I prefer to think of it more as "gender dissonance" and I consider my dysphoria to be fairly low. Wasn't always the case, as a teen and adolescent I would punch myself, considered taking a knife to my genitals, amongst other fairly unpleasant things. Somehow I got clear of that self-destructive self-hate behaviour. It's amazing I survived it now I think about it. But these days I'm pretty good. Sure I'm taking potentially health impairing HRT, having my face zapped to kill my beard and contemplating genital corrective surgery but I don't feel that I hate myself. I do hate being in a male body and being treated as such, but I don't hate myself. I can look at my body and not loathe it or be upset by it. Somewhere along the path I did learn to love myself, faults and all. I am me, how can I hate myself? I can't. Maybe that's why I'm not experiencing the same dysphoria as before. I have to say it did make me wonder "how trans*" I really was when I restarted this process. But to be honest the thought of not going through with it brings up such dread and fear that I know I have to do this, that's why I consider it a dissonance... that's what still remains, for me, when the dysphoria is reduced. Don't know if that makes much sense.

I never considered myself to have strong dysphoria, either.  My desire to transition was there, and it was gradually getting stronger, but I didn't really hate anything about the person I used to be.  It's up to you to decide on if you are transgender, and what to do about it if you are.  I think you should start by talking with a gender therapist, and then see where life takes you from there!

Quote from: Anna++ on December 28, 2013, 04:34:31 PM
It's up to you to decide on if you are transgender...

Could you clarify, as I'm not really sure what you mean by your above comment.

Quote from: Jenna Stannis on December 28, 2013, 04:59:16 PM
Could you clarify, as I'm not really sure what you mean by your above comment.

I mean that other people can't tell you if you are trans or not, it is something you have to figure out (and accept) for yourself.  The gender therapist will provide guidance for learning who you really are.

Quote from: Anna++ on December 28, 2013, 05:05:12 PM
I mean that other people can't tell you if you are trans or not, it is something you have to figure out (and accept) for yourself.  The gender therapist will provide guidance for learning who you really are.

I don't accept being trans, does that meant that I'm actually not trans?

I identify with a lot of what the OP wrote.  Lifelong depression, relating better to women than to men, feeling nothing but distaste for "masculinity," feeling like some kind of alien life form when I'm among people.

On the other hand, I've never felt this overwhelming need to become female (-- yet.)  I mostly just don't want anything to do with the male role, and envy that certain way women (mostly) accept other women and never accept men.  I also tell myself it's impossible, anyway, because the best I could hope for is to become a half-assed imitation of a woman.

On yet another hand, I often wish I'd been born a woman -- there are so many things that women get to do and to be that I've had impressed upon me are forbidden to men.  (And, yes, I know that women face all kinds of restrictions and oppressions that I, living as a man, never have to deal with.  Maybe if I'd been born a woman, I'd be wishing I were a man.)  When I was a child, I was terrified by stories in which a boy becomes a girl, but I think what I was actually terrified by was a wish that I could be transformed, a wish that was so forbidden I had to hide it even from myself.  Over the past ~10 years or so, I've gotten to the point of wearing skirts and jumpers ("pinafores", for you Brits) and sometimes dresses most of the time, and when I put on pants, I feel like I'm in drag.  (I'd wear women's blouses if I could find ones that actually fit me.  Maybe when my sewing skills get good enough, I'll make some, the way I make my own skirts &c.)  So my presentation is mixed -- female clothes with a male body.

I don't know what to call myself.  If I call myself "transgender," it feels like I'm "appropriating" the experience of Real Transsexuals(tm).  I used to think of myself as a cross-dresser, but every CDing forum I've visited just turns me off -- their attitude towards women, towards "femininity," and towards what they do is as alien to me as the stereotypical male locker room conversation.  I feel a lot more at home in the discussion fora for transgendered and transsexuals, even though I don't think I am one.  (Just as I feel a lot more at home in discussion groups by and for women than for groups for men -- or for mixed genders, either, since they usually end up being male-dominated.)  I've been hanging out in the androgyn section, but I don't feel any particular attraction to androgyny (though the people there are nice.)

Quote from: Jenna Stannis on December 28, 2013, 05:19:27 PM

I don't accept being trans, does that meant that I'm actually not trans?

I don't think the two have anything to do with each other.  It is possible for somebody to be trans and not accept it, just as it is possible for somebody to not accept having any other medical condition.

Quote from: Sephirah on December 28, 2013, 12:47:34 PM
Hon, you don't have to qualify for therapy. It's not something you do once you've already decided who you are and what you want as a way to facilitate that. Well, for some people it might be, but it's also a vehicle for you to explore all these feelings. To talk over the way you think and how you feel about yourself with someone who will listen and not pass any sort of judgement on that. If anything, I would say the reverse was true and therapy is actually a very good idea.

There are people here who didn't feel physical dysphoria and transitioned to who they are, simply because although what they had didn't feel wrong as such, what they wanted felt more right. It's not a pre-requisite.

I agree. You don't need to "qualify" for therapy/counseling. You go to one. They should not tell you who you are but help you figure out who you are. It's a pretty basic step if you express any, I mean, any amt of confusion. I don't feel you should have to go to one, but if you do want to medically transition, it's often a requirement as well.

--Jay

It seems to me we create our own "CERTIFICATE OF AUTHENTICITY" while a therapist or others may give it their official stamp of approval.

There are no objective tests for being transgender and no accurate measurements of dysphoria or pain.  We use a crude 1-10 scale to even talk about physical pain.  Pain is a complex set of signals.  You can interpret it for your self or?  We ultimately become our own "gatekeeper" for many of the decisions we make about what to do about how we feel.

I suppose this leaves it free for us to ponder until it is as clear as mud.  Perhaps a good reason so many of us recommend an experienced gender therapist for assistance?

I didn't have the classical dysphoric feelings mine came in a lot of subconscious forms such as lack of hygienic care,  zero confidence of how i looked as a guy,  very poor social skills, ect.   I questioned constantly if transition was right or not for me since i didn't have dysphoria but what i didn't realize at the time how much i really did just in different ways.  as i went through transition i noticed that classical dysphoria started to emerge.  most especially during low hormones or having to return to my male self for any extended period of time.  i stopped hormones all together for 3 months about 6 months into transition and it was really the first time i had the classical dysphoria.  I think we all get it in our own ways and to varying degrees.  the most important thing is to just be honest with yourself and very self evaluating.  if someone told me last year i would go all the way with surgery i would say they were crazy,  i don't really feel dysphoric towards bottom.  truth is now a year and 2 months into transition i have a ton of dysphoria towards bottom and plan to now have surgery.

One thing i did to help make my decision was to sit down and evaluate the negative consequences of transitioning and most importantly the permanent effects i would have to live with should i change my mind.  likewise i weighed it against staying as i was and just being open and honest about things to friends and family.  for me i know no matter what i couldn't hide things anymore so weather i was to transition or not i accepted i didn't fall into typical roles and wouldn't pretend to be ultra masculine to hide myself anymore.   

Quote from: Anna++ on December 28, 2013, 05:37:42 PM
I don't think the two have anything to do with each other.  It is possible for somebody to be trans and not accept it, just as it is possible for somebody to not accept having any other medical condition.

I think this exchange is suffering from some innocent equivocation.

I've never had a huge level of dysphoria - in fact, I'd describe it simply as a nagging feeling that something was wrong. I think I presented my therapist a challenge - I still don't have a real diagnosis, I'm simply 'a good candidate for hormonal reassignment'. I sometimes feel he is waiting for me to decide it's all been a terrible mistake, but it hasn't been.

Quote from: Jenna Stannis on December 28, 2013, 05:19:27 PM

I don't accept being trans, does that meant that I'm actually not trans?

Acceptance or non-acceptance doesn't make any more or less true.. I knew I was a woman at age 12 - it took me until I was 24 to accept it.

Speaking for myself, I too haven't had a great deal of dysphoria, at least not of the kind where I hate my male body. I actually like my male body, which also causes some internal conflict (dysphoria?). I've wanted to be female for a long time (like, a lot), but at the same time I don't want to give up my male body. It's a situation that, at times, causes me a great deal of angst.

As for knowing whether I'm trans or not, well, that's really a no-brainer; I can't really deny it. However, I don't accept it in the sense that I fight the urge to take things further. I just don't trust those urges. I know that it's a real desire, but I believe that it's an anomaly that I do not have to pursue.

How do other people know that they are trans if they are unsure? Well, a lot of personal histories in these forums are uncannily similar, so I do believe that there are comparative ways of knowing by reading classic case histories. Of course, you could argue that someone may not consider themselves trans if they share an identical history with a trans person. But how does this argument sit with people who say that being trans is a very real, biological brain state, or, as someone stated, "medical condition"?

Quote from: kelly_aus on December 28, 2013, 06:09:01 PM
Acceptance or non-acceptance doesn't make any more or less true.

Yes, but how do you know it's true to start with? The arguments so far all seems quite circular to me.

Jenna, certainly you can deny, or not accept, that you are trans gendered. I know I did that too. You may have some gender identity issues, sounds like it but again that is for you to decide. Having a gender identity issue doesn't make you trans gendered. I guess the point others are making is that the degree to which those gender identity issues cause you to seek expressing yourself as another gender, and the degree to which you feel ("accept") that it is a path you want and/or need to explore/take then that is the point one may be trans gendered. Or not. It really is a personal thing which is probably why is seems like such a circular discussion.

Quote from: Jenna Stannis on December 28, 2013, 06:29:16 PM
Speaking for myself, I too haven't had a great deal of dysphoria, at least not of the kind where I hate my male body. I actually like my male body, which also causes some internal conflict (dysphoria?). I've wanted to be female for a long time (like, a lot), but at the same time I don't want to give up my male body. It's a situation that, at times, causes me a great deal of angst.

As for knowing whether I'm trans or not, well, that's really a no-brainer; I can't really deny it. However, I don't accept it in the sense that I fight the urge to take things further. I just don't trust those urges. I know that it's a real desire, but I believe that it's an anomaly that I do not have to pursue.

How do other people know that they are trans if they are unsure? Well, a lot of personal histories in these forums are uncannily similar, so I do believe that there are comparative ways of knowing by reading classic case histories. Of course, you could argue that someone may not consider themselves trans if they share an identical history with a trans person. But how does this argument sit with people who say that being trans is a very real, biological brain state, or, as someone stated, "medical condition"?

Any number of human conditions (medical, physical, psychological) have a gradation of severity.

Why can not dysphoria reflect the degree the "biological brain state" differs from the physical, genotypical state?

Over the past few decades, medical science has demonstrated the many "mental illnesses" have their root in neuro/bio-chemical imbalances or defects - a medical condition with psychological manifestations.

Speaking now strictly about the MAAB (46, XY) MtF or MtA TG/TS person, we all start off at conception and for the first few weeks essentially as undifferentiated from a 46, XX person, in utero.

If the genetically programmed sexual differentiation does not take place at all, it often results in a 46, XY CAIS woman.  Consider that on endpoint.  If everything goes exactly as programmed by evolutionary genetics, you end up with a cismale.  What about everyone in between?  How many of us MAAB are not at those endpoints?

Quote from: Jamie D on December 28, 2013, 06:49:58 PM
Any number of human conditions (medical, physical, psychological) have a gradation of severity. Why can not dysphoria reflect the degree the "biological brain state" differs from the physical, genotypical state?... What about everyone in between? How many of us MAAB are not at those endpoints?

I don't disagree. I suspect, that it's probably more common for trans people to sit somewhere along the gender spectrum between the two extremes. But they're still trans, no?

QuoteOver the past few decades, medical science has demonstrated the many "mental illnesses" have their root in neuro/bio-chemical imbalances or defects - a medical condition with psychological manifestations

Am I suffering a mental illness, a psychological anomaly?

I think gender dysphoria is a manifestation of a developmental anomaly.  For most it is a condition, not a mental illness.

If I had to take a guess about myself, I would say that my brain was only partially masculinized in utero.  That left somewhere in the middle, between masculine and feminine.

Transgender is a very large umbrella term with transsexuals in the UV end of the spectrum. Not all of us need to fully transition  socially with the medically option. (definitions vary)

I felt from an early age I should have been born a girl. I also learned and came to accept (resigned to) being a guy, making the best of it I could. I also learned where my true joy lies having achieved my lifelong dream of being seen as and accepted as a woman.

Do I need to transition?; a question I often wrestle with. Unlike many others I know, I haven't hit that "Transition or die" wall. Only a slightly glancing blow one time. My dysphoria was never that severe. However, I always saw myself as a faker, undeserving of any of the rewards in life I worked to obtain. Being that faker also led to many of my lifes great disasters.

Would I like to transition? The answer to that question never wavered from Yes. (with the caveat of "in a perfect world....)

My life is far far better now that I stopped denying and came to full acceptance of this very large and very important aspect of my true self. How I feel, think, and see myself has changed immensely these past five years.

Quote from: Jenna Stannis on December 28, 2013, 02:47:05 PM

The stuff they make up to sell newspapers.

I remember reading about Chales Kane in another tabloid and figuring that it's kind of whacky to be turned into a woman and then turned back into a man but that wasn't exactly made up. Because it really did happen.