Quote from: V M on January 03, 2014, 09:04:41 PM
Basically, this type of behavior relates to insecurity, when a person is truly secure and self assured then there is nothing to prove to anyone in regards to anything including themselves

In other words, if a person is actually secure in themselves then there is no need to go on parade and knock others down in order to prove it

There becomes no need for a conceited 'My this or that or whatever is bigger and better than yours' type of thing

A truly secure individual will be happy that things are going well for them and consider how to help other folks without making a 'Broadway production' out of it

Just some of my thought on the matter

It is just like dudebros getting out that proverbial ruler.   I partly figured out that I was probably supposed to be a girl when I was pondering one day why it was that I always refused to participate in such nonsense.  Girls don't brag.

Quote from: Jill F on January 03, 2014, 09:19:14 PM
Girls don't brag.

LOL... That could possibly be debated, but for the sake of argument I won't go there

Quote from: V M on January 03, 2014, 09:26:48 PM
LOL... That could possibly be debated, but for the sake of argument I won't go there

I'll take it up just because the idea of fooling one's self is a bit of an anathema to me.

@Jill - Falsely attributing behaviour to gender essentialism won't help ya, sweetie. Girls and women brag plenty and sometimes they're more hurtful and obnoxious about it than the chest thumping/pissing contests that guys do.

Anyone who feels insecure in their position at their current social status will brag and belittle if they don't have a strong sense of humility or if their fears overwhelm their manners and social graces... or if they never had social graces in the first place. I've noticed that the trans ownem who do this kind of thing often have a lot of the same combative traits that many people do in regards to telling people what's the 'correct' way to do things as well as masking their insecurities by self-supporting their own personal opinion of their 'successes' by comparison.

This isn't a male or female thing. It's a human thing and while annoying, is understandable, if not in good taste.

Quote from: V M on January 03, 2014, 09:26:48 PM
LOL... That could possibly be debated, but for the sake of argument I won't go there

OK, girls with class don't brag.

I agree with those who've said it's about insecurity. I noticed the same sort of attitude and approach from the "more trans than thou" women I ran into that I did from people who wanted to convince me I had to get a better job, buy a nicer house/car, or have kids. Basically trying to establish that they'd been more successful than me b/c they weren't happy with their own lives.

(I never wanted to be high femme, and there are plenty of cis women who don't do the full-on hyper-feminine thing. Occasionally I still run into someone, cis or trans, who assumes that that means I'm not "serious enough." Too bad; they can either broaden their horizons or be ignored.)

QuoteI agree with those who've said it's about insecurity

I do think that's a lot of it, pretty easy to understand how this would occur. I'm sure some of it is driven by having perhaps a little too much self-esteem. I also think some transwomen may have developed a very narrow ideal of what it means to be a woman. I suppose this is why we need counseling. 

I don't feel there's a huge difference between men and women personally.

In my eyes, the only reason to transition is to be true to yourself, whatever that may be.  Some people are more feminine than masculine and vice versa.  It's irrelevant in my book.  However, I won't lie and say that I'm not confused by some transwomen who are ultra masculine in their personality and presentation.  It's cool for everyone to be themselves, but I find it hard to personally understand those types.  Still, that is more confusion than judgement on my part. To be honest, someone who went through the struggles of being trans should no better than to judge someone for their gender presentation.  The reason I'm transitioning is to feel liberated and be able to live out my dreams.  It's about my happiness and comfort level.  If that doesn't fit into someone else's agenda, then I could care less (well, I sort of do, but I'm working on not caring, lol). 

Tessa, I read your post with rapt interest. During my questioning phase, I saw many expressions on the transgender spectrum. It demonstrated that I was not alone. There were also those who felt superior to the others; something I picked up on early. It's sad that we have to deal with the negativity of others from the outside. When it comes from some in the trans community it can be disconcerting.

Tessa, you feel comfortable as you are and that's important. How others feel about it is immaterial. Those people who heap their negativity on you are, in many cases, still dealing with their own issues. Don't let anyone pigeonhole you into what they think you should be.

Quote from: Victoria Mitchell
Hmm.
I think that there's an interestingly fine line between 'helpful advice' and 'outright pressure to conform'.  I have no patience with it no matter who it's aimed at.

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It can be fun to share tips about dressing, hair and any number of presentation related things but as you point out "when solicited."  I continue to work on being patient with others and myself but not interested in the "how much can I take" endurance thing.

Quote from: Nikko on January 04, 2014, 12:32:44 PM
I do think that's a lot of it, pretty easy to understand how this would occur. I'm sure some of it is driven by having perhaps a little too much self-esteem. I also think some transwomen may have developed a very narrow ideal of what it means to be a woman. I suppose this is why we need counseling. 

I don't feel there's a huge difference between men and women personally.

I agree Nikko and know I have to continue working on my own insecurities.  At some level my insecurity is out there if a stranger can upset me.  I also agree that many of us have that "narrow ideal" where ambiguity is unwelcome.  And those supposed differences between men and women?  Well we pretty much obliterate that line in my book.

LtL and Gennee you remind us of the foundational right to transition IMO, to be true to ourselves. 

Thanks all

Quote from: Nikko on January 04, 2014, 12:32:44 PMI also think some transwomen may have developed a very narrow ideal of what it means to be a woman.

That is certainly apparent in many cases! I watch trans folk discussing everything from how women walk to a supposed love of shoes and I chuckle at such 'canned' and shallow stereotypes. Like every other woman, being a woman is just who you are and the rest of it is about finding your own path and becoming a full and complete human being.

Quote from: Northern Jane on January 04, 2014, 07:33:27 PM
That is certainly apparent in many cases! I watch trans folk discussing everything from how women walk to a supposed love of shoes and I chuckle at such 'canned' and shallow stereotypes. Like every other woman, being a woman is just who you are and the rest of it is about finding your own path and becoming a full and complete human being.

Exactly. I couldn't give a damn about shoes, make-up or any of that junk. All of the obsessing over how you "should" act is really stupid at the end of the day. I'm just me and that's it.

This is one of my big pet hates of trans-social media and forums.
The amount of times I see a topic or post where someone is saying "I've had female orgasms all my life" or "I've always sat down to pee because it feels right" is amazing.

Talking with an online friend, we've both stated that if we had taken another path and not started HRT and had SRS we would be fine, but not as happy as we are now.

I look back on before I came out to my mother, there isn't much I do differently to before.
I still love sport, in fact I would say a little more, i still have male friends, I still have female friends.
I still love photography, I still love movies, I love tech as well, I'm half geek & I've learned how to drink beer, something I never did before HRT.

There are times when I will go weeks without a drop of make up, I wear jeans most days.

I mentioned earlier in the topic, that I am part of the non-binary community.  I really dislike the gender expectation "straightjacket."

I have a feminine side.  I have a masculine side.  Sometimes, I am at a loss of how to properly express either.  But I want my repressed "girl inside" to live and breathe.

My feminine side has more to do with relationships, feelings, empathy, and compassion.  I am trying to learn about the exterior things which can help me with that.  My friend, Sarah7, who is like a role model and big sister, I thought had the right approach.

It's not about the trappings of femininity.  It's about being yourself and being happy with who you are.  That's why I enjoyed Nicole's comment about jeans and no make-up.  I'll never be a cute girl, except in my dreams and aspirations.  But, maybe, I can better express my femininity, and be a better person for it.

Quote from: Nicole on January 04, 2014, 09:56:16 PM
There are times when I will go weeks without a drop of make up, I wear jeans most days.

I remember when I started my transition. I was consumed with the idea that I had to try make up, skirts, all that crap. Well, I tried it and I discovered a few things: Make up is friggin expensive and is a pain in the ass to master. It didn't make that much of a difference to me, not in my eyes anyway. Skirts were annoying and the sizing drove me insane. When I was out and about, I would study what other women wore (I did the same thing in my pre-teen years) and I found that unless they worked in an office or were getting dolled up to go out for the weekend, most dressed pretty casual. Plus, I discovered that....wow...there's all these racks of women's jeans, women's sneakers and I didn't need all of this girly crap because it felt fake on me. I honestly believe that if I had the guts and the luck to transition as a child, I still would have dressed the way that I am now. I just feel more comfortable dressing super casual.

Quote from: Northern Jane on January 04, 2014, 07:33:27 PM
That is certainly apparent in many cases! I watch trans folk discussing everything from how women walk to a supposed love of shoes and I chuckle at such 'canned' and shallow stereotypes. Like every other woman, being a woman is just who you are and the rest of it is about finding your own path and becoming a full and complete human being.

I feel like trans* people get exposed to much of the same social learning about the opposite sex as a cisgender person would! even if they are learning it from the perspective of the wrong sex for them.  So transwomen, for example, learn what men are taught about women.  Since most men are taught some strange and shallow things about women, a fair number of transwomen learn those strange things and then they go into transition thinking that those things are what women are like.  The reverse is true of transmen.  So buying into those stereotypes has a lot to do with that prior socialization and the things that many/most miss out on while growing up.

The extremely masculine presenting transwomen that someone else mentioned may also be experiencing something similar. 

As with all rules, there are exceptions.  Some just take right to a new role.  But for the rest, I think that learning the social expectations that go along with a new gender role takes time and even ah be something people don't want to do.

I'm sure this goes without saying, but the fact that some trans* people may be more or less conforming to social expectations does not make anyone else's identity more or less valid. 

Quote from: Jamie D on January 04, 2014, 10:14:49 PM
I mentioned earlier in the topic, that I am part of the non-binary community.  I really dislike the gender expectation "straightjacket."

Quote

When we do the work to liberate ourselves from that "given" straightjacket it seems, to me, a sweet opportunity to avoid the full tilt expectations of the binary other.  Some may be uncomfortable on the teeter totter but do we want to trade a mandatory suit and tie for a mandatory skirt or dress code?  It is a pure joy to dress as one choses and still recognize their genuine self.  Understanding, avoiding and working thru gender stereotypes is part of transition and maturation IMO.

Gender identity can be distinct and separate from cultural gender roles or for some, completely aligned.  We have plenty of room for everyone eh?