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Gender paradox?

Started by Jenna Stannis, December 31, 2013, 06:51:11 PM

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Emo

@kiera
thats part of why i decided i wanted a full trans.
i dont want the T to control me. if i decide to be celibate, i want it to come easy.

@feather
exactly!
i usually prefer genderless activities like watching anime and reading... and music.

but i guess its what i choose. i like any kind of anime but ive seen girly (chobits) and manly (soul eater) but i tend to go for ones that express bth sides of the spectrum. a little romance mixed in with violence and lots of thinking and stuff like that.
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Jamie D

Quote from: Jenna Stannis on December 31, 2013, 06:51:11 PM
Something odd has just occurred to me. We all talk about "gender norms" in a pejorative manner, yet it seems that many trans* people want to align themselves with prevailing gender norms. Is this a fair observation? It's just that I'm quite sensitive to how "girlie" or "manly" trans people desire to become, because if I were actually a female I would be quite a tomboy (which is quite hard to explain to people).

Good observation, Jenna.

Due to the circumstances of our socialization and the cultures were were bright up in, it is often difficult to separate gender identity from gender expectations.

I'm just me, and being me means breaking some of those societal rules on how one much act or present.
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E-Brennan

A number of prior replies have hit on what I think the answer to this is.  While gender is a broad spectrum with all manner of variations, on a practical level we inhabit a society where you're either male or female.  And living outside the binary is, well, difficult at the best of times.  For many of us, it's a case of looking at the two available boxes and deciding which would be the best fit, if only because it's convenient on a getting-through-the-day-alive-and-happy level.  And for some, the opposite gender is a perfect fit and the binary works just as it should.

For someone like me, I'd be happy to be put in the "female" box even though it's not quite a perfect fit, a compromise that's good enough to allow me to live a happy, productive life.

Others have different priorities and goals - some want to fight the gender battles in the trenches, some want to express themselves in greater detail, some want to push boundaries and break barriers, etc., and for those individuals, the gender binary really doesn't work at all.  And I, as a trans* person, even though I fit fairly neatly into the binary, will happily smash the binary to pieces if it'll help other trans* people find what they're looking for.
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VeronicaLynn

Quote from: Jenna Stannis on December 31, 2013, 06:51:11 PM
if I were actually a female I would be quite a tomboy (which is quite hard to explain to people).
If I were born a female, I'm sure I would be some sort of butch lesbian, and probably still be, at the very least, gender questioning. I do agree there is some push towards being the opposite binary, and I really don't like it. I don't really see myself being a binary female as any less incorrect as me being a binary male. I may eventually be one who retires from Susan's for this reason, though I'd rather see androgyny be more acceptable, both here and IRL.
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Sammy

Quote from: Jenna Stannis on December 31, 2013, 06:51:11 PM
because if I were actually a female I would be quite a tomboy (which is quite hard to explain to people).

The longer transition goes on, the clearer it becomes that for me there is actually no other choice than to be a sort of tomboy :).
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Feather

Quote from: Emo on January 01, 2014, 11:40:47 AM
@feather
exactly!
i usually prefer genderless activities like watching anime and reading... and music.
Hey I just found this.. another good example..
https://scontent-a-ams.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-frc3/q71/1533941_733725276638453_567127995_n.jpg

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aleon515

I think it's a fair observation. I think though it tends to go with presentation and not how people actually are. I look a lot more "male" (don't think anyone would say that I'm a manly man whatever the heck that is) than I am inside. I do know of tomboy and biker chick type MTFs and it's my observation they get hassled more than I would if I weren't for the femme boi thing (I've never been feminine). It seems like some MTFs are bent on the make up/clothes/presentation advice to these people I know.

--Jay
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Tanya W

Quote from: Jenna Stannis on December 31, 2013, 06:51:11 PM
Something odd has just occurred to me. We all talk about "gender norms" in a pejorative manner, yet it seems that many trans* people want to align themselves with prevailing gender norms.

This is a very resonant observation for me, Jenna. What the specific number of trans people wanting to align themselves with prevailing gender norms is, I really don't know. I do know, however, that the man/woman binary was very much my base assumption when I started exploring my own gender experience in earnest. 'I'm not really a guy,' my thinking went, 'so I must be a girl.'

This gave rise to a whole bunch of ideas about what my future looked like that, over time, started to feel claustrophobic, misguided, forced, and just plain yucky. After a lot of angst and struggle, I went back to square one and really looked at my experience again. This time around, I found: 'I'm not really a guy and I'm not really a girl - so either I'm crazy or there's something inadequate in the whole guy/girl binary.'

Which side of this conclusion (crazy vs inadequate) varies from day to day. But here, Jenna, is one trans person who seems unable to align with prevailing gender norms. Sometimes I wish I could, but truth seems I can't. So I'm now trying to understand how to embody who I am in a very binary world. An interesting process... 
'Though it is the nature of mind to create and delineate forms, and though forms are never perfectly consonant with reality, still there is a crucial difference between a form which closes off experience and a form which evokes and opens it.'
- Susan Griffin
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