You know what the original article didn't mention? How unhappy she was before her transition. Something had to cause her to want to transition and I wonder (1) how many de-transitioners forget the unhappiness they felt as their birth gender and (2) how de-transitioners feel years after they de-transition. That's one study I would like to see. I bet they are unhappier than their post-transition selves.

Jane

Quote from: JaneNicole2013 on December 22, 2013, 07:20:33 AM
You know what the original article didn't mention? How unhappy she was before her transition. Something had to cause her to want to transition and I wonder (1) how many de-transitioners forget the unhappiness they felt as their birth gender and (2) how de-transitioners feel years after they de-transition. That's one study I would like to see. I bet they are unhappier than their post-transition selves.

Jane

In the wikipedia about Renee Richards, it does say that in the mid -1960s he had traveled in Europe dressed as a woman. He had intended to go to North Africa to see Georges Burou, a famous gynecological surgeon at Clinique Parc in Casablanca, Morocco, regarding sex reassignment surgery; however, he ultimately decided against it and returned to New York. There, he married a woman, Barbara, and together they had one son. In the early 1970s, he again decided to undergo sex reassignment surgery and was referred to surgeon Roberto C. Granato Sr., by Harry Benjamin, successfully transitioning in 1975. 

Richards was barred from playing as a woman in the U.S. Open in 1976 unless she submitted to chromosomal testing. She sued the United States Tennis Association, and in 1977, she won the right to play as a woman without submitting to any testing. 

Quote from: Jenna Marie on December 17, 2013, 07:45:46 AM
Suzi : I felt the same way, and had some doubts right up until the night before. I was reasonably sure I'd be happier afterward, but I never felt like I NEEDED surgery in order to keep living or to have above-zero quality of life. I'm still delighted that I did it, and grateful every day. Obviously I can't tell you how you'll feel (if only we could predict the future!), but the narrative that everyone must be *desperate* to get surgery or they'll regret it seems damaging, in the same way that being told that true transsexuals have to be suicidal before they transition convinced me that I must be faking.

There is apparently at least one woman on this forum who posts occasionally about desperately regretting GRS, but she also says she was forced into it and did it mostly to get her documents in order, which it turns out *was* a bad reason.

I'm happy to see this. It's liberating. I think it is a damaging narrative. I've often wondered: could this be an outdated narrative from a earlier day, when it was much more of a rare thing to transition ~ since so much more was a 'guaranteed loss' (family, job, home, etc) in those times? I.E. You should only transition if you're not planning on living any other way?

I was convinced you had to be suicidal to want to transition. I've never felt suicidal. I would not kill myself if I couldn't get my SRS. I would never have continued living as a male, that's for damn sure.  I was really stuck in the middle. I've wondered the whole time why the suicide narrative didn't seem to pertain to my case.

Even though this likely stunted my transition some, the upside is that I've taken my transition extremely carefully and slowly, (primarily because of that narrative) over-testing and and likely over evaluating myself at each step..but still feeling *just fine* to move onward. But because of that the little 'suicide narrative' voice..I kept doubtfully wondering why everything feels so normal. I didn't let it stop me.

I started my transition in 2008. I still never felt like I made one wrong step..save for not doing this twenty years earlier. I approach my SRS now (six months off).

Of course, I wonder how I'll be feeling post op. I have the usual fears. I guess this is only natural. But like Suzi, I think I'll feel delighted and grateful to myself that I had everything corrected below, and matching what's above.

There are high-profile cases involving people regretting SRS, but Richards was not one of them.

"Richards, now 72 and without a partner, said she does not regret the sex change operation at the age of 40 -- although she might have liked to have gone through the process a bit earlier -- but she does have misgivings about her notoriety" [italics mine]
("Transsexual pioneer Renee Richards regrets fame" Goldsmith, 2007. Reuters: http://www.reuters.com/article/2007/02/18/us-richards-idUSN1619986120070218)

Quote from: livinit on December 26, 2013, 11:55:00 PM
I'm happy to see this. It's liberating. I think it is a damaging narrative. I've often wondered: could this be an outdated narrative from a earlier day, when it was much more of a rare thing to transition ~ since so much more was a 'guaranteed loss' (family, job, home, etc) in those times? I.E. You should only transition if you're not planning on living any other way?

I was convinced you had to be suicidal to want to transition. I've never felt suicidal. I would not kill myself if I couldn't get my SRS. I would never have continued living as a male, that's for damn sure.  I was really stuck in the middle. I've wondered the whole time why the suicide narrative didn't seem to pertain to my case.

Even though this likely stunted my transition some, the upside is that I've taken my transition extremely carefully and slowly, (primarily because of that narrative) over-testing and and likely over evaluating myself at each step..but still feeling *just fine* to move onward. But because of that the little 'suicide narrative' voice..I kept doubtfully wondering why everything feels so normal. I didn't let it stop me.

I started my transition in 2008. I still never felt like I made one wrong step..save for not doing this twenty years earlier. I approach my SRS now (six months off).

Of course, I wonder how I'll be feeling post op. I have the usual fears. I guess this is only natural. But like Suzi, I think I'll feel delighted and grateful to myself that I had everything corrected below, and matching what's above.

Sometime suicide does enter the mind at some point. I have a pretty strong mind, and it hasn't happened to me yet. But I do recall a sister from this site telling me a few years ago that she was in the hospital just after getting her SRS done, and they rolled her roommate in and the next morning she went through the window. I guess psychologically she wasn't ready for the change.

Every time I hear about this kind of thing, people who are completely miserable after GRS, going full time, whatever...... I have to wonder..... What happened before? Most Trans folks do HRT and some have to do a year of full time to get HRT. Where they miserable then? When they changed their name, legal documents, and came out to friends and family, did they have any regrets or issues? It seems like many of these stories go from 0 to GRS w/out any info/issues. Then all of a sudden they are completely miserable and are often using their misery to warn others. 

livinit : That's an interesting theory, and a plausible one. I do know that quite a few people who have told me that "you have to be suicidal thing," and most of them ALSO said more or less what you postulate : that for *them,* it was a question of whether they took a risk on losing everything in their life or lost their life. I'm not saying they're wrong or shouldn't tell their stories, either! But I think it's good for people like you and I to tell ours, too.

I was never suicidal over transition, and like you, I basically redefined it for myself as "do I want this next specific step? OK, let's try that and see how I feel." I was certain by a few months in that I wanted to transition to full-time female and have GRS... but I had those same self-doubts that maybe I shouldn't commit to the WHOLE plan if I wasn't 100% suicidally miserable. (I jerked my wife around a lot during that period, unfortunately, since she kind of wanted - and needed - to know the "whole" plan.)

Heck, once I got far enough along, I also added feeling guilty that I was having it so much easier than some other people, especially those who'd been suicidally depressed and suffered terribly. (I didn't lose anything serious in my life; marriage, career, and family are actually all improved now.) I didn't exactly transition on a whim, but it could feel that way sometimes compared to some of the stories out there.

Good luck with your upcoming surgery!!

I have met personally perhaps a dozen postops in person (that I knew of). I'm not in an area that this is a common phenomenon being St. Charles county/St. Louis county. None are nonfunctional people, of course they have the caveat if they were nonfunctioning adults would I have met them? Anyway none of them have expressed extraordinary regret, some certainly say there is postop blues. Some of that may be related to sexual expectations and finding partners.

Quote from: JaneNicole2013 on December 22, 2013, 07:20:33 AM
You know what the original article didn't mention? How unhappy she was before her transition. Something had to cause her to want to transition and I wonder (1) how many de-transitioners forget the unhappiness they felt as their birth gender and (2) how de-transitioners feel years after they de-transition. That's one study I would like to see. I bet they are unhappier than their post-transition selves.

Jane

I'm sure they were unhappy before the transition, otherwise the transition would have been pointless, surely. However, I think you have to give some credit for their decisions, as they are adults after all. If a de-transitioner suffers greater unhappiness, as you say, it's possible they do so because they've realised they don't fit at either extreme of the gender spectrum. I imagine that this realisation is quite difficult for many people, and rightly so given our gender binary society.

Jenna Marie: Thanks for adding credence to my little theory. It's really been a sticking point in my mind, and has bothered me immensely during the course of my transition. If it were not for that ONE gnawing detail...ugh. I cannot complain though..as I've felt the very guilt you wrote about, regarding having an easier time of it than others who were having terrible difficulties in it all. I feared losing it all..but in the end, I didn't lose anything much..two clients from one of my three jobs. Small price to pay to get rid of those cheapskates anyway! And it was you that I had paraphrased using the terms 'delighted and grateful'.

Sorry for the paraphrased misquote, suzifrommd, but I appreciate that you introduced this concept and got us discussing it. I think it's really important to get these out there. Times are changing (perhaps?).

livinit

Is it my imagination, or does it appear to be controversial to say that there's a possibility for regret following SRS? There is a lot of defensiveness in this thread regarding that kind of regret, as though SRS itself could never be the real reason behind the unhappiness. I understand why some people would argue this, but I think it's dangerous to dismiss SRS as one of many causes of unhappiness.

Jenna : (The other one, I guess - hi!) I absolutely believe it's possible to regret GRS, if I wasn't clear.  After all, if I could suffer dysphoria from having a body that is physically wrong, as a problem distinct from social gender transition, I have no doubt whatsoever that it must be TERRIBLE to go through a surgery that remakes one's body *into* something that is wrong. The dysphoria from that might well be worse than what I felt pre-op. I can only imagine that it's probably 1000X worse to know one made a decision that proved to be a mistake on such a scale, too.

I was trying to be reassuring to people who seem fairly sure that they're going to be happy after GRS, but who have been told they "have to" feel a certain way to guarantee it's not a mistake. Nothing I said is intended to suggest that sometimes a specific person has *not* made a mistake by having GRS, if they regret it afterward.

(I also think it's an adult's right to make decisions they might regret, mind you. People regret having kids, buying a house, or having other plastic surgery, too. Nobody argues that cis people should have to jump through hoops to prove they "deserve" to make a major life decision like a grownup.)

Quote from: Jenna Marie on December 27, 2013, 03:09:32 PM
I was trying to be reassuring to people who seem fairly sure that they're going to be happy after GRS, but who have been told they "have to" feel a certain way to guarantee it's not a mistake.

I, for one, appreciated your message. I'm someone who is relatively happy and well adjusted (indeed, I was that way before my transition, though transitioning made things even better). I'm booked for SRS in June and I worry each time I read someone who says "if you're not going over the edge, don't get SRS". I've thought long and had about it and I think, despite the pain, risk, and difficulty, that I will emerge from SRS more at peace with my body. But I can't know for sure, right?

So it's reassuring reading the things you wrote.

Suzi : I'm glad it helped. For what it's worth, I do honestly believe you have a good grasp on what GRS will (and won't) do for you, and that you'll probably be very happy even though you aren't desperate now. I hope so, anyway!!

Getting back on topic:

Danielle Bunten said that she advised others considering a sex change not to proceed unless there was no alternative, and warned them of the cost, saying "Being my 'real self' could have included having a penis and including more femininity in whatever forms made sense. I didn't know that until too late and now I have to make the best of the life I've stumbled into. I just wish I would have tried more options before I jumped off the precipice."

Sandra MacDougall - an ex-soldier formerly known as Ian - took four years and 10,000 of NHS cash becoming a woman. But Sandra has revealed to Scotland that she wishes she was still male. The 49-year-old says her experiment with womanhood has failed, largely as a result of the blinkered attitudes of the Ayrshire community where she lives. The former member of the Scots Guards says she has suffered verbal and physical abuse since her sex swap operation almost four years ago, and wishes it could be reversed. But MacDougall now finds herself trapped in a woman's body after she consulted doctors and was told the operation could never be reversed. MacDougall, who has not had a relationship since going under the knife and expects to be celibate for the rest of her life, has now decided to make the best of her hard-won gender. She said: "Since I had the operation my life has been made a misery by people taunting me whenever I go out. "Recently when I was walking down the road a man swore at me and told me to stay away from the children." She also said she was sexually assaulted by three men by the side of a road in broad daylight, and had been disowned by her three brothers and two sisters. MacDougall added: "I would like to rejoin the army as a man again - they certainly wouldn't take me the way I am now. "People have been so cruel. I can't go anywhere now without being shouted and laughed at. Sometimes they don't say anything at all, just walk past me shaking their heads slowly." MacDougall, who served with the army in Northern Ireland and is martial arts trained, admits wanting to 'sling a punch' at her tormentors. "But I have to remember that I'm a woman and that it would not be a very lady-like thing to do," she said. She warned anyone thinking of having the operation to make sure they knew what they were letting themselves in for. She said: "Be more than 100% sure because once you've had the operation, that's it."

Charles Kane had a sex change - then hated being Samantha so became a man again. He spent £100,000 on cosmetic operations and tooth veneers to create the 'ultimate male ¬fantasy' and was so convincing as a woman he had no trouble attracting men, and was briefly engaged to a wealthy landowner.
Then, in 2004, after seven years of living as a woman, he decided he'd made a horrible mistake; the result -he believes now -of a breakdown following the acrimonious end of his 12-year ¬marriage and estrangement from his children. He hated the way female hormones made him moody and emotional. Shopping bored him and sex was a disappointment.
No matter how feminine he looked, he felt he was merely playing a role.
So, five years ago, Charles spent a further £25,000 on three operations to turn him back into a male after being referred by the gender clinic at London's Charing Cross Hospital.
His breast implants were removed and male genitalia re-constructed from skin grafts.
The trouble was, he wasn't the man he had been before.

 When I first started thinking about SRS, my psych asked me of what I was afraid.  I said being alone; separated from society and from personal relationships.

That seems to a rather common theme in those who regret SRS.

I wonder if having an orch first reduces or would reduce the post SRS regret.  I do not know.

Hugs,

Jen

I wonder what else has been going on in these individual lives and if they were of right mind and body when they transitioned? What have they done to resolve their angst? Anything? Are they generally a negative person or positive person? Did they do anything to build up a support network before and during transition? We can all probably learn some valuable lessons from them.

I just think maybe their expectations were too high or they transitioned for the wrong reasons. Maybe they weren't really transgendered? I don't know...I'm probably not one to make that call. I just think that it would be easy to misrepresent yourself to a health professional to get your referral and I can see people doing that.

Just my two cents

Jane

Quote from: JaneNicole2013 on December 28, 2013, 07:31:31 AM
I just think that it would be easy to misrepresent yourself to a health professional to get your referral and I can see people doing that.

You can? Why would anyone do that?

Quote from: JaneNicole2013 on December 28, 2013, 07:31:31 AM
I wonder what else has been going on in these individual lives and if they were of right mind and body when they transitioned? What have they done to resolve their angst? Anything? Are they generally a negative person or positive person? Did they do anything to build up a support network before and during transition? We can all probably learn some valuable lessons from them.

I just think maybe their expectations were too high or they transitioned for the wrong reasons. Maybe they weren't really transgendered? I don't know...I'm probably not one to make that call. I just think that it would be easy to misrepresent yourself to a health professional to get your referral and I can see people doing that.

Just my two cents

Jane

Y'know Jane, I can fully understand where you're coming from. All these people are high profile people. The only one I didn't list was Renee Richards, because I couldn't find what she had regreeted about, aside from not being able to play in tennis after her transition which she sued them for. But with all the money that Charles Kane had I'm sure that he overstepped some lines to do what he had to do. And Ian who became Sandra McDougall was a ex-solier from Scotland and I know that they're held in high regard and then we have Dan Bunten who became Danielle Bunten who was the video game inventor and I'm sure that she was doing very well off and could easily have over stepped some lines like Charles Kane.

Quote from: Carrie Liz on December 16, 2013, 07:44:19 PM
Just to throw in my two cents:

There's a survey of 448 trans individuals which was done in 2011 that really goes to show that all of these stories of regret and horror are REALLY overblown. Yes, they do happen, but we're basically defending ourselves against a very vocal minority that is somehow making it seem like transition is wrong for everyone just because it was wrong for them, when in reality around 96% are satisfied with transition as a whole, with 90% satisfied with SRS.

UK figure is more like 98% but the 20% get the headlines and chatshows.