I went to my church a few weeks ago, and because I was dressed, I felt it was best to use the ladies room instead of the men's room. When I went, it was empty, so I quickly went into a stall to do my business. I heard a door open and someone called out my name and told me that I shouldn't be in there. A few days later, my pastor called me to reprimand me about what had happened.

Quote from: suzifrommd on December 15, 2013, 01:37:17 PM
I don't recall any case ever anywhere of a trans woman facing any type of legal penalty for using a ladies' room. You gotta go somewhere, and I'm certainly not walking into the men's!

My point exactly! I often think of how strange it would look if I walked into the men's room wearing a nice dress with heels and some guys are coming out. I'm sure they'd stop me and give me directions to the ladies room, and I'm sure that they'd be surprised if I turned around and told them that it's againstthe law for me to use the ladies room because genetically I'm a male.

Quote from: Gina Taylor on December 18, 2013, 03:14:50 PM
My point exactly! I often think of how strange it would look if I walked into the men's room wearing a nice dress with heels and some guys are coming out. I'm sure they'd stop me and give me directions to the ladies room, and I'm sure that they'd be surprised if I turned around and told them that it's againstthe law for me to use the ladies room because genetically I'm a male.

I was once in a bookstore with a male friend of mine.  We both had to use the bathroom, and he asked a salesperson where they were.  She took us through a hallway to the mens room, and then turned to me, pointed a bit further down the hallway and said "your bathroom is right around the corner".

I still worry about using public restrooms with other people, but I'm *slowly* getting used to the idea.

Quote from: Gina Taylor on December 18, 2013, 03:00:46 PM
I went to my church a few weeks ago, and because I was dressed, I felt it was best to use the ladies room instead of the men's room. When I went, it was empty, so I quickly went into a stall to do my business. I heard a door open and soemoen called out my name and told me that I shouldn't be in there. A few days later, my pastor called me to reprimend me about what had happened.

You're not asking for advice, so I feel funny giving it, but I really feel moved to pipe in.

You are a woman.

The ladies' room is the appropriate room for you, especially when you are presenting female (whatever that means to you).

It doesn't matter whether it is empty or whether the other stalls are all occupied. When you present as a female, you ARE a female. Not a trans woman, not a part-time woman, not a woman-on-the-outside-something-else-on-the-inside. You are a woman, full stop.

Your pastor needs to have that explained to him. I know it's threatening to do that. Maybe a local LGBT organization can be enlisted to help, or maybe you can point him to literature on the internet.

Your pastor is neither your boss nor your parent. He has no right to "reprimand" you. You are an adult. You do not reprimand an adult. You speak respectfully to her about your preferences and then you listen to what she has to say.

You have a right to speak back to him. You have a right to express the humiliation of being forced to use a restroom that doesn't match your identity.

To me, part of my transition has been the development of the understanding that I am a woman through and through and will be for the rest of my life, and that other people simply don't have a right to define my identity.

I hope this helps. If it's wrong for you, please ignore it.

Quote from: suzifrommd on December 19, 2013, 06:18:32 AM
You're not asking for advice, so I feel funny giving it, but I really feel moved to pipe in.

You are a woman.

The ladies' room is the appropriate room for you, especially when you are presenting female (whatever that means to you).

It doesn't matter whether it is empty or whether the other stalls are all occupied. When you present as a female, you ARE a female. Not a trans woman, not a part-time woman, not a woman-on-the-outside-something-else-on-the-inside. You are a woman, full stop.

Your pastor needs to have that explained to him. I know it's threatening to do that. Maybe a local LGBT organization can be enlisted to help, or maybe you can point him to literature on the internet.

Your pastor is neither your boss nor your parent. He has no right to "reprimand" you. You are an adult. You do not reprimand an adult. You speak respectfully to her about your preferences and then you listen to what she has to say.

You have a right to speak back to him. You have a right to express the humiliation of being forced to use a restroom that doesn't match your identity.

To me, part of my transition has been the development of the understanding that I am a woman through and through and will be for the rest of my life, and that other people simply don't have a right to define my identity.

I hope this helps. If it's wrong for you, please ignore it.

Suzi, what you have said here has been very helpful, and I couldn't put it aside.

Thank you for treating me as a woman. My parents are still annoyed at the fact that I used the ladies room and that I went to church dressed. I tried to explain to them that since I was going to be going full time, I was just testing the water and decided to go to church as a woman. When I got there I was treated like a new member, but I found out later that everyone knew who I was. My mom told me that even with all the makeup on they'll still know me, because I've been going to that church for such a long time. Again I told my mom that that wasn't my intention of fooling anyone. My main intention was to go there as a woman, and if anyone asked, I would have explained that I am a transsexual, but more over I am a woman.

Now you had said: The ladies' room is the appropriate room for you, especially when you are presenting female (whatever that means to you).

As seen in my avatar, I present myself as a woman. To complete strangers I am more passable than I am to peole that I've known for years as my male self. I've worked for my parents for 18 years in their home improvement company. They will not allow me to work for them as a woman because they're afraid of what their customers may think. Back ten years ago after Huurricane Charley came through I bought four appointment books with 500 pages. We easily filled the books in a few days. That's 2000 pages and they were all of our old customrs. If I were to go and do a job for any one of the customers these days, I'd simply explain the changes to them and I'm sure that they'd understand.

Y'know Suzie, that's an excellent idea of approaching my pastor about the LGBT, not that I expect him to stand there with open arms  welcoming me back once he has a better understanding of it, because the damage has already been done.

My mom was just telling me that she saw her therapist yesterday and she agrees with her that I shouldn't be 'parading' around town dressed as a woman. I've tried to tell her that I'm not parading around, but I'd just be living out my days as a woman, but she doesn't want to accept that. So her tharpist suggested that I should see a psychiatrist and talk with him, which I'll be doing next month. Both of them are trying to get me to stop. They're under the impression that I'm a cross-dresser more than a transsexual, just because I never exhibited any feminine desires until I was 15, and my mom believes that it was caused because of the damage done to the frontal lobe of my brain. But moreover her therapist was surprised that after I gave her my coming out letter that she didn't throw me out of her house.

Quote from: Gina Taylor on December 19, 2013, 08:57:10 AM
They're under the impression that I'm a cross-dresser more than a transsexual, just because I never exhibited any feminine desires until I was 15, and my mom believes that it was caused because of the damage done to the frontal lobe of my brain.

Neither your mother, nor her therapist are qualified or have been called upon to diagnose you. Even if they were, exhibiting no feminine desires until your teen years means nothing. I had no desire to put on a woman's garment ever, and did so for the first time last year at age 51.

What your mother calls "parading", is really just being yourself. She needs to understand that. After all, one could say that she parades in women's clothes wherever she goes, right? And that is what you are going to look like all the time.

I hope this all is supportive. It's so hard to believe in what you're doing when everyone around you is allowing their feelings and prejudices to distort perceptions and facts.

Just a guess but it's possible that her therapist isn't literally saying these things to her.  Some people tend to think "I understand why that might upset you" to mean "I agree with you completely"

Quote from: suzifrommd on December 19, 2013, 10:35:05 AM
Neither your mother, nor her therapist are qualified or have been called upon to diagnose you. Even if they were, exhibiting no feminine desires until your teen years means nothing. I had no desire to put on a woman's garment ever, and did so for the first time last year at age 51.

What your mother calls "parading", is really just being yourself. She needs to understand that. After all, one could say that she parades in women's clothes wherever she goes, right? And that is what you are going to look like all the time.

I hope this all is supportive. It's so hard to believe in what you're doing when everyone around you is allowing their feelings and prejudices to distort perceptions and facts.

I couldn't believe it either! It's simply a lot of heresay from my mom's side. And like you said Suzi, her therapist can't diagnose me.

I was just reading your post that you didn't start until you were 51, but my mom is only concerned with me and she doesn't want to hear or read about anyone else. It really shows how close minded she is towards me. Unfortunately she just found out from my dad's cardiologist yesterday that he's only  giving him 2 years to live, so she's telling me that I should be more respectful and concerned about my dad's health and wellfare than about me and the problems that I've been facing for the last 30 years.

Thanks for explaining to me what my mom has been throwing at me about 'parading." Next time she does that I'll just throw it back at her. Right now she's moved up a step and has been telling me that if I move out I'll be walking the streets as a woman, and I take that to be a street walker, which as y'all know is a prostitute, which I'm not.  But I do plan on moving out by next month. Currently looking for a place to live, so that I can at least start living and enjoying my female life.

All these problems have really put me into a depressed mood and I really need to get away from it all.

I just got back from the local police station. I was PMing Anna about this last night, and an officer told me that I cannot go into any ladies room to use it until I've had SRS done and had my gender changed on my license, and I can be arrested if I'm found in there. So I will have to use the men's room until I get my SRS done.

Quote from: Orange Creamsicle on December 19, 2013, 10:38:08 AM
Just a guess but it's possible that her therapist isn't literally saying these things to her.  Some people tend to think "I understand why that might upset you" to mean "I agree with you completely"

It's possible. But my mom ussually tells me things that are truthful. At least I'll be seeing my therapist before I have to see the psychiatrist.

Quote from: Gina Taylor on December 19, 2013, 11:24:44 AM
I was PMing Anna about this last night, and an officer told me that I cannot go into any ladies room to use it until I've had SRS done and had my gender changed on my license, and I can be arrested if I'm found in there.

Reading this made my soul weep.

Quote from: suzifrommd on December 19, 2013, 11:58:15 AM
Reading this made my soul weep.

I'm a very particular woman and I do like to get things from the horse's mouth and that's what the law is here in the state of Florida is. And I do like to abide by the law.

The law is murky and based on location. I'm fairly sure it was illegal for me to use the ladies room in Missouri prior to my legal gender change. That said I also had consulted my doctors and lawyer and carried a doctors note. Nothing ever came of it( yes I used the womens restroom despite the legality) I got my legal gender change taken of. It would be a serious personal failing if my genitals to be discerned or seen preop.

Alright, from what I've read in short it depends on whether it's legal or not based on where you live. (Music, could you PM me please, want to ask you something?)  I advise everyone to take what they will from this though disclaimer here, I'm not saying break the law, only giving some insight and so on here.

About the law, it's there to protect the people and to help the people, NOT to be a dictator that tells us what to do when it doesn't involve protecting/helping people and for trans people it's in OUR best interests and to better protect us to let us use the bathroom that we say say/feel/present as. So I take issue with ANY LAW that isn't there for helping/protecting the people and is there to dictate what we can and cannot do and doesn't help/protect us/people but instead hurts and can even GET us/people killed such as in some places it not being legal to use the bathroom for the gender we are/feel/present etc. As for me, I will NOT let the law tell me what bathroom I can and cannot use! I am a woman and I have every RIGHT to use the woman's bathroom and I shouldn't have to be forced to use the men's bathroom because of some stupid dictatorship law that's been twisted to become what it is. (Dictatorship law)

I say dictatorship and twisted because if I'm not mistaken the law (If there is one) was put there to protect woman as well as men (Mostly women I'd imagine though) from being raped/harassed etc. in the bathroom but when it comes to trans people this law should have ABSOLUTLY no effect/barring on us whatsoever! When it does THAT'S WHEN it becomes dictatorship law and puts us in danger etc. etc. etc. Plus look at Japan, if I'm not mistaken they have mixed bathrooms and this INCLUDES mixed hot springs where in those hot springs people even go bare naked, yes in a mixed hot spring and did I mention Japan has one of the world's lowest rape rates?

Any who, I recently went shopping and was there for hrs, out in my female clothing being myself and I had to use the bathroom and for the first time, in a public bathroom with more than 1 stall, I used the woman's bathroom. That and the cashiers called me a her. That was one of the best days of my whole life. Admittedly though, only one woman saw me when she was going out of the bathroom and while I was in there some girls (Kids) came in put I left before they came out. I did try and go a second time but it was closed for cleaning. No idea if that is normal or not... :/ I can only hope it gets easier for me to use the woman's bathroom as it was hard on me and made me nervous or something and also that I never have any problems using the woman's bathroom...

Quote from: Gina Taylor on December 19, 2013, 12:23:51 PM
I'm a very particular woman and I do like to get things from the horse's mouth and that's what the law is here in the state of Florida is. And I do like to abide by the law.

Looking for a room to rent in the Fort Myers, Florida area. PM me if interested.

I'm so sorry that happened to you. (Bathroom/law incident) If I may ask, you said you were at the police station, how'd you get there? Arrested or taken there or something else? It's your choice but I'd like to her what happened to you, hopefully nothing got put on your records?

Sorry to hear about your Dad. Though I want to point something out here. I think it's VERY wrong and inconsiderate to ask someone to not be themselves just because someone else isn't in the best of health. (This is of course depends on the circumstances and who the person is) In this case I don't know what your Dad is going through (Or those around him) but I DO KNOW that from your side it's not right of your mom and isn't very considerate of her to ask you to lie and not be yourself and put your life in more danger due to you not being yourself and such. Plus it's a parent's job to protect their children, even after they're grown up and also if it were me, the parent I'd WANT to know if my child was trans or not. I'd want to know ANYTHING they're going through so I can do my best to be there for them, maybe your Dad is the same way? Either way, you'll have to decide what to do, you know not just in your heart but your mind what's the best thing to do. Best of luck! P.S. Sorry if what I said about your mom insulted you, I just don't think she's listening to reason/logic here and isn't fully considering your own feelings as you've said.

Quote from: Shana-chan on December 19, 2013, 10:03:10 PM
I'm so sorry that happened to you. (Bathroom/law incident) If I may ask, you said you were at the police station, how'd you get there? Arrested or taken there or something else? It's your choice but I'd like to her what happened to you, hopefully nothing got put on your records?

Sorry to hear about your Dad. Though I want to point something out here. I think it's VERY wrong and inconsiderate to ask someone to not be themselves just because someone else isn't in the best of health. (This is of course depends on the circumstances and who the person is) In this case I don't know what your Dad is going through (Or those around him) but I DO KNOW that from your side it's not right of your mom and isn't very considerate of her to ask you to lie and not be yourself and put your life in more danger due to you not being yourself and such. Plus it's a parent's job to protect their children, even after they're grown up and also if it were me, the parent I'd WANT to know if my child was trans or not. I'd want to know ANYTHING they're going through so I can do my best to be there for them, maybe your Dad is the same way? Either way, you'll have to decide what to do, you know not just in your heart but your mind what's the best thing to do. Best of luck! P.S. Sorry if what I said about your mom insulted you, I just don't think she's listening to reason/logic here and isn't fully considering your own feelings as you've said.

Thanks for your concern Shana Chan, but I went willingly into the police station and spoke with the officer about the situation.

Thanks for your concern about my dad as well. He's 78 years old, and my mom tends to get over stressed about things that she shouldn't. But you are right that it is inconsiderate of her to be asking me to put my life on hold so that she can tend to my dad, who right now is fairly healthy. The cardiolgist just said that he's giving him 2 years. He could surprise us all and live another 4 years. But he said that it's the business that he's involved in that's keping him alive. So if he becomes a couch potatoe, he's a dead man. That's why I've decided that I've gotta move and start living my life the best way I can . . . full time as a woman. Fortunately, I was talking with someone last night , and I may have found soemone that I can live with. 

But here's something that really floored me. My mom told me that I should consider it a privilage that she's allowing me to dress in my room, because she doesn't understand why I have to go out into the public dressed as a woman and then she tells me that she doesn't want me abusing this privilage and think that I can go travelling outside to the areas that she has deemed all right for me to go to. I think she's forgotten how old I am, and that she should treat me as an adult and not like an 8 year old.

Quote from: Gina Taylor on December 20, 2013, 12:58:32 AM
My mom told me that I should consider it a privilage that she's allowing me to dress in my room, because she doesn't understand why I have to go out into the public dressed as a woman and then she tells me that she doesn't wnat me abusing this privilage and think that I can go travelling outside to the areas that she has deemed all right for me to go to.

She's got that wrong. The privilege is hers.

It is a privilege for her to live with a daughter who is intelligent, courageous, and sensitive. That privilege will disappear if she drives you away by failing to show compassion or appreciation.

Quote from: Missy~rmdlm on December 19, 2013, 05:23:43 PM
Nothing ever came of it( yes I used the womens restroom despite the legality)

Me also. Not sure what it means to have a gender "legally changed" since every government agency here seems to have a different view. My driver's license says female, but my social security records still say male. (Can't pry the necessary letter out of my doctor).

But I use the ladies' wherever I go. I do that because I'm living full time as a woman. I'm not going into the men's. It's either the ladies' or peeing on the floor.

Some deep down angry part of me welcomes an arrest or hassle of some kind as a way to educate the public why laws excluding us from the correct bathrooms is inhuman, the way courageous men and women challenged racial segregation laws.

Quote from: suzifrommd on December 20, 2013, 06:42:56 AM
She's got that wrong. The privilege is hers.

It is a privilege for her to live with a daughter who is intelligent, courageous, and sensitive. That privilege will disappear if she drives you away by failing to show compassion or appreciation.

Me also. Not sure what it means to have a gender "legally changed" since every government agency here seems to have a different view. My driver's license says female, but my social security records still say male. (Can't pry the necessary letter out of my doctor).

But I use the ladies' wherever I go. I do that because I'm living full time as a woman. I'm not going into the men's. It's either the ladies' or peeing on the floor.

Some deep down angry part of me welcomes an arrest or hassle of some kind as a way to educate the public why laws excluding us from the correct bathrooms is inhuman, the way courageous men and women challenged racial segregation laws.

Thank you Suzi for your kind and heart felt words. I just wish my mom could see it that way Right now she's refusing to read anything that I send her and she's even threatened to change her e-mail address on me just to avoid getting anymore things from me. She doesn't like to be educated by a person who is actually going through something.

That's strange that you've got your driver's license gender marker changed but your doctor won't give you the necessary papers so that you can change your social security. I'm sure that you've changed your name on your social security card and that you have also had a new birth certificate and passport issued.

But as long as you're passable and have had no problems with using the women's washroom, then I personally wouldn't worry about it. Nice thing about being on hormones for a while is that it accentuates the female features. 

Last night I was at a shopping mall and had to use the restroom. Remembering the law, I went into the men's room, did my business and just before I left I stopped to touch up my lipstick. While I was there, there was a custodian standing behind me looking strangley at me. I didn't pay him no mind as I finished what I was doing and left. It was kind of funny though. 

Quote from: Gina Taylor on December 21, 2013, 05:11:38 AMLast night I was at a shopping mall and had to use the restroom. Remembering the law, I went into the men's room, did my business and just before I left I stopped to touch up my lipstick. While I was there, there was a custodian standing behind me looking strangley at me. I didn't pay him no mind as I finished what I was doing and left. It was kind of funny though. 

I think you'll be fine where no one you know is, that "law" is really pretty stupid, and no one is going to ask you to show them your genitals to enter a restroom.
Do what you feel is right.

Quote from: Willow on December 22, 2013, 12:44:49 AM
I think you'll be fine where no one you know is, that "law" is really pretty stupid, and no one is going to ask you to show them your genitals to enter a restroom.
Do what you feel is right.

Thanks for the vote of confidence Willow. I know that the law is pretty stupid, but I have to obey it to avoid getting arrested. But if I run into a problm with someone trying to be an idiot and cause any problems, I'll simply get out my driver's license and I'll show them. No need to show them my genitals for permission to use a washroom. I plan on having my picture changed soon.

Quote from: Gina Taylor on December 22, 2013, 02:21:18 AMThanks for the vote of confidence Willow. I know that the law is pretty stupid, but I have to obey it to avoid getting arrested. But if I run into a problm with someone trying to be an idiot and cause any problems, I'll simply get out my driver's license and I'll show them. No need to show them my genitals for permission to use a washroom. I plan on having my picture changed soon.

I meant that as more of an issue of using the women't restroom while dressed. No one sane will ask to see your genitals to admit you into the restroom. Use whatever restroom you're dressed as. Screw that pathetic excuse for a law.