(Some disclaimers: May contain potential triggers. Might be a sensitive topic for some. Please, try not to be too defensive or dramatic. I know how topics can spiral out of control. And the following is my own subjective experience. I mean no harm or disrespect to anyone, and I'm sorry if anyone happens to take offense with anything that I say. I really just mean for this to be a straightforward topic.)

For my MtF sisters, what was the extent of your awareness of how women are treated by society before/during/after you transitioned? And how do you cope with the social pressures and expectations that come with being a woman?

It still baffles me how ignorant I was as a 'guy'. How clouded and skewed my view of things used to be. Because once my T levels dropped and E levels rose, it was like I saw it all differently, and gained a lot of new insight into how women are treated. It wasn't just the personal awareness of having to be more cautious and defensive, but an awareness of how I would be seen and treated by people, not even as a transsexual but simply as a woman.

Despite being transgendered and out to myself and most people, I was not immune to displaying what could be seen as 'typical male behaviour' from time to time. And that included objectifying or being a jerk to women to various degrees. I could see what I was doing, but it didn't affect me directly so it still happened. And no, nothing horrible, just things that some guys might do or say to women that might be seen as insensitive. Or opinions about women that didn't quite register the same way they do now. In any case, none of this stuff seemed to conflict with my wanting to be a woman, because I think it wasn't a part of my reality at the time. I couldn't truly put myself in the shoes of a woman or see through their eyes, since being female was more of a fantasy (and an incomplete one I might add).

So now that I'm transitioning, it's REAL to me. I feel like I'm seeing through a woman's eyes now. I'm in her shoes. That's me now, and becoming even more solidified in my consciousness. I see a bigger and more complete picture. And what I see now is just how women are really treated by men and the rest of society... how I'm going to be treated. The social nuances, the expectations of appearance, the stereotypes, the power struggles, the glass ceiling, and much more. I'll watch interactions between men and women now, or watch women in television and film, and it's shocking that I didn't see all this so clearly before. I see all these expectations of how women should look, act, and think and it's just so... frustrating, confusing, a bit daunting and intimidating, and a bit depressing. That's not to say I don't see all the positives. I sooo do. But, I can see the downsides of being a woman now too, and it's something I'm going to have to learn to cope with. Even interactions with men that might seem amiable, could elicit some awkwardness, apprehension, or conflicting feelings. For example, a guy opening a door for me. Sure it's nice, but it's a gesture that's loaded with so much subtext when you think about it. I'm going to be expected to feel grateful, to be courteous, and to accept help from this guy. And if I try to hold the door open for him? I risk insulting and undermining his masculinity. There are a lot of social pressures behind a lot of things, and sometimes I wonder how I'm going to deal with a lot of them. This is all stuff I hadn't bothered to consider as a 'guy', but it's going to be thrust upon me regardless. I do want to be a woman, and I can't help that, it's who I am. But now to fill that gender role in the eyes of the public, I have to accept everything that comes with it, good and bad, enjoyable or frustrating. I just feel like approaching it from this angle and point in my life (not having grown up as a girl and 'eased' into womanhood) is rather stressful, and a bit scary...

I am a pretty keen observer so I was quite aware before I started. I knew what I was getting myself into. Know that to make it WELL in the society, I have to accept everything that comes with. I have no problem with that.

You might be over thinking about when a girl opens a door for a guy. At least nowadays it doesn't really mean anything (I think?).

However, you don't have to fulfill ALL the stereotypical gender roles. Women didn't make progress by following what's in front of them without question. Or any other oppressed group, for that matter. You can abstain from some of them, and that's OK.  Change in the world starts with you.

Nice.

I understand your view and have for many years. As a science-medic the glass ceiling is well and truly in place and as a 'guy' I broke through it, but I see my colleagues frustrations of being better and not able to compete on the level field.

I also see the problems, from both sides, in parenting and job changes. I would have loved to have had a child, but obviously could not, but I would not have the position I am in if I had.

Courtesy. Mmmm a point. I do like my colleagues deferring to me in taxis, doors etc and I do not feel in anyway lessened by good manners, no matter how stereotypical they may be. I have always thought that manners are the oil of society and I have no problems with that, but that could also be a reflection of my age.

Violence: I am now very aware of how intimidating a man can be from his sheer size, I'm fit but I have lost all my 'male' muscle and I do feel threatened very easily, and that is a sad reflection on my perceptions and of how society has developed. I of course realise that most men respect women and would not harm them but it only takes one. Men also realise this.

For example I was at a function recently and when I left one of my male colleagues insisted on walking me to my car, it was at night, and no one thought it was in any way odd. He had no romantic interest in me BTW it was just courtesy, the other two woman at the function received the same care.


Life is very different from what it use to be. One thing that hits me is that I am freely allowed to interact with other women's children, something that my female friends had hesitancy in the past. For no reason BTW, just that women seem not to trust men with their child. That is so sad, but it is life.

Is any of this a loss for me? I would have to say no. Yes my relationships are different, but I freely accept them and indeed enjoy them.

Quote from: Ashey on December 20, 2013, 01:07:34 AM
For my MtF sisters, what was the extent of your awareness of how women are treated by society before/during/after you transitioned? And how do you cope with the social pressures and expectations that come with being a woman?

Before I was fully closeted and put on a male persona. I certainly joined in on some misogynistic conversations and probably did some microaggressive behavior toward women in the office. . . but it was all very minor. I was never a strong male personality. I did lots of stereotypically female activities (proudly).

Now, during transition but presenting male, my mind is completely open to seeing true misogynistic behavior, especially in the workplace. Some people are much worse than others... I'm an engineer and we have a number of women in high technical roles, but there aren't many women overall. Some "men" actively downplay any good thing these women do. Some will even take credit for it, given a situation where that's possible. Some will even insult their intelligence outright. Unfortunately I'm thinking of one boy in the office in particular. My girl friend actively hates him, he knows it, and she knows he knows it. She wouldn't sit next to him at the work christmas pot-luck and even told him she'd hate to have to sit there It was venomous from a woman who is about the nicest person to practically everyone else.

Yeah... I'm a bit embarrassed to admit how ignorant I was pre-transition. And then all of a sudden I started seeing the ridiculous standards. Like, when I used to watch videos of female surfers, I'd think something along the lines of "wow, you rock, go get em'!" Where suddenly recently I started noticing that every single one of those surfing videos of women included cover shots of them wearing skimpy clothing, talking about their careers in acting and modeling, while the videos of male surfers were all just about what they had actually accomplished in the surfing world. Suddenly the blinders were lifted and I realized just how much of a male perspective our culture has, and how much pressure women are constantly under to be completely perfect in every single way, to tailor themselves to male ideals. Unfortunately, I never noticed that before. Or at least if I did notice it, it never emotionally registered with me.

I try to be aware, but I recall reading about safety as a transgender woman and having an "oh ->-bleeped-<-" moment. I have generally lived most of my life expecting to be reasonably safe and at least treated with a standard degree of respect. So I imagine things might be a bit new to me.

Funfact: You decrease the chance of getting jumped alone if you carry something to hit with, an umbrella or purse.

I read this article where rapists were interviewed about what they look for in a potential victim, and an inclination to resist is a warning sign to them.
I should amend that, apparently the information I pulled that from was made with a good intent, but is actually rather a hoax.

Quote from: Mogu on December 20, 2013, 07:48:09 AM
Funfact: You decrease the chance of getting jumped alone if you carry something to hit with, an umbrella or purse.

...or baseball bat

Quote from: kabit on December 20, 2013, 07:49:49 AM
...or baseball bat

I prefer a sword, but that's just me.

Quote from: Mogu on December 20, 2013, 07:50:44 AM
I prefer a sword, but that's just me.

Me too...

Quote from: Ashey on December 20, 2013, 01:07:34 AM
For my MtF sisters, what was the extent of your awareness of how women are treated by society before/during/after you transitioned? And how do you cope with the social pressures and expectations that come with being a woman?

I didn't have an incredible amount of awareness before transition, but I did know that there are still inequalities between men and women.  When I was younger I remember being confused about what makes being a guy so great, but I never really acted on anything at the time.  I felt uncomfortable around blatantly sexist people, but I never really knew what to do about it.

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It still baffles me how ignorant I was as a 'guy'.  How clouded and skewed my view of things used to be.

Sadly, I think this lack of awareness is common in those people raised to be male.  The general idea is that privilege is invisible to those who have it, so if you were raised to be male it just seems "normal".

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I see all these expectations of how women should look, act, and think and it's just so... frustrating, confusing, a bit daunting and intimidating, and a bit depressing.

Not meeting these expectations doesn't make you any less of a woman.  One of my friends tried to teach me that shortly before I went full time, but it didn't quite sink in at the time (and I think I frustrated her by saying "it's different for transwomen!").  Transition has freed me from thinking in terms of what's masculine and what's feminine, and instead I do things because I want to.  I don't think about my behavior, and I can't remember the las time I wore makeup (maybe Thanksgiving?).  If there is ever a conflict between what society wants and what you want, just remember that society is wrong .

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Even interactions with men that might seem amiable, could elicit some awkwardness, apprehension, or conflicting feelings. For example, a guy opening a door for me. Sure it's nice, but it's a gesture that's loaded with so much subtext when you think about it. I'm going to be expected to feel grateful, to be courteous, and to accept help from this guy. And if I try to hold the door open for him? I risk insulting and undermining his masculinity.

Heh.  I remember the first time a guy opened the door for me.  I was in a comic book shop buying the most recent issue of Doctor Who, and he was in line right before me.  He was talking to the cashier about something, and I chimed in with a Firefly reference.  I was just beginning to pay for my comic book when he said "I'll get the door for you!" and ran off to get it.  I didn't know what to do!  I wanted to put my comic book into my backpack, but he was already at the door.  I ended up going along with it, since I didn't want to out myself by revealing that I was really confused about what just happened.  The next time that happens I want to reply with "Thanks!  Nobody ever held the door for me when I was a guy!" just to see what happens!

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There are a lot of social pressures behind a lot of things, and sometimes I wonder how I'm going to deal with a lot of them.

Like I said earlier, meeting what society expects shouldn't be a high priority and will only get in the way of enjoying your life.   Be willing to try new things (like makeup), but don't feel pressured into doing things you don't like.

Quote from: Ashey on December 20, 2013, 01:07:34 AM
For my MtF sisters, what was the extent of your awareness of how women are treated by society before/during/after you transitioned? And how do you cope with the social pressures and expectations that come with being a woman?

I was intimately familiar with them. My fascination with women led me to consume lots of books and media aimed at women. There were a few surprises, but by and large, it was the way I expected.

The biggest surprise was how much people would smile at me.

Women smile a lot, at each other and at anyone they want something from. This is often something minor such as acceptance or conversation but can be as simple as wanting to do well in an interview or show encouragement. It usually drove me nuts hearing that smile comment because it was usually someone trying to 'cheer' me up.

I was pretty well informed - I was an aware feminist myself and also dating an ardent feminist who was at a women's college, heh - but what I didn't realize was how exhausting it would be to actually LIVE with all the tiny little ways our society mistreats women. It's not the big stuff that got me... it was the "microaggressions," the 25 times a day I'd have to bite my tongue and look polite while some incredibly irritating, incredibly minor thing grated on me. I knew they all happened, I just didn't have any way of knowing what it'd be like to be unable to walk away from it all!

Quote from: Carrie Liz on December 20, 2013, 05:36:34 AM
Yeah... I'm a bit embarrassed to admit how ignorant I was pre-transition. And then all of a sudden I started seeing the ridiculous standards. Like, when I used to watch videos of female surfers, I'd think something along the lines of "wow, you rock, go get em'!" Where suddenly recently I started noticing that every single one of those surfing videos of women included cover shots of them wearing skimpy clothing, talking about their careers in acting and modeling, while the videos of male surfers were all just about what they had actually accomplished in the surfing world. Suddenly the blinders were lifted and I realized just how much of a male perspective our culture has, and how much pressure women are constantly under to be completely perfect in every single way, to tailor themselves to male ideals. Unfortunately, I never noticed that before. Or at least if I did notice it, it never emotionally registered with me.

Didn't register with me either. It's like anything where you can read about it and sympathize but you don't really get it, or feel it, or it doesn't truly sink in until you live it. And that's how it feels for me. I used to just be like 'Yeah, sexism sucks..' but without that emotional connection to it, without it applying to me, it just didn't totally click. But now that I know what to look for, and feel something about it, I see it everywhere.

Quote from: Anna++ on December 20, 2013, 08:30:50 AM
Not meeting these expectations doesn't make you any less of a woman.  One of my friends tried to teach me that shortly before I went full time, but it didn't quite sink in at the time (and I think I frustrated her by saying "it's different for transwomen!").  Transition has freed me from thinking in terms of what's masculine and what's feminine, and instead I do things because I want to.  I don't think about my behavior, and I can't remember the las time I wore makeup (maybe Thanksgiving?).  If there is ever a conflict between what society wants and what you want, just remember that society is wrong .

It's conflicting for me though... I'm very submissive, a people-pleaser, and I generally like men. But, since starting my transition, I also feel this 'feminist' blossoming within me. >_> Usually I can reconcile my conflicting halves but, this will take some work.. Part of me wants to go with society, and be seen as a nice, attractive woman, even with the strings attached. Then the other part is like, 'screw what they think! be yourself! and don't let a man tell you what a woman should be!'.

Quote from: Anna++ on December 20, 2013, 08:30:50 AM
Heh.  I remember the first time a guy opened the door for me.  I was in a comic book shop buying the most recent issue of Doctor Who, and he was in line right before me.  He was talking to the cashier about something, and I chimed in with a Firefly reference.  I was just beginning to pay for my comic book when he said "I'll get the door for you!" and ran off to get it.  I didn't know what to do!  I wanted to put my comic book into my backpack, but he was already at the door.  I ended up going along with it, since I didn't want to out myself by revealing that I was really confused about what just happened.  The next time that happens I want to reply with "Thanks!  Nobody ever held the door for me when I was a guy!" just to see what happens!

It's all these gender-based social interactions that have me a bit worried. Most women are probably used to it since they grew up with it, but me? I haven't always paid attention to things like that. Opening a door for someone, to me, depends entirely on proximity and just being nice. If I'm closer to the door, and I want to be nice and open it for someone I will, regardless of gender. I'd expect the same from someone else. But would I have gone out of my way to open a door for a woman just because she's a woman? Nope. So if I see a guy go out of his way to open a door for me, I'm going to think it's either a result of social conditioning, or he's getting something out of it (a smile or gratitude from me, the satisfaction of helping a woman, or *shudder* the potential for further interaction). I may not fully understand men, but I have observed their behaviours and interacted with quite a few online as a woman. I know some guys are just nice, but a lot of them will be looking to get something out of their interactions with women... I just feel like I'm going to freeze-up when things like this happen. :/

Quote from: LordKAT on December 20, 2013, 10:54:15 AM
Women smile a lot, at each other and at anyone they want something from. This is often something minor such as acceptance or conversation but can be as simple as wanting to do well in an interview or show encouragement. It usually drove me nuts hearing that smile comment because it was usually someone trying to 'cheer' me up.

Oh yes, smiling... But that goes into what I just wrote about too. The expectation that some men have for women to smile... Depending on my mood, I might not want to give them the satisfaction. All this has been covered in another topic though...

Quote from: Jenna Marie on December 20, 2013, 05:53:29 PM
I was pretty well informed - I was an aware feminist myself and also dating an ardent feminist who was at a women's college, heh - but what I didn't realize was how exhausting it would be to actually LIVE with all the tiny little ways our society mistreats women. It's not the big stuff that got me... it was the "microaggressions," the 25 times a day I'd have to bite my tongue and look polite while some incredibly irritating, incredibly minor thing grated on me. I knew they all happened, I just didn't have any way of knowing what it'd be like to be unable to walk away from it all!

Yes! This is what I'm afraid of! All the little things... and I just know I'm going to notice them, pick them apart, and over-analyze. If not when it happens, then certainly later on when I have time to myself to wince and face-palm for just going with it.. >_<

Excellent post Ashey thank you.

My career field was predominately populated by women and I was aware of the hierarchy and misogyny of the work place.  Married for 39 years and raising a daughter was more experience.  I've considered myself a feminist and civil rights activist.  I have participated in women's resources workshops.

Nothing prepared me for the personal experience that you describe so well of being a woman and feeling so acutely the difference in how we are treated and the awareness of how I treated others as some kind of guy.

Yes, more guys should experience, at least temporarily, walking a mile in these high heels.

Quote from: Anna++ on December 20, 2013, 08:30:50 AM
If there is ever a conflict between what society wants and what you want, just remember that society is wrong

Love that!

This week the different treatment has really jumped out at me. Some things I'm not sure about, like being ignored in meetings. That's new but might have nothing to do with me being a girl. Other things like doors being held open, guys letting me out of the elevator first, being called "Sweetheart" by the girl working a cash register they are these subtle reminders that my life is different now and I'm starting to think the world does pretty much see me as a woman, not a trans woman. Going in I knew this treatment was out there, after all as a guy I always thought I should be chivalrous that it was proper. It's something being on the other side.

I would add though, especially for those coming up behind me, my awareness of how transwomen are treated has been changed too. My most recent example is Wednesday night I did karaoke in a bar. I'd long thought should I do that, I'd be this big spectacle given how I look vs. how I sound. Nothing. People just carried on with their conversations and drinks. I find that I was no big deal, really awesome.

Quote from: Jenna Marie on December 20, 2013, 05:53:29 PM
I was pretty well informed - I was an aware feminist myself and also dating an ardent feminist who was at a women's college, heh - but what I didn't realize was how exhausting it would be to actually LIVE with all the tiny little ways our society mistreats women. It's not the big stuff that got me... it was the "microaggressions," the 25 times a day I'd have to bite my tongue and look polite while some incredibly irritating, incredibly minor thing grated on me. I knew they all happened, I just didn't have any way of knowing what it'd be like to be unable to walk away from it all!

I ran into that twice today... bothered me, but not worth arguing over...

1. Guy at work is moving offices... and another guy (a pretty misogynistic one) said "we need a female in here - they're interior decorators."

2. Buying liquor (for my wife)... guy said "this time of year we have a hard time keeping Kahlua on the shelves. Women make cookies with it."

yes... only women do those things.

Still... it bothers me more that I'm not considered the woman in these situations

Ashey : The good news (?) is that eventually the annoyances pile up until we start getting good at ignoring them/not overanalyzing as much, I think.

Kabit : YES, stuff exactly like that. I knew the big, medium-sized, and small issues to some degree... it was the *tiny* things, the ones where if I even bother to tell people most of them will think I was overreacting just by noticing. And yet. (Also, grrr at those guys you ran into!!) The one that drives me bonkers, for example, is that now I have no personal space; it's kind of nice when other women pat me on the arm, but annoying as heck when some guy just basically runs me over and assumes I'll get out of his way.

The worst part of #1? The guy moving offices is my new manager... and he knows I'm trans.

The stupid comments I can take... my manager's possible realization that what was said may have affected me feels weird.

I grew up with mostly female influence, so I may be a bit different than others here.  Growing up in a household with two older sisters and a very vocal mother may shape the way you perceive things.  In many ways, I was never socialized to be your typical "guy".  Different really does explain me and my childhood pretty well.  In any event, I really see nothing different than before, but I was always a hard core gender egalitarian and never really was included as one of the guys; therefore, I didn't have the typical male privilege in many ways.  And even when I did, I saw through it and noticed what was happening.  Maybe I'll notice more things once I go full time.