My sympathy for victims doesn't enter into it. They sentence innocents to death, whether that is an accident or not, and that is unacceptable.

If your definition of murder is that of the judicial system in this country, it's based upon premeditation.

Sentencing a person to death is certainly a premeditated act.

It's simple.

"They sentence innocents to death" is a powerful statement.  Whilst this may be true in some instances, innocent people die daily at the hands of murderers, wars, terrorists.  I think the US wastes the citizen's tax dollars in keeping mass murderers alive.  Once a sentence has been given, they should execute them straight away not twenty or thirty years after the sentence was conducted.
It's simple.

I do not believe in the immediate execution. There are appeals set up for a reason and without them then those few who have been found innocent would have been unjustly dealt with in the end.

For the 120 (ACLU says 123) I would like to see a complete breakdown of age, gender, ethnicity, crime committed and the date, evidence presented, and why the reversal.

Quote from: Jeannette on July 24, 2007, 05:45:24 PM
You don't feel sorry for the people that were brutally murdered? They don't sentence people to death who "accidentally" kill people. Those that are sentenced thought about it, and in many cases took great pleasure in killing their victims. For some, death for the guilty is the only way to gain closure for the murder of their loved one.  Those that kill take no regard for their victims lives, why should they get any pity?
We don't have death penalty in France but I strongly support it.

Jesus never said to forgive is to kill. (I'm not a Christian. I do respect his teachings, though)

    It is wrong to kill any person for any reason except for immediate self defense or to prevent another person from being harmed. and I'm not leaving that statement open ended for some to say - "but we prevent them from harming others in the future by killing them.
    If you have someone in custody and are capable of killing them, then you're just as capable of holding them for all eternity if necessary.

    Every single person who sentences another person to die, and every single person who walks them to their death, and every single person who manages the killing, and every single person who watches without protest; is complicit in a capital crime.

   Don't forget,  I say this with love.   


Posted on: July 24, 2007, 07:02:16 PM

---

Quote from: Jeannette on July 24, 2007, 05:45:24 PM
You don't feel sorry for the people that were brutally murdered? They don't sentence people to death who "accidentally" kill people. Those that are sentenced thought about it, and in many cases took great pleasure in killing their victims. For some, death for the guilty is the only way to gain closure for the murder of their loved one. Those that kill take no regard for their victims lives, why should they get any pity?
We don't have death penalty in France but I strongly support it.

   I almost forgot.

   Blue - If someone has to have someone killed in order to gain closure, they are thinking of the murderer and not their loved one.

   Red - If we can't show pity for the worst of us, then, what is it for?

again.   said with Love 


I am not judging anyone. I chose Jeannette's post as the impetus of my argument because, to me, it provided very clear ideas with which I could construct my opinion.

Quote from: Katia on July 22, 2007, 11:25:56 PM
i don't believe that the death penalty can bring about peace but it does bring about justice, i feel that it is entirely justified...if there were a mad animal biting people, i would have no compunction about shooting it....not to punish it...not to deter other animals (both are ridiculous) but to ensure that he didn't bite more people.  my philosophy is that mass or serial killers have reduced themselves to the level of a rabid dog, and society must take whatever steps are necessary to protect itself.

I agree with this paragraph, but I think that the remaining of your post is not consistent with what you have expressed here.  One of your mind games, ma cherie?
I'm almost certain that it is but I will wait.  I wouldn't like to make any assumptions about you and post them in a public forum.  

Quote from: Fer on July 23, 2007, 06:01:26 PM
When these controversial subjects are presented, there will be some who will try to make their opinion a personal issue.  I have my views, youve got yours, dont try to make me change my viewpoints because it will not work.  It is really not that complicated at all.  Attacking people who give an opposite viewpoint from yours & twisting their words is infantile.

Tell me about it!

I believe that the death penalty is just when there isn't any other penalty to equal the crime someone has committed.  As an example, Ted Bundy and Jeffrey Dahmer raped, tortured, mutilated, and killed many people (young men and women of all ages, the youngest being a 13 year old girl)  Can you honestly tell me that these men did not deserve to die?  Please!

Additionally the aim of the death penalty is to remove murderers from society who have committed heinous acts as the ones you can google out on the web; crimes that have seriously damaged the lives of the victim's loved ones.  Murderers who can't stop abusing and killing; people who can't adjust to society in anyway because it is in their nature to kill and destroy.  Uncivilized? What is uncivilized is the way that this country let these vicious people remain alive, burning our tax dollars in prison.  Unfortunately some of us do pay taxes and very high rates indeed for being single, childless and earning a salary which is considered "too high"   for our government statistics.

That's my opinion about the death penalty, and as you well put it in another thread Katia, take it or leave it!

tink

(Nero runs and vows never to listen through this door again)

no, no, no, wait a minute.  i'm not against the death penalty.  this is what i posted;

Quote from: Katia on July 22, 2007, 11:25:56 PM
this is not a poll.  i don't believe that the death penalty can bring about peace but it does bring about justice, i feel that it is entirely justified...if there were a mad animal biting people, i would have no compunction about shooting it....not to punish it...not to deter other animals (both are ridiculous) but to ensure that he didn't bite more people.  my philosophy is that mass or serial killers have reduced themselves to the level of a rabid dog, and society must take whatever steps are necessary to protect itself.

the rest was supposed to be a quote.  i was only tying to provide a fair assessment citing both points of view.
i concord that the death penalty may not deter someone else from committing murder, but it sure prevents that particular person from being free to murder again doesn't it? iow the death penalty puts the fear on the current criminals and the criminals in the making, often making them think twice and helping them become normal citizens. in some countries (i believe it is in the philippines), where the laws are so strict that spitting on the street will get you in jail and receive corporal punishment, murders are really rare.  in such countries murderers are not only repaid with the death penalty, it is preceded by gruesome torture. fear is the key in educating people & preventing killers from committing crimes.

of course, educating criminals is the best option if we are not dealing with murderers. but when it involves the lives of innocent humans as a trial and error, the opposition of the death penalty should consider that they're really the accomplices of future murderers. learning from patterns and histories is a valuable lesson.

ever since nyc adopted the death penalty, homicide rates dropped 4 times (2000 to ~500 a year) making nyc the safest city in the nation. it may sound like a cruel method, but it is the most efficient method in keeping crime down.

fear has been the proven method of dealing with criminals time and time again. and what better way is it to put fear in people other than the fear of death itself?

Quotemy philosophy is that mass or serial killers have reduced themselves to the level of a rabid dog, and society must take whatever steps are necessary to protect itself.

Here's the thing Katia.... I would venture to guess that many people do not "reduce themselves" into the pit.  We've all been in the pit haven't we?  Have we "reduced ourselves" to find out that we are depressed beyond limits being TS?  There's a lot of societal pressure out there and other external influences.

I can never pretend to understand why someone would kill someone else.  And that's where I leave it.  I don't understand.  If it were very cut and dried, I might be able to make the binary choice, but I just can't.  I don't have a problem removing the rabid animal from our society.  But I have a hard time putting it down to be rid of it. 

I could never actually pull the switch on someone......

Quoteand what better way is it to put fear in people other than the fear of death itself?

Ask them to testify before a senate subcommittee!

Cindi

Quote from: Cindi Jones on July 28, 2007, 09:05:24 PM


Here's the thing Katia.... I would venture to guess that many people do not "reduce themselves" into the pit.  We've all been in the pit haven't we?  Have we "reduced ourselves" to find out that we are depressed beyond limits being TS?  There's a lot of societal pressure out there and other external influences.

are you trying to imply that being ts is more or less the same as being a murderer?  do societal pressures make someone a murderer? i didnt choose to be ts; they did choose to kill people methodically & cruelly.
i respect your pov cindi but don't concord with it.

Quote from: cindi jonesI could never actually pull the switch on someone.....

tell this to a parent whose child has recently been murdered & see what kind of answers you get.

Quote from: Katia on July 28, 2007, 09:29:05 PM

Quote from: cindi jonesI could never actually pull the switch on someone.....

tell this to a parent whose child has recently been murdered & see what kind of answers you get.

   At the age of 5, I heard my father get bludgeoned to death in his own bedroom while I was in my bedroom.   I would not pull the switch. In fact, I pity the kid (he was 18 at the time) who did it. That was almost 40 years ago. I don't have time for hatred. I don't have the will for revenge.
   A lot of lives were destroyed that night. I never want to hear another person die again.

   Maybe I shouldn't have written this, but all I want is for people to understand that violence is not the answer to violence. I don't expect to change any minds. I just want people to know that I have no choice but to defend life over death no matter the circumstance.

   There is no way I can change my mind.  I am okay with others having a different opinion. I cannot come over to your point of view.

Love
without it, there is no life,

Rebis

I said before:

I am all for capital punishment. Someone who commits a murder does not have the right to keep their own life. I say 2 appeals maximum for a death sentence, and then if still found guilty the sentence should be carried out. No more of this 25 years of appeals stuff.

Im sure many more will get on here and start whining about the poor innocent people who might die for a crime not committed. We all know that has happened in rare instances, but prisons are full of innocent people. You just have to ask them. Theyll tell you. Our own tolerance as a society has gotten us to where we are today.


Basically the death penalty is a deterrent more than a punishment. Someone would think much longer and harder about murdering someone else if they knew that the crime would lead to their own death.

Too many times people try to tie this subj with another that I wont even say because I dont wish for the thread to get hijacked. The two just simply are not the same.

When a criminal makes the choice to end another persons life, they deserve the maximum sentence allowed by the laws of the state (or province or country for our posters outside the US) in which the crime took place. In one of the states I am familiar with, that is death by lethal injection. With this, the accused is likely receiving more mercy than their victim.

Quote from: Pia on July 28, 2007, 11:30:43 PM

Too many times people try to tie this subj with another that I wont even say because I dont wish for the thread to get hijacked. The two just simply are not the same.

         Yes. they are not the same. So let us agree that if one person deserves to die. We all deserve to die.  If so much as one person deserves to live. We all deserve to live.

Quote from: Rebis on July 28, 2007, 10:04:40 PM

Quote from: Katia on July 28, 2007, 09:29:05 PM

Quote from: cindi jonesI could never actually pull the switch on someone.....

tell this to a parent whose child has recently been murdered & see what kind of answers you get.

   At the age of 5, I heard my father get bludgeoned to death in his own bedroom while I was in my bedroom.   I would not pull the switch. In fact, I pity the kid (he was 18 at the time) who did it. That was almost 40 years ago. I don't have time for hatred. I don't have the will for revenge.
   A lot of lives were destroyed that night. I never want to hear another person die again.

   Maybe I shouldn't have written this, but all I want is for people to understand that violence is not the answer to violence. I don't expect to change any minds. I just want people to know that I have no choice but to defend life over death no matter the circumstance.

   There is no way I can change my mind.  I am okay with others having a different opinion. I cannot come over to your point of view.

Love
without it, there is no life,

Rebis

I'm so very sorry to hear this, Rebis.  Now I understand why you posted the polls.  You are right, there's always something behind us which shapes our thoughts, opinions,, etc.

I'm sorry that you had to go through this at the very young age.  I can't imagine your pain.



tink

Many people here state that the death penalty is a deterrent, when on earth has that ever been proven!!

Somebody said the crime rate diminished in NYC when then introduced it, the problem with that is that during the same period, crime diminished all over america regardless of the death penalty and that NYC underwent a real turnaround during the 90's (crime is linked to poverty and to the proportion of young people in society, that's a relationship that's certain).

Canada has no death penalty and the crime rate is rather low considering we've got an incredibly multi-ethnic with the highest level of emigration per population with Australia.

Of course, there's the Bundy's, etc. But, most people on death row are not serial killers. A substantial amount were convicted on a mix of circumstantial evidence and questionable or biased eye withnesses; not to mention a incontroversial racial bias in death penalty case. Not to mention that the defense mounted in regards to their case by public defendants is often pitiful.

Most of those on death rows are not psychopaths that will kil again regardless of how long they stay in prison. I'd only support it in the case of unredeamable psychopaths (a few year inside a psychiatric ward could assess this) with iron clad cases, preferably based on physical evidence instead of eye withnesses. In the case of Charles Manson for example, 30 or 50 years behind bars doesn't change anything, they're still psychopaths.

Quote from: Keira on July 29, 2007, 01:44:14 AM
Many people here state that the death penalty is a deterrent, when on earth has that ever been proven!!

Somebody said the crime rate diminished in NYC when then introduced it, the problem with that is that during the same period, crime diminished all over america regardless of the death penalty and that NYC underwent a real turnaround during the 90's (crime is linked to poverty and to the proportion of young people in society, that's a relationship that's certain).

   I spent a few days roaming around Times Square and 42nd street in NY city back in the early eighties.  It was very very different than what it is now.  There were 'undesirables' (drug dealers, prostitutes, porno palaces) everywhere. I had to keep explaining to people that I did not want to buy their drugs on the sidewalks in broad daylight.
   I lean towards Keira's explanation of why the murder rate dropped in New York.

Quote from: Kiera on July 24, 2007, 08:41:16 AM

Quote from: Nero on July 23, 2007, 09:03:28 AM
(Nero panics and quietly backs out of the room knowing he's on the verge of another 11 page tirade)

DITTO! (Katia knows exactly how i feel on the subject)

Totally.

Quote from: Keira on July 29, 2007, 01:44:14 AM

Many people here state that the death penalty is a deterrent, when on earth has that ever been proven!!

If you go to my post on the first page you will see a link about a study that did prove a connection so that has already been answered and by a peer reviewed article no less.

oh well, time to be contravershul again *sigh*
death penalty is good, it discourages some, and with correct implication, ie, only cases that are without doubt. then i agree. its something to be weilded deciceively. to be taken seriously.

Quote from: Rachael on July 30, 2007, 08:58:10 AM
oh well, time to be contravershul again *sigh*
death penalty is good, it discourages some, and with correct implication, ie, only cases that are without doubt. then i agree. its something to be weilded deciceively. to be taken seriously.

I agree. I am vehemently against the death penalty, but many are executed in my state, and I am troubled by the fact that most who are put to death are minorities who had no money for an attorney and got stuck with a public defender who half-assed the whole thing. While middle class white men convicted of the same crime never get the death penalty. Seems middle class whites are only sentenced to death if it's really gruesome (as in the case a while back where a 9 year old girl was raped and tortured for days and then buried alive).

I don't like the discrepency there. It disgusts me that people are put to death when they had a half-assed attorney (and believe me the public defenders here are horrible; they make a mistake on the paperwork and their client ends up serving extra time for it) and thus a poor defense.

If my state has to put people to death, the accused should have a fair chance.

killing people aint good katia.  it dont matter if criminal or not. we dont got a right to kill nobody.