referring to the brain..get my drift?

so that leaves me with the old GID which is a diagnosis... should I define myself as : "Hi, I am Peky, I have GID" ?

So, that just lives me with the "I am a female, period." I define myself as just miss-gendered!

Quote from: peky on December 19, 2013, 05:30:58 PM

Quote from: FA on December 19, 2013, 05:14:37 PM
there is a difference between not letting a label define you and actively denying a label which is a physical fact.

The problem -ro at least my problem- is that the labels do not make sense at all...


transgender is an umbrella term for so many life-styles, and so I refuse to label myself with it..

transsexual is an old medical term that is well... incorrect.... unless we are referring to the brain..get my drift?

so that leaves me with the old GID which is a diagnosis... should I define myself as : "Hi, I am Peky, I have GID" ?

So, that just lives me with the "I am a female, period." I define myself as just miss-gendered!

I'm more getting at the fact that there's a difference between not identifying as trans (not letting or feeling like the term defines you or your situation) and actively denying and proclaiming one is not 'one of us' to other trans people.

Quote from: Jen on December 19, 2013, 05:00:14 PM
I don't mean to speak for anybody, and i might get this wrong, but I think the 'I'm not trans' thing comes from the idea that they feel the prefix trans (which means go across or something like that) doesn't apply to them anymore because they have finished crossing over.

I guess that is one way to look at it, for me though, tense doesn't matter.  If you ever had to cross, or if you will one day get there, or if you feel like you should but don't know if you can—past present, future– if crossing over the gender/sex divide is part of your situation,"trans" applies to you.  Just my opinion though, people can call themselves whatever they want as far as I'm concerned.

When somebody feels like they are better than you because of whatever specific category they fall into, that is just their tendency toward tribalism speaking.  Tribalism is wired into our dna, it causes so many problems, and I kind of hate it, but it is part of our nature.  Sometimes, though, people just come across like they think they are better than you, but don't actually feel superior.  That is where we need to mind our words and be careful how we phrase things, also for the listener, try not to project your insecurities on what somebody else says.  Look for context and try to actually understand the meaning of the message.

This ^^ particularly the last bit... For example my refusal of the label has everything to do with the context on my life. I'm working in a scientific and clinical context where its important to get as precise a diagnosis as possible, and so general catch all terms just won't do. I need greater precision... So its certainly not a case of any sort of superiority, rather a search for language which accurately and clearly conveys my experience of life.

Oh and I don't deny having changed my physical sex, but again the idea of transition doesn't seem to cover the experience very well... I would describe my life experience as more of a gender evolution...

Ultimately the only things which really changed were my genitalia (and they aren't really anyone's business but me and my lovers,) and my visual style. As far as my "gender," as in the soft presentation of my personality, is concerned I don't think that really changed all that much if at all.

I kind of evolved it, emphasizing different aspects of myself, as I moved through the various phases of my life, but the fundamentals have always remained the same. I was playing around in a very small notional space which exists between total androgyny, a soft and sensitive man, and a practical down to earth woman... They really are only different shades of the same thing. To use a colour analogy one is blueish purple, one is and purple purple and the other is pinkish purple - but they are all purple!!

Now forgive me but this seems to me to be at least qualitatively different from someone who, for example transitions from blue all the way to pink, if you get my drift...

Anyway I think we are all more or less on the same page here...

QuoteSometimes, though, people just come across like they think they are better than you, but don't actually feel superior.  That is where we need to mind our words and be careful how we phrase things, also for the listener, try not to project your insecurities on what somebody else says.  Look for context and try to actually understand the meaning of the message.

That is very well put. People on this site seem to love to get their knickers in a twist...

Transsexual itself is an umbrella term.

there's primary and secondary Transsexuals
There's Pre-ops, Post-ops, Non-ops etc
Child transitioners, teen transitioners, early transtitioners, late transitioners etc
All of these terms describe unique experiences. We have different words for these things, because they mean different things.
I simply feel that umbrella fits my experience better than the much more broad "transgender" umbrella

I'm a woman with a transsexual past.